Blind Guides and Deluded Followers

[Spiritual Israelite]

So you are saying the new Jerusalem is actually the church??????

Your error is that you forget basic grammar that this passage is a metaphor. that is made clear by that little word "as".

Did you miss this verse:

Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

After this verse the new Jerusalem is described. So, this verse says that the new Jerusalem IS "the bride, the Lamb's wife".

 

[Timtofly]

So you are saying the new Jerusalem is actually the church??????

Your error is that you forget basic grammar that this passage is a metaphor. that is made clear by that little word "as".

The whole chapter describes the new Jerusalem. so you are saying the bride of Christ (the church) is transformed into a city with gates and walls and roads! Interesting!!

The Millenial kingdom happens about 60 days after Jesus returns. After he defeats the antichrist, gathers the elect from the four corners, judges the sheep and the goats, the kingdom begins. the millenial kingdom will be populated by the surviving trib saints and repopulate the earth.

The marriage is in heaven and we do not procreate- that is for the physical survivors of the trib.

Exactly what happens with the bride during the millenial is not specified. We are on earth for th emarriage supper which takes place on earth after our marriage in heaven (Rev.19) Jesus return (rev 19) and then the wedding feast occurs.

According to you the new Jerusalem is the bride and that means that the church is transformed into the New Jerusalem.

The word church is a metaphor. We can even use church as the body of Christ as pertaining to the post work of the Cross. The New Jerusalem is a literal city, and using the word church describes that city. The people inside that city are allowed to be there as the city itself descends to the earth. The word bride is a metaphor also describing the New Jerusalem. My point is that the New Jerusalem is the church, not Israel descending from heaven.

The New Jerusalem is the new creation of the Garden where the tree of life is. Paradise is transformed into the New Jerusalem. The transition between this creation and the next will be unnoticeable, and God says we will not even remember this creation. We do not know how soon the New Jerusalem descends after the start of the NHNE.

The Millennial Kingdom starts when the 7th Trumpet stops sounding. The NHNE is after the Millennial Kingdom. But those currently in Paradise remain in Paradise, like they have for the last 2 Millennia. Those gathered during the final harvest are the firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom and live on the earth.

The final harvest is gathered after the Second Coming per Matthew 13 and Matthew 25. There is no mention in Scripture, the final harvest will last for 60 days.

Since this marriage is only a metaphor, there is no literal wedding, nor supper. The New Jerusalem is not called the wife, but the bride. So this first metaphorical wedding is still to Israel, and not the church. That is the problem when people fail to see God is still working through Israel during the Millennium, not the church. The church was removed from the earth to wait until after the Millennium. That is why there is a rapture, instead of the church changed on the earth, and don't leave the earth at all.

The rapture does not move us from point A on the earth to point B on the earth. The rapture is to Paradise, where the church waits until the NHNE. The purpose of the Second Coming is to bring Jesus to the Mount of Olives, as the Prince to come for His people Israel. Jesus then sits in judgment over Israel, separating them as sheep and goats. Many of Israel will be tossed into the LOF. That is why it is Jacob's trouble, and the greatest tribulation ever to happen to Israel.

The parable of the 10 virgins could just be referring to Israel and not the church. Part of Israel will leave as the church, but the point was all virgins were of Israel, not of the church, where some church members got left behind. This simply shows some of Israel were part of the church. The rest of Israel will be part of the marriage of Israel to their King. Matthew 25 does not say the church is immediately married. Just that the virgins are taken away. Since this is just metaphor, there is no literal marriage at all. The judgment is for those of Israel still on the earth.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Did you miss this verse:

Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

After this verse the new Jerusalem is described. So, this verse says that the new Jerusalem IS "the bride, the Lamb's wife".

So you believe the church becomes the new Jerusalem with gates and streets of Gold and pearly gates. OK then. we go from people to divine walls and gates and buildings and streets! WOW!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The word church is a metaphor. We can even use church as the body of Christ as pertaining to the post work of the Cross. The New Jerusalem is a literal city, and using the word church describes that city. The people inside that city are allowed to be there as the city itself descends to the earth. The word bride is a metaphor also describing the New Jerusalem. My point is that the New Jerusalem is the church, not Israel descending from heaven.

I know bride is a metaphor, for the sentence shows it is a metaphor. But nowhere is the church used as a metaphor. You need to show the evidence for that.

The New Jerusalem is the new creation of the Garden where the tree of life is. Paradise is transformed into the New Jerusalem. The transition between this creation and the next will be unnoticeable, and God says we will not even remember this creation. We do not know how soon the New Jerusalem descends after the start of the NHNE.

It has been teh eternal city of God. It is not new. It is new on earth but has been the eternal city of God.

The Millennial Kingdom starts when the 7th Trumpet stops sounding. The NHNE is after the Millennial Kingdom. But those currently in Paradise remain in Paradise, like they have for the last 2 Millennia. Those gathered during the final harvest are the firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom and live on the earth.

Paradise was absorbed into0 heaven when Jesus ascended as Paul declared in Ephesians.

Since this marriage is only a metaphor, there is no literal wedding, nor supper. The New Jerusalem is not called the wife, but the bride. So this first metaphorical wedding is still to Israel, and not the church. That is the problem when people fail to see God is still working through Israel during the Millennium, not the church. The church was removed from the earth to wait until after the Millennium. That is why there is a rapture, instead of the church changed on the earth, and don't leave the earth at all.

Well this charge doesn't apply to me as I have taught on previous threads extensively on how Israel as a nation and people is the focal point of teh millenial kingdom as declared by man of the prophets.

The rapture does not move us from point A on the earth to point B on the earth. The rapture is to Paradise, where the church waits until the NHNE. The purpose of the Second Coming is to bring Jesus to the Mount of Olives, as the Prince to come for His people Israel. Jesus then sits in judgment over Israel, separating them as sheep and goats. Many of Israel will be tossed into the LOF. That is why it is Jacob's trouble, and the greatest tribulation ever to happen to Israel.

If by Prince to come, you are refeerring to Daniel 9 you are woefully mistaken. Jesus returns not as Prince but as king of Kings! David will be prince in the millenial kingdom.

The sheep and goat judgments is for the nations as is written, and not Israel. Teh 1/3 of Israel that survives the tribulation will all be saved as is declared in Ezekiel and ZECH and Romans

The parable of the 10 virgins could just be referring to Israel and not the church. Part of Israel will leave as the church, but the point was all virgins were of Israel, not of the church, where some church members got left behind. This simply shows some of Israel were part of the church. The rest of Israel will be part of the marriage of Israel to their King. Matthew 25 does not say the church is immediately married. Just that the virgins are taken away. Since this is just metaphor, there is no literal marriage at all. The judgment is for those of Israel still on the earth.

While there is much disagreement on the meaning, I am convinced it is people left behind after the rapture. The rapture is Jesus coming for HIs bride to we her (the church) and those left behind are shut out of the wedding! If they do get saved- they become tribulation saints and are not part of the church!

Here is a short read that shows wonderfully Jesus relation to His espoused (the church) and the Jewish wedding system of Jesus day, that all of the writers of Scripture would have been very familiar with. MOst likely it was the only way of wedding they knew of!

https://arielcontent.org/dcs/pdf/mbs113m.pdf

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So you believe the church becomes the new Jerusalem with gates and streets of Gold and pearly gates. OK then. we go from people to divine walls and gates and buildings and streets! WOW!

LOL. Are you being serious or trying to be a clown? Of course I am not saying we literally become "divine walls and gates and buildings and streets". You are missing the symbolism there. Why do you take a book like Revelation that was purposely "signified" (Rev 1:1) so literally? We're talking about a book containing references to things like a harlot woman sitting on many waters while riding on a beast with seven heads and ten horns and your assumption about any given verse or passage is that you should take it all literally? That makes no sense. You're not using any spiritual discernment at all here. You apparently think you can figure this all out on your own without any help from the Holy Spirit.

I don't believe the church becomes the new heavenly Jerusalem, I believe the church IS the new heavenly Jerusalem now.

Hebrews 12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, 19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: 20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: 21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake) 22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Galatians 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

 

[Timtofly]

I know bride is a metaphor, for the sentence shows it is a metaphor. But nowhere is the church used as a metaphor. You need to show the evidence for that.

It has been teh eternal city of God. It is not new. It is new on earth but has been the eternal city of God.

Paradise was absorbed into0 heaven when Jesus ascended as Paul declared in Ephesians.

Well this charge doesn't apply to me as I have taught on previous threads extensively on how Israel as a nation and people is the focal point of teh millenial kingdom as declared by man of the prophets.

If by Prince to come, you are refeerring to Daniel 9 you are woefully mistaken. Jesus returns not as Prince but as king of Kings! David will be prince in the millenial kingdom.

The sheep and goat judgments is for the nations as is written, and not Israel. Teh 1/3 of Israel that survives the tribulation will all be saved as is declared in Ezekiel and ZECH and Romans

While there is much disagreement on the meaning, I am convinced it is people left behind after the rapture. The rapture is Jesus coming for HIs bride to we her (the church) and those left behind are shut out of the wedding! If they do get saved- they become tribulation saints and are not part of the church!

Here is a short read that shows wonderfully Jesus relation to His espoused (the church) and the Jewish wedding system of Jesus day, that all of the writers of Scripture would have been very familiar with. MOst likely it was the only way of wedding they knew of!

https://arielcontent.org/dcs/pdf/mbs113m.pdf

Church means a called out assembly. That is a metaphor. Can you see this called out assembly? Do you know who is saved and who is not? Do you know everyone's heart?

The New Jerusalem will not exist until the NHNE. It is currently not in existence.

Paradise was never in the earth. Paradise was taken to heaven, that is where Enoch went, so at that point or before, Eden ceased to be a location on the earth. The Tree of life was never in sheol. Why would you think it went there?

So why do you put the marriage of the church prior to the institution of the marriage to Israel, which is the Millennial Kingdom?

The church is still a bride, not some wife left in Paradise while Jesus consummates a relationship with Israel on the earth. This is only metaphor anyway. Being married or not does not prove anything. The church is not eternally living on the earth now, why would that start a thousand years before God said the church comes down in the New Jerusalem? Israel does not come down, as Israel was a nation on the earth during the Millennium. The church is not even currently in heaven as that place is for sons of God. The church is only a called out assembly while on earth while in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. No one is in Adam's dead corruptible flesh in Paradise currently. Most don't even think they have physical bodies yet. How does the term "church" apply to a soul or group of souls? A literal church in English is a literal building where people leave the cares of life behind a few times a week, and fellowship around the Word of God. That is still a called out assembly.

The sheep and goats are Israel being called out of all nations, where they have been scattered for over 2700 years since 720BC. Still calling Israel Gentiles with that interpretation. Israel has always been referred to as sheep. Being a goat is God rejecting Israel, still a metaphor not literal sheep and goats. The marriage, bride, wife, divorced wife was applied to Israel way before it was applied to the church. Paul just carried on that Israel connotation and applied it to the church, to teach a husband how to treat a wife. Jesus is still referring to Israel, as that is the attention on earth at the Second Coming, as the church was removed from the earth, and no longer part of the picture.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The New Jerusalem will not exist until the NHNE. It is currently not in existence.

Proof?

Church means a called out assembly. That is a metaphor. Can you see this called out assembly? Do you know who is saved and who is not? Do you know everyone's heart?

Yes and it has come to mean the body of Christ since Pentecost. it is a generic term that now has a specified meaning for spiritual people.

Paradise was never in the earth. Paradise was taken to heaven, that is where Enoch went, so at that point or before, Eden ceased to be a location on the earth. The Tree of life was never in sheol. Why would you think it went there?

Paradise is al;so called Abrahams bosom. It was the place in hell where the righteous dead went until Jesus ascended into heaven. then He took Paradise/Abrahams Bosom with Him.

So why do you put the marriage of the church prior to the institution of the marriage to Israel, which is the Millennial Kingdom?

Israel was married to the Father and divorced. Israel will be remarried to God, but the Church is the espoused to Jesus and we wed in heaven as is written.

How does the term "church" apply to a soul or group of souls? A literal church in English is a literal building where people leave the cares of life behind a few times a week, and fellowship around the Word of God. That is still a called out assembly.

The church consists of all believers saved from Pentecost untill the rapture sometime prior to the tribulation. The church is the espoused to jesus and we wed in heaven, after the bema seat judgment.

The sheep and goats are Israel being called out of all nations, where they have been scattered for over 2700 years since 720BC. Still calling Israel Gentiles with that interpretation. Israel has always been referred to as sheep. Being a goat is God rejecting Israel, still a metaphor not literal sheep and goats. The marriage, bride, wife, divorced wife was applied to Israel way before it was applied to the church. Paul just carried on that Israel connotation and applied it to the church, to teach a husband how to treat a wife. Jesus is still referring to Israel, as that is the attention on earth at the Second Coming, as the church was removed from the earth, and no longer part of the picture.

If by this you are referring to this passage:

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

YOu are simply wrong!

Jesus gather all ethnos groups (Gentiles) It says so right in 32. One has to redefine Scripture to make this say Israel.

All Israel is saved prior to Jesus returning. they will consist of 1/3 of all Israel that entered into the tribulation.

Ezekiel 20:33-38

King James Version

​

33 As I live, saith the Lord God, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:
34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.
35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.
36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord God.
37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:
38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

Zechariah 13:8-9

King James Version

​

8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.


As a matter of fact, the basis for Jesus return to earth is this 1/3 remnant of Israel having their veil removed.

2 Corinthians 3:12-16

King James Version

​

12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

Then the 1/3 remnanat will cry out "Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord, bringing Jesus back to earth!

Matthew 23:36-39

King James Version

​

36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

 

[Timtofly]

YOu are simply wrong!

So I am wrong, and then you quote verses that God calls Israel out of all nations?

Israel has become all ethnicities, but God knows who are Israel, and who are not.

This creation stops existing when Jesus hands back creation to God. The New Jerusalem would stop existing, if it was part of current creation. It cannot exist until the next creation starts.

The Garden of Eden did not exist prior to Genesis 1:1.

The Garden or Paradise where the tree of life has always existed was never in sheol.

Abraham's bosom was in sheol. It would have been called Paradise not Abraham's bosom if the tree of life was in sheol. Paradise was banned from Adam's offspring, even souls could not enter Paradise, until the Cross, and the OT redeemed were given permanent incorruptible physical bodies to eat from the tree of life in Paradise.

The church remains in Paradise during the Day of the Lord.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

So I am wrong, and then you quote verses that God calls Israel out of all nations?

Israel has become all ethnicities, but God knows who are Israel, and who are not.

That is you and not the bible speaking.

When Jesus said those words ethnos meant gentiles. You have no authority to retranslate it!

The Garden of Eden did not exist prior to Genesis 1:1.

The Garden or Paradise where the tree of life has always existed was never in sheol.

Agreed! but Israel in teh days of Jesus called Paradise/ Abrahams bosom as the righteous part of hell.

The penitent thief would not have gone to heaven on the day He and Jesus died. His soul went to hell aka Abrahams Bosom/Paradise. His soul did not go to heaven until Jesus ascended. As declared in Phillipians.

Abraham's bosom was in sheol. It would have been called Paradise not Abraham's bosom if the tree of life was in sheol. Paradise was banned from Adam's offspring, even souls could not enter Paradise, until the Cross, and the OT redeemed were given permanent incorruptible physical bodies to eat from the tree of life in Paradise.

The church remains in Paradise during the Day of the Lord.

Once again you make a statement about Paradise and the tree that has no basis in Scripture.

Please show from Scripture where it says souls could not enter paradise.

 

[Timtofly]

That is you and not the bible speaking.

When Jesus said those words ethnos meant gentiles. You have no authority to retranslate it!

Agreed! but Israel in teh days of Jesus called Paradise/ Abrahams bosom as the righteous part of hell.

The penitent thief would not have gone to heaven on the day He and Jesus died. His soul went to hell aka Abrahams Bosom/Paradise. His soul did not go to heaven until Jesus ascended. As declared in Phillipians.

Once again you make a statement about Paradise and the tree that has no basis in Scripture.

Please show from Scripture where it says souls could not enter paradise.

I am not retranslating the word for nations as you define ethnos as Gentiles.

"And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:"

Jesus is separating His people, the sheep, as a Shepherd would. That is the same reference to:

"These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

"And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs."

Jesus never referred to Gentiles as you put it as sheep. But at the Second Coming, his people, the sheep, will be scattered throughout all Gentiles (as you put it). Some of Israel will still be considered not of His fold. That is why they are goats.


You have the impression that all humanity will be tossed into the LOF at the same time. No. The church is removed first which includes many of Israel, and many Gentiles.

Then, the angels gather all of Israel back to Jerusalem from all over, not all of humanity at one time. The Gentiles are not gathered to Jerusalem to stand before their King, because the 7th Trumpet has not sounded, and Jesus is not the king over every nation. Jesus is only the King of Israel, at the Second Coming after He sets up His glorious throne in His own Temple, that is mentioned in Revelation 11. The Temple is already set up prior to the 7th Trumpet even sounding.

Paradise was never called Abraham's bosom, by any OT participant in the Covenant given to Moses. You don't understand Genesis 3:24

"So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life."

The Tree of life was never in Abraham's bosom / sheol. Since the NT states the tree of life is in Paradise, that means Paradise could never have been Abraham's bosom.

The word Paradise is found 3 times in Scripture, but we know from these 3 times that the tree of life is still in Paradise. Paradise is called the third heaven. The thief was in Paradise, that day with the Lord God who created Paradise as the Garden of Eden, over 4,000 years prior to the Cross.


The thief did not have to go to Abrahams bosom. They all came out before the thief died hours later. It is you who cannot understand that all the souls came out of Abraham's bosom in physical bodies before the thief himself physically died. Abraham's bosom was dissolved the instant Jesus said, "It is finished". The thief could not go to Abraham's bosom, but had to go to Paradise where the tree of life was when he physically died.

Would you not say the OT ended at that moment, and the NT was instated at that moment? The thief was the first NT convert by Jesus personally.

Do you not even bother to read the 3 verses where the word Paradise is even mentioned, before objecting to my point? You are going on tradition, and not even Scripture yourself.

Why would a physical body without a soul be not allowed in Paradise where the tree of life was until the physical act of the Cross happened? It is the soul that needed redemption, not the physical body. How could Adam send his body into the Garden, while his soul remained at home wherever he lived? The fact that a soul could not even enter the Garden, now called Paradise, the third heaven, was explained by the fact all were waiting in Abraham's bosom, until the physical act of the Cross. Only Enoch and Moses could have entered prior to the Cross, because they were the 2 OT witnesses to all of God's creation, and met with Jesus on the mount of Transfiguration, and then returned to Paradise, as they already had permanent incorruptible physical bodies. Enoch was translated that he should not see death. Enoch was physically alive from that moment on. You will probably say, no that was Elijah. Well he is more than likely the same person sent to earth on several occasions.

Jesus was not inventing a new place, nor calling this place Abraham's bosom to avoid using the word Paradise. It was not Paradise, so that is why Jesus called where those souls were, Abraham's bosom. Paul later even said he was allowed to visit Paradise even before physical death, some how. Either when he was stoned and left for dead (a near death experience), or God allowed him an opportunity. Both that and when the thief physically died was post the Cross, and the institution of the NT.

Until you provide a verse stating that the Garden of Eden took the tree of life to sheol, so souls could look at it in Abraham's bosom, I will continue to point out Enoch was able to enter, the third heaven/Paradise even before the Flood. Eventually, guarding it with an angel on the earth was no longer a reality. The Garden left earth at one point and since no one was even, as a soul, allowed into Paradise, when the physical body died, why would it have been called Abraham's bosom located in sheol? I don't see why Enoch would not be in Paradise from the time he was not found until today, except for when he was sent to earth by God.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You have the impression that all humanity will be tossed into the LOF at the same time. No. The church is removed first which includes many of Israel, and many Gentiles.

No I do not.

Until you provide a verse stating that the Garden of Eden took the tree of life to sheol, so souls could look at it in Abraham's bosom, I will continue to point out Enoch was able to enter, the third heaven/Paradise even before the Flood. Eventually, guarding it with an angel on the earth was no longer a reality. The Garden left earth at one point and since no one was even, as a soul, allowed into Paradise, when the physical body died, why would it have been called Abraham's bosom located in sheol? I don't see why Enoch would not be in Paradise from the time he was not found until today, except for when he was sent to earth by God.

As I do not believe this, I cannot give you a verse.

Tehegarden was destroyed! Enoch was caught up to heaven.

Jesus was not inventing a new place, nor calling this place Abraham's bosom to avoid using the word Paradise. It was not Paradise, so that is why Jesus called where those souls were, Abraham's bosom. Paul later even said he was allowed to visit Paradise even before physical death, some how. Either when he was stoned and left for dead (a near death experience), or God allowed him an opportunity. Both that and when the thief physically died was post the Cross, and the institution of the NT.

Paradise and Abrahams Bosom were two names for the same place- the compartment of hell where the righteous dead went upon death.

Paul was caught up to paradise after jesus took it with Him when He ascended, before Paul was caught up.

Why would a physical body without a soul be not allowed in Paradise where the tree of life was until the physical act of the Cross happened?

The bible doesn't say the tree of life stayed with Paradise. That is your conjecture.

 

[strepho]

It's the shepherds fault. Their withholding the truth from people. Some of the shepherds are not qualified to teach God's word. They go to seminary and think thier teachers of God's word. Teaching traditions of men and false doctrine.
Zephniah chapter 3 tells us about priests who polluted the sanctuary.

Malachi chapter 2 tells us, priests lips are to contain knowledge.

Making money off sins.
How??
Setting up confession booths in some churches. Priests practice absolution.

Not telling thier flock to repent.

Teaching rapture. Its false doctrine.
Accepting sodomy.
We see why God is angry with these play actors.

Jeremiah chapter 25.
Jesus returns 7th trump
He will put stop to hunting grounds for false preachers.

Currently, we're at wars and rumors of wars. We're closer to 6th trump. Satan as antichrist will come 6th trump to Jerusalem, documentation, second thessalonians chapter 2.

Spirtual darkness is coming, and cover the earth. Those who are biblically illiterate will worship antichrist near future.

Now is time to have gospel armory on. Read ephesians.

Lies and deception are main tools for antichrist.

Get away from the false preachers. Sound doctrine.

 

[Timtofly]

No I do not.

As I do not believe this, I cannot give you a verse.

Tehegarden was destroyed! Enoch was caught up to heaven.

Paradise and Abrahams Bosom were two names for the same place- the compartment of hell where the righteous dead went upon death.

Paul was caught up to paradise after jesus took it with Him when He ascended, before Paul was caught up.

The bible doesn't say the tree of life stayed with Paradise. That is your conjecture.

You are saying that the Garden was destroyed and the tree moved. That is your guesswork. God took the Garden to heaven and it was Paradise always with the tree of life.

There is no Scripture that states Paradise was opened so dead people could enter.

There is no Scripture that states God ever lifted the ban to Paradise, or physically moved Paradise to sheol and then to heaven.

The Cross opened the gates of Paradise, so redeemed humans could physically enter.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You are saying that the Garden was destroyed and the tree moved. That is your guesswork. God took the Garden to heaven and it was Paradise always with the tree of life.

If the garden was still on earth by the time of Noah, yes it was destroyed. We know by the time of the flood, the tree of life was back in heaven. For everything on the earth was destroyed by the flood.

Well you can take it up wioth the Jews of Jesus day. For they called Abrahams Bosom, paradise. Jesus also called it that on the cross. for Jesus did not go to heaven when He died, but went to the righteous compartment of hell.

Even in His resurrection He told Mary not to touch Him for He had not yet ascended to His Father. So if Paradise was in heaven, Jesus lied to Mary for He had gone to heaven and took the penitent thief with Him.

See we have to look at th4e whole conseil of Scripture/.

 

[Timtofly]

If the garden was still on earth by the time of Noah, yes it was destroyed. We know by the time of the flood, the tree of life was back in heaven. For everything on the earth was destroyed by the flood.

Well you can take it up wioth the Jews of Jesus day. For they called Abrahams Bosom, paradise. Jesus also called it that on the cross. for Jesus did not go to heaven when He died, but went to the righteous compartment of hell.

Even in His resurrection He told Mary not to touch Him for He had not yet ascended to His Father. So if Paradise was in heaven, Jesus lied to Mary for He had gone to heaven and took the penitent thief with Him.

See we have to look at th4e whole conseil of Scripture/.

You would have to quote some Jewish source to prove your point.

Jesus knew that Paradise and the tree of life had been in heaven since it was moved there prior to the Flood.

Your point either makes Jesus ignorant, or a liar. The word Paradise is not found in the OT, as the place where the tree of life existed, which is the basis for Jewish theology. Now post 70AD, Jewish writings may say anything.

Jesus called the place in sheol, Abraham's bosom. Jesus called Paradise the place in heaven where God was. So did Paul. Jesus never conflated Paradise with Abraham's bosom. I am still confounded why you don't think the thief went to heaven? Is that not where you expect to go after physical death?

The Cross allowed entrance into Paradise. The thief died after Jesus declared, "It is finished". Now if the thief died first before, Jesus, I could get your point. But the Roman crucifixion was a long painful process, and eventually a soldier had to make sure one was dead, by breaking their bones. Jesus was already dead when the soldiers came around later to see who was still alive. It is assumed the thief was still alive, and was mercifully killed by the soldier, who declared death official. Otherwise the thief could have remained alive for dozens of hours, up to 4 days.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Jesus knew that Paradise and the tree of life had been in heaven since it was moved there prior to the Flood.

YOu would need to cite some source to prove your point.

But Jesus forbade Mary in the garden to touch Him for He told her He had not yet gone to heaven (John 20:17) But yet He told the thief that on that day (Friday) he would be with Jesus in paradise. So either Jesus was lying to teh thief or to Mary.

Jesus called the place in sheol, Abraham's bosom. Jesus called Paradise the place in heaven where God was.

And the verses to back this up?

So did Paul. Jesus never conflated Paradise with Abraham's bosom. I am still confounded why you don't think the thief went to heaven? Is that not where you expect to go after physical death?

I agree Paul went to heaven and went to paradise. It was taken to heaven when Jesus ascended.

OY saints did not go to heaven at death. They went to Abrahams bosom/hades/sheol/hell/paradise.

New Testament​

The phrase "bosom of Abraham" occurs only once in the New Testament, in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus in the gospel of Luke (Luke 16:22). Leprous Lazarus is carried by the angels to that destination after death. Abraham's bosom contrasts with the destination of a rich man who ends up in Hades (see Luke 16:19-31). The account corresponds closely with documented 1st century AD Jewish beliefs (see above), that the dead were gathered into a general tarrying-place, made equivalent with the Sheol of the Old Testament. In Christ's account, the righteous occupied an abode of their own, which was distinctly separated by a chasm from the abode to which the wicked were consigned. The chasm is equivalent to the river in the Jewish version, but in Christ's version there is no angelic ferryman, and it is impossible to pass from one side to the other.

The fiery part of Hades (Hebrew Sheol) is distinguished from the separate Old Testament, New Testament and Mishnah concept of Gehenna (Hebrew Hinnom), which is generally connected with the Last Judgment. Matthew 5:29–30; 18:9ff, Mark 9:42.[17]

The concept of paradise is not mentioned in Luke 16, nor are any of the distinguishing Jewish associations of paradise such as Third Heaven (found with "paradise" in 2 Corinthians 12:2–4 and Apocalypse of Moses), or the tree of life (found with "paradise" in Genesis 2:8 Septuagint and Book of Revelation 2:7).[18] Consequently, identification of Bosom of Abraham with Paradise is contested.[19] It is not clear whether Matthew 8:11 "And I tell you that many will come from the East and West and will eat with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven." represents an alternative or complementary cosmology to the ideas of Luke 16:19–31.[20]

"And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”"Luke 23:43, ESV.

The Greek word used for paradise (Παραδείσῳ) has three meanings, according to Strong's Concordance:

1. A garden, taken from the ancient Persion word for garden. This makes sense in the context of Adam and Eve, when we speak of them as having lived in paradise.
2. The bosom of Abraham, that part of Sheol(or Hades, the grave) where the righteous rest, awaiting resurrection.
3. An upper region in the heavens (cf. 2 Corinthians 12:4)

Which one of these does the text in question mean? It looks like Strong's directly point out to number 2, but also admitting not everyone agrees with that. But why? What are the arguments for any of the views?

Does Jesus refer to the heaven as upper region, or the common grave of the righteous?

And from the Jewish Encyclopedia:

ABRAHAM'S BOSOM:​

By: Kaufmann Kohler​

In the New Testament and in Jewish writings a term signifying the abodeof bliss in the other world. According to IV Macc. xiii. 17, the righteous who die for their faith are received by Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in paradise (compare Matt. viii. 11: "Many shall come from the east and the west and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven"). In Ḳid. 72b, Adda bar Ahaba, a rabbi of the third century, is said to be "sitting in the bosom of Abraham," which means that he has entered paradise. With this should be compared the statement of R. Levi (Gen. R. xlviii.): "In the world to come Abraham sits at the gate of Gehenna, permitting none to enter who bears the seal of the covenant" (see Circumcision).
In the Hellenistic Testament of Abraham it is Adam, the representative of humanity, who sits at the gate of hell and paradise; the Jewish view of later times placed Abraham, the progenitor of Israel, in Adam's place. This was also the view of the New Testament writers as presented in Luke, xvi. 19-31, the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Lazarus, the beggar, died and was carried by the angels into Abraham's Bosom; the rich man died and was put into Gehenna, where he saw Lazarus in the Bosom of Abraham, full of joy, whereas he suffered great torment. Thereat he cried: "Father Abraham, have mercy on me!" and finally he asked Abraham to send Lazarus to his father's house to admonish his five brothers to lead lives characterized by repentance, in order not to meet the same fate as his own. Whereupon Abraham said: "They have the law of Moses and the teachings of the prophets; let them be mindful of these, and they will enter paradise as well as Lazarus." On Lazarus (Eliezer) and Abraham see Geiger's "Jüdische Zeitschrift für Wissenschaft und Leben," vii. 200. It is plain that Abraham is here viewed as the warden of paradise, like Michael in Jewish and St. Peter in Christian folk-lore ("Texts and Studies," v. 55, 69, Cambridge). Of Abraham as attorney pleading for Israel, R. Jonathan also speaks (Shab. 89b).

Jesus went to paradise with the thief, but did not go to heaven.

That is why He forbad Mary to touch HIm.

 

[Keraz]

"And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”"Luke 23:43, ESV.

The comma must be after 'today', not before.
Proved by how Jesus went preach to the spirits in prison, 1 Peter 3:19

The whole idea of 'Paradise' and of people going to heaven at death, is false and a contradiction of Bible truths. The dead know nothing and they lie in their graves until the Last Trump, to call everyone to stand before God in Judgment. Revelation 20:11-15

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The comma must be after 'today', not before.
Proved by how Jesus went preach to the spirits in prison, 1 Peter 3:19

The whole idea of 'Paradise' and of people going to heaven at death, is false and a contradiction of Bible truths. The dead know nothing and they lie in their graves until the Last Trump, to call everyone to stand before God in Judgment. Revelation 20:11-15

You contradicted yourself here and you didn't even realize it. If the dead know nothing, then how could Jesus have went and preached to the spirits in prison? If what you said was true then they would have no consciousness. How could Jesus preach to people with no consciousness?

Soul sleep is a false doctrine. The following makes it abundantly clear that souls/spirits have consciousness when they are either in heaven/paradise or in hell/Hades.

Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Some, including probably you, try to say this is just another one of Jesus's parable, but His parables were fictional stories that illustrated things that were true in reality. This is not a parable in that sense. If it's a parable, then it's a true parable and unlike any other parable Jesus told.

Jesus very clearly indicated here that people have consciousness after death. He may have figuratively described the rich man's torment, but the fact that he is in torment of some kind is very clear. And, since Jesus had not died and taking the souls/spirits of His people to heaven/paradise yet at this point, the place where the souls of dead believers went was known as "Abraham's bosom" at that time.

 

[Keraz]

You contradicted yourself here and you didn't even realize it. If the dead know nothing, then how could Jesus have went and preached to the spirits in prison? If what you said was true then they would have no consciousness. How could Jesus preach to people with no consciousness?

I believe those 'spirits' were fallen angels.
They have to be, otherwise the Bible contradicts itself. Eccl 9:5

Jesus very clearly indicated here that people have consciousness after death. He may have figuratively described the rich man's torment, but the fact that he is in torment of some kind is very clear. And, since Jesus had not died and taking the souls/spirits of His people to heaven/paradise yet at this point, the place where the souls of dead believers went was known as "Abraham's bosom" at that time.

The idea of the dead having consciousness, is taught by many philosophies. It is a satanic lie, pure and simple.
People who believe the Parable of the rich man and the beggar, is an actual event; are deceived and have the wrong impression of our status in Gods scheme of things. We are just dust, [the elements] and to dust we return.
Only those who prove their faith and trust in the Lord through all that must happen, will receive immortality at the final Judgment, as God brings every soul back into consciousness. Rev 20:11-15

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I believe those 'spirits' were fallen angels.

Why would Jesus preach to fallen angels? What nonsense. I can't take this seriously.

They have to be, otherwise the Bible contradicts itself. Eccl 9:5

You contradict the Bible.

The idea of the dead having consciousness, is taught by many philosophies. It is a satanic lie, pure and simple.

It is a satanic lie to teach otherwise, since Jesus Himself taught it.

People who believe the Parable of the rich man and the beggar, is an actual event; are deceived and have the wrong impression of our status in Gods scheme of things. We are just dust, [the elements] and to dust we return.

You are deceived. Parables don't refer to real people and places like Luke 16:19-31 does. You are denying the obvious truth that Jesus taught there because you believe what you want to believe instead of what scripture teaches.

Only those who prove their faith and trust in the Lord through all that must happen, will receive immortality at the final Judgment, as God brings every soul back into consciousness. Rev 20:11-15

You are deceived. The souls of the dead in Christ are in heaven now and can communicate with Him there (Revelation 6:9-11).