Elect or Not Elect: Why ALL Should Be Alarmed

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes, but you're saying that His grace is dependent upon our belief,

Actually. I am not saying this he did he said this in eph 1: 13 - 14, Eph 2: 8.

and this is not the case; in fact, that is directly opposite what Paul says in Romans 9:14-18, and specifically verse 16 (underlined):

"What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, Who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' So then He has mercy on whomever He wills, and he hardens whomever He wills."​

And by so doing, you are inadvertently making God's grace ~ God's unmerited favor ~ out to be something other than grace, to be merited rather than unmerited.

Nice try. But your not thinking

For it is ny GRACE I have been saved THROUGH FAITH.

You can not remove faiht from the question. Even in John 3, when jesus said we must be born again, It is through faith.

I can not will myself to heave, how anyone can even think this is beyond me.

I trust HIM to save me,,

Yes, but our belief and trust is a result of the faith given us, as are our good works. Ezekiel 36 ~ which Paul is directly referring to ~ gives us a fuller picture of Who precipitates what ~ and what precipitates what ~ in this great salvation, which is of the Lord. God Himself says, through Ezekiel:

"I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes and be careful to obey My rules. You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God." (Ezekiel 36:24-28)​

Yes, but this trust and belief is a result of faith, which, again, is God's assurance, and conviction by the Holy Spirit. Does anyone assure and convict himself/herself, EG? If so, it is really empty, devoid of real substance... a wish, basically, and our saving faith ~ which, once given, is certainly ours ~ is certainly not empty. devoid of substance, or a wish. The Holy Spirit works this saving faith in us at the time we are born again of the Spirit... and grows it through the course of our new life in Christ.

We are still born again AFTER we have faith. Not because of it

You have us made alive while still under th penalty of sin. God can not go against his own justice.

He certainly does. :)


Right, dead in our sin, so we were previously unable to do anything to please God.

You did not read the passage, you did what i said you di, You picked one small part of the passage out. And told me what you think it means

I will stick to the word. He said it is by GRACE THROUGH FAITH. That I was made alive..

It might be better to say we were previously wholly inclined and thus absolutely unwilling to do anything to please God or to do His will, and actually wholly inclined and absolutely willing to do the opposite, to do the will of the father of the natural man, the devil. Remember again what Jesus said to the Jews He was speaking to at the Feast of Dedication in John 10:24-31...

I do not call out to God to please him, I call out to him because I have repented. Like the tax collector. The tax collector was ot tryign to please God he was trying to recieve Gods mercy, because he became poor in spirit. Unable to even look up at God

"...the Jews gathered around Him and said to Him, 'How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.' Jesus answered them, 'I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among My sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, Who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.'"​

They did not believe BECAUSE they were not given to Jesus by the Father and therefore not among His sheep. Their unbelief is a result of NOT having been given to Jesus and therefore not among His sheep, not the other way around.

They were not given because they did not believe..

Right, including working this salvific faith in us.

Yes, but he did not have to make me born again for this to happen. God can do whatever he wants.

It would probably help to dismiss the wrongheaded idea of "fatalism," and to come to the realization of just how undeserved and absolutely amazing God's grace is. :) John Newton...

No. Fatalism is what you are preaching.

There is no grace in fatalism. I am sorry, but that is just what I believe

Amazing grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me! I once was lost, but now am found, was blind, but now I see!​

'Twas grace that taught my heart to fear, and grace my fears relieved! How precious did that grace appear The hour I first believed!​

Our belief does not bring God's grace. Our belief is the result of God's grace. We then freely and willingly walk in His statutes and are careful to obey His rules.

No. Our belief is what allows God to apply his faith to us.

God will not force us to recieve him, nor will he force us to reject him

I don't think so... :)


Your faith is in God, for sure. But "of yourself" in that you brought it to be within yourself is not the case. No, because of the new spirit that God has given you, because He has removed the heart of stone from your flesh and given you a heart of flesh, because He has put His Spirit within you, this is why you have saving faith.

No. I did not trust myself.

what part of this do you fail to understand.

who is a person trusting. Is he trusting himself. And his works, his goodness, or his religion. or does he get on his or her knees and trust God?

i called out to God.

Woodenly speaking, yes, we can do anything, even repent. But if we are dead in our sin, EG, which is our natural state ~ naturally, we are not of God; as Christians this is our former nature ~ we are 100 percent inclined not to repent, and therefore will never do so.

This is nonsense, in fact. If we were not dead WE COULD NOT REPENT because we would already be alive, and would have nothing to change our view about.

But, if we are born again of the Spirit, we will then, because of our new nature, which is of God, be 100 percent inclined to repent, and will therefore not fail to do so. It is God Who, in the words of Isaiah (35), opens the eyes of the blind, unstops the ears of the deaf, enables the lame man to leap like a deer the tongue of the mute to sing for joy. Even though you (and I) were formerly 100 percent inclined against Him, God chose to have mercy and compassion on us and made us His. This is how amazing God's grace is.

wrong, we can not be born again in sin, you have us made alive while still under th penalty of sin, Again, god can nto go against his justice.

Grace and peace to you!

Grace and peace to you also

 

[One 2 question]

Yes, but you're saying that His grace is dependent upon our belief, and this is not the case; in fact, that is directly opposite what Paul says in Romans 9:14-18, and specifically verse 16 (underlined):

"What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, Who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' So then He has mercy on whomever He wills, and he hardens whomever He wills."​

And by so doing, you are inadvertently making God's grace ~ God's unmerited favor ~ out to be something other than grace, to be merited rather than unmerited.


Yes, but our belief and trust is a result of the faith given us, as are our good works. Ezekiel 36 ~ which Paul is directly referring to ~ gives us a fuller picture of Who precipitates what ~ and what precipitates what ~ in this great salvation, which is of the Lord. God Himself says, through Ezekiel:

"I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes and be careful to obey My rules. You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God." (Ezekiel 36:24-28)​

Yes, but this trust and belief is a result of faith, which, again, is God's assurance, and conviction by the Holy Spirit. Does anyone assure and convict himself/herself, EG? If so, it is really empty, devoid of real substance... a wish, basically, and our saving faith ~ which, once given, is certainly ours ~ is certainly not empty. devoid of substance, or a wish. The Holy Spirit works this saving faith in us at the time we are born again of the Spirit... and grows it through the course of our new life in Christ.


He certainly does. :)


Right, dead in our sin, so we were previously unable to do anything to please God. It might be better to say we were previously wholly inclined and thus absolutely unwilling to do anything to please God or to do His will, and actually wholly inclined and absolutely willing to do the opposite, to do the will of the father of the natural man, the devil. Remember again what Jesus said to the Jews He was speaking to at the Feast of Dedication in John 10:24-31...

"...the Jews gathered around Him and said to Him, 'How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.' Jesus answered them, 'I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among My sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, Who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.'"​

They did not believe BECAUSE they were not given to Jesus by the Father and therefore not among His sheep. Their unbelief is a result of NOT having been given to Jesus and therefore not among His sheep, not the other way around.


Right, including working this salvific faith in us.


It would probably help to dismiss the wrongheaded idea of "fatalism," and to come to the realization of just how undeserved and absolutely amazing God's grace is. :) John Newton...

Amazing grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me! I once was lost, but now am found, was blind, but now I see!​

'Twas grace that taught my heart to fear, and grace my fears relieved! How precious did that grace appear The hour I first believed!​

Our belief does not bring God's grace. Our belief is the result of God's grace. We then freely and willingly walk in His statutes and are careful to obey His rules.


I don't think so... :)


Your faith is in God, for sure. But "of yourself" in that you brought it to be within yourself is not the case. No, because of the new spirit that God has given you, because He has removed the heart of stone from your flesh and given you a heart of flesh, because He has put His Spirit within you, this is why you have saving faith.


Woodenly speaking, yes, we can do anything, even repent. But if we are dead in our sin, EG, which is our natural state ~ naturally, we are not of God; as Christians this is our former nature ~ we are 100 percent inclined not to repent, and therefore will never do so. But, if we are born again of the Spirit, we will then, because of our new nature, which is of God, be 100 percent inclined to repent, and will therefore not fail to do so. It is God Who, in the words of Isaiah (35), opens the eyes of the blind, unstops the ears of the deaf, enables the lame man to leap like a deer the tongue of the mute to sing for joy. Even though you (and I) were formerly 100 percent inclined against Him, God chose to have mercy and compassion on us and made us His. This is how amazing God's grace is.

Grace and peace to you!

You articulated that very well.

I, like you, would much rather highlight our Creators' actions than the actions (inactions) of the things They created.

Inactions as some may put it because, quote, 'without Me you can do nothing'. Nothing of value to the Gardener. Or, without Me you can nothing to make yourself bear fruit for the Gardeners pleasure and glory. For it is the Gardener and the Vine Who works in us by Their Spirit of Truth that enables us to be willing to do so we can actually do things that bring Them pleasure.

This is what excites me over and over again. That we can participate in bringing pleasure to our Father, and our Brother and best Friend. I am so glad we are given an opportunity to bless Them now, in Christ's coming kingdom when He comes with His angels and in His Father's never ending kingdom when the Son submits Himself and His kingdom to His Father.

 

[Christian Soldier]

No he does not

Actually no it does not

Romans 9 is pauls argument that God did nto make a mistake chosing Israel. And he was destroying the argument of the jews that they were chosen because their fathers were righteous.

He chose against mans design, who said the first born is the heir

He did not chose to save one, and condemn the other before they were even born, he chose to make a nation out of one, and not the other

He then quotes Malachi,

Jacob - (the nation of Israel) he loved
Esau - (the nation of Edom) he hated, or in the hebrew, LOVED LESS..

You need to get out more my friend




It had nothign to do with eternal salvation. Have you studied the OT.

So I prove God did not get his way that free will allowed a nation to go in punishment because they were not willing, and you twist it to mean something else. SMH

No, actually he does not. He said he wass willing that NO ONE should perish.

God elected those who would see and believe to eternal salvation. he told jesus he could have every one of them.

Whatever

Your suggestion that God saves nations rather than individuals is an abomination, you have the same view of God as the Pharisees had and Jesus said that they were the children of the Devil. I can't believe that a Christian would align himself with the Devils children, it's quite shocking actually.

God literally said He hated Esau, while he was in his mothers womb. You have added a bunch of nonsense to what God said, to push you false unbiblical interpretation. You don't have the right to twist Gods Word to make it say what you want it to.

2 Peter 3:9-10 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Before you jump to false conclusions, go and study the surrounding text of 2 Peter 3:9-10 You will find Peter was speaking to born again believers. The context of the word "any" in that verse is referring to believers, meaning that God is not willing that any believer perish. But your false Arminian universalism, prevents you from understanding what Gods Word teaches, so you always have to twist everything God says.

God never said He loves a nation, the Israel of God is the Body of Christ. It consists of every believer under the covenant of grace. That means Gentiles from ever tribe and tongue and Jews. TE Israel of God is not a Nation, it's the body of His Son, so this idea that the Jews are under a separate covenant is the Doctrine of Demons.

So God does chose to save some and leave others in their sin, I know you Armenians have a problem with Gods sovereignty, but it's to your own determent. God is not mocked, He will get the last laugh regardless of what mockers say.

 

[Christian Soldier]

No. Jesus did not fail. He won, He not only purchased salvation for the world. He is honored every time one of his creation recieves him. He will be even more honored when those who reject him are sent to outer darkness, Why? Because he paid their debt to. He did nto condemn them, they condemned themselves. Why?

He who does not believe is condemned already because they have not believe.

Not because jesus did not die for them

Your make yourself special. Because he chose you and did not chose the other person. Your God is not special.

Excuse me sir. The word elect is not in the passage. Don;t add to the word

Amen and who are we?

For it is by GRACE we HAVE BEEN SAVED through faith..

Those who John said have recieved him, but as many as have recieved him to tHEM HE GAVE THE RIGHT to become children of God.

Amen, again see why they were saved

Amen, again read John 3, Romans 10, Eph 1 and so many other passages which tell us why those things happen

1. I am not an arminian. So get off your high horse
2. Paul said, FOR IT IS BY GRACE WE HAVE BEEN SAVED THROUGH FAITH.

so take your arminian nonsense and your fatalistic nonsens and put it away. Paul said it not Arminian or anyone else.

I get so sick of these arminian vs calvin debates where people are so stuck in their theology they can not even hear what another person is saying.

You people need to find a chatroom of like people so you can party with each other.. All you do is muddy up chatrooms like this, and make them places of battle and hate, and not places for brothers and sisters in christ to hang out

OK, so how should I understand your "Jesus died for everyone" doctrine. If The Father sent His Son to save the whole of humanity, but the result is the vast majority didn't buy the eternal paradise product, but they chose the eternal torment in hellfire product instead.

Are you suggesting that Jesus didn't know how to sell free entry into eternal paradise, and as a result most chose the eternal lake of fire option. This makes no sense to me at all.
You either believe what the above verses say, that God saved those He purposed to save before He created the world, He knows everyone by name. Or you believe the false Arminian gospel which teaches you that, God doesn't get to chose who is saved.
You think that choice is yours, and that robs God of His glory in salvation. You dethrone God and set yourself up as your own savior because you poses this magic "faith" thing which forces God to accept you.

You should do a study to learn what word "theology" means, you're theology is pure Arminianism and you don't even know it. In fact Jacob Arminius would be super proud of you for pushing his heretical gospel.

 

[JBO]

You should do a study to learn what word "theology" means, you're theology is pure Arminianism and you don't even know it. In fact Jacob Arminius would be super proud of you for pushing his heretical gospel.

And Satan would be super proud of you for pushing Calvin's heretical gospel.

 

[Christian Soldier]

You mentioned earlier that 'The Bible is all about Jesus from cover to cover, and there's nothing outside of the Bible which can teach you something about God.'

The author of the book of Hebrews said about God's Son, Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high. Heb 1:3 and again,
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. Heb 12:2

Peter stakes, Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. 1Pe 3:22

Then Luke records the experience of a fellow follower of Jesus, But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. Act 7:55&56

These records were from the bible. As was this one.
And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.
But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able. And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father. Matthew 20:21-23

Zebadee's wife must've heard that there were going to be a person sitting at the Messiah's left and His right in His kingdom. Jesus acknowledges that there will be and this is in the bible. Why is there no record in the bible of who these will be sitting in these positions in His kingdom?

It is recorded in the bible who will be sitting at Messiah's Father's right but no mention who will be sitting on His left in His kingdom. Why isn't there a record of this in the bible?

God is not just One Person, so there's no point in focusing on the Jesus the Man. God is Three persons, in One Godhead so you can't imagine what God looks like because we haven't even seen the Son so we don't have any idea what He looked like. Those who did see Jesus the Man, didn't make any images of Him because it is forbidden to make any images of any Person of the Holy Trinity.

Apart from having no idea what Jesus looked like, the bigger mystery is the triune God Himself. We really know next to nothing about Him, He only revealed a small snippet about Himself. He is infinitely more mysterious, than we can imagine. His ways are past finding out so we should not try to understand His ways. I have watched people go insane trying to get into the mind of God, they end up lost in confusion. Their endeavor was doomed from the start, because it's mission impossible.

God gave us the Bible, and we can't even get our minds around 66 books, let alone the big stuff. Most Christians can't accept the fact that God hides a lot from us because it's not good for us to know many things. For example, God forbids us from looking into the future. King Soul was punished by death for going to consult a witch, he just wanted to find out something but God killed him for his disobedience.

God said that we should deal with todays troubles today, it's not His desire to burden us with tomorrows troubles. Those who do that, take on unbearable burdens which end up destroying them.

It's not possible to compare God to anything in the universe, He is outside of His creation. That's why the Bible says "nobody has seen God at anytime, except for the Son" If God could be likened to something, then that would be to diminish who He is. He holds the universe in the palm of His hand, He knows every star by name and he knows how many specks of dust are in the universe. There's no way anybody will ever get their minds around the mystery of God.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Your suggestion that God saves nations rather than individuals is an abomination, you have the same view of God as the Pharisees had and Jesus said that they were the children of the Devil. I can't believe that a Christian would align himself with the Devils children, it's quite shocking actually.

Dude. You have serious comprehension skills and you think you can sit there and attack based on your failure to understand what I said is not going to fly

Roman’s 9-12 is Paul responding to the Isreal problem. And the many questions that had to be settled because of the back and forth between the Jews and gentiles

God literally said He hated Esau, while he was in his mothers womb.

No he did not. He said it to malichi centuries after Esau died.

Malachi 1:3
2 “I have loved you,” says the Lord.
“Yet you say, ‘In what way have You loved us?’
Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?”
Says the Lord.
“Yet Jacob I have loved;
3. But Esau I have hated, And laid waste his mountains and his heritage For the jackals of the wilderness.”

He is talking about 2 nations here not two unborn children

One thing we must do is look at what was quoted. Paul spoke to people who knew the OT when he quotes a passage they would look to that passage to get context

Context was never a baby in a mothers womb and eternal salvation

You have added a bunch of nonsense to what God said, to push you false unbiblical interpretation. You don't have the right to twist Gods Word to make it say what you want it to.

Nope I just took it in context. Which you failed to do. And now I will watch you backtrack or deny the literal truth of what God said

2 Peter 3:9-10 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Before you jump to false conclusions, go and study the surrounding text of 2 Peter 3:9-10 You will find Peter was speaking to born again believers. The context of the word "any" in that verse is referring to believers, meaning that God is not willing that any believer perish. But your false Arminian universalism, prevents you from understanding what Gods Word teaches, so you always have to twist everything God says.

God never said He loves a nation, the Israel of God is the Body of Christ. It consists of every believer under the covenant of grace. That means Gentiles from ever tribe and tongue and Jews. TE Israel of God is not a Nation, it's the body of His Son, so this idea that the Jews are under a separate covenant is the Doctrine of Demons.

So God does chose to save some and leave others in their sin, I know you Armenians have a problem with Gods sovereignty, but it's to your own determent. God is not mocked, He will get the last laugh regardless of what mockers say.

You go worship your unloving God

I will worship my loving God. Who gives grace to all and opportunity to all. And will judged holy and righteous in the end

 

[Eternally Grateful]

OK, so how should I understand your "Jesus died for everyone" doctrine. If The Father sent His Son to save the whole of humanity, but the result is the vast majority didn't buy the eternal paradise product, but they chose the eternal torment in hellfire product instead.

Are you suggesting that Jesus didn't know how to sell free entry into eternal paradise, and as a result most chose the eternal lake of fire option. This makes no sense to me at all.
You either believe what the above verses say, that God saved those He purposed to save before He created the world, He knows everyone by name. Or you believe the false Arminian gospel which teaches you that, God doesn't get to chose who is saved.
You think that choice is yours, and that robs God of His glory in salvation. You dethrone God and set yourself up as your own savior because you poses this magic "faith" thing which forces God to accept you.

It’s called love

When you love people and you do things for them and they reject your love it reflects good on you. In fact this is how God tells us to serve everyone even our enemy

You should do a study to learn what word "theology" means, your theology is pure Arminianism and you don't even know it. In fact Jacob Arminius would be super proud of you for pushing his heretical gospel.

Your stuck on theology words of men. I am more worried about the words of God then what some mad said a few hundred years ago. You should try to do the same

And while your at it help @Ritajanice to do the same. She has the same flaw. Proven by the fact she keeps liking your posts

 

[Ritajanice]

It’s called love

When you love people and you do things for them and they reject your love it reflects good on you. In fact this is how God tells us to serve everyone even our enemy

Your stuck on theology words of men. I am more worried about the words of God then what some mad said a few hundred years ago. You should try to do the same

And while your at it help @Ritajanice to do the same. She has the same flaw. Proven by the fact she keeps liking your posts.

I like his posts because he posts Gods truth.

You post your own intellectual understanding....nothing spiritual what so ever in your words.

You even said...God won’t force us to become Born Again...scripture please?

I ask you about the 9 th time now @Eternally Grateful ....how do you know that God exists?

You can read it in his penned word....you need to know it somewhere else......as in Born Again of imperishable seed?

Meaning what?

None of what you have posted above is biblical...you have also denied that we are led by the Spirit Of God.

I believe Gods word @Eternally Grateful ....not your words.

Romans 8​

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King James Version​

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8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor

 

[Ritajanice]

Your stuck on theology words of men. I am more worried about the words of God then what some mad said a few hundred years ago. You should try to do the same

You’re also stuck on thinking that you had some say in becoming Born Of The Spirit.....if one believes in God then their spirit must be Born Again....by divine revelation.....reading the written word won’t cut it I’m afraid....you need that divine Living spirit birth.

Looking to the cross doesn’t birth your spirit...looking to the cross and believing, then one is already Born Of The Spirit.

It’s the Spirit that Witnesses that truth to our heart/ spirit....you have much to learn in your spirit @Eternally Grateful .

You need the Spirit to witness the truth of the cross to your spirit....reading it isn’t enough....you need to be Born Of the Spirit to understand the cross.

You also need to be Born Of God’s Spirit to know that he truly exists.....anyone can read the Bible and believe in their own understanding.

We must be Born Again to know that we are spirit children......not just reading the word....

We need divine Living Spirit revelation...that comes directly to our spirit from the Spirit of God....only he can testify with our spirit that we are Gods children.....you can’t choose for that to happen.....whoever has taught you that is in error..

 

[GodsGrace]

You’re also stuck on thinking that you had some say in becoming Born Of The Spirit.....if one believes in God then their spirit must be Born Again....by divine revelation.....reading the written word won’t cut it I’m afraid....you need that divine Living spirit birth.

Looking to the cross doesn’t birth your spirit...looking to the cross and believing, then one is already Born Of The Spirit.

It’s the Spirit that Witnesses that truth to our heart/ spirit....you have much to learn in your spirit @Eternally Grateful .

You need the Spirit to witness the truth of the cross to your spirit....reading it isn’t enough....you need to be Born Of the Spirit to understand the cross.

You also need to be Born Of God’s Spirit to know that he truly exists.....anyone can read the Bible and believe in their own understanding.

We must be Born Again to know that we are spirit children......not just reading the word....

We need divine Living Spirit revelation...that comes directly to our spirit from the Spirit of God....only he can testify with our spirit that we are Gods children.....you can’t choose for that to happen.....whoever has taught you that is in error..

You know Ritajanice.....
You seem to be here to put down other members.

Let's do this:
Post a verse or two that states that God chooses who will be saved.

Sounds like ONLY YOU have the spirit of God.
The rest of us are just floundering around out there -
with no clue.

And, wow, am I really tired of hearing about how OUR FREE WILL takes away the SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD.

What a small God you believe in.
@Christian Soldier

Yes.
My God can allow free will and NOT BE WORRIED about loosing His sovereignty.
He's the Almighty God that created the universe, including humans, to share His love for us.

Not to send us to hell unless HE picks us and without even LETTING US KNOW WHY!

 

[Ritajanice]

You know Ritajanice.....
You seem to be here to put down other members.

I’m here to post Gods truth...you take what I say as put downs, you best take that up with God.....
All in your opinion my dear.

Have you only got selective reading?

You must have missed the other put downs addressed to me by a certain member?

Oh I forgot...you are both of the same belief...ah, maybe that’s why you missed his put downs not only to me another member as well...you gave him a thumbs up for his put downs to another member as well....oh the hypocrisy of it all!.

Let's do this:
Post a verse or two that states that God chooses who will be saved.

Sounds like ONLY YOU have the spirit of God.
The rest of us are just floundering around out there -
with no clue.

And, wow, am I really tired of hearing about how OUR FREE WILL takes away the SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD.

What a small God you believe in.
@Christian Soldier

Born Again of imperishable seed...meaning?

Is that small?

Yes.
My God can allow free will and NOT BE WORRIED about loosing His sovereignty.
He's the Almighty God that created the universe, including humans, to share His love for us.

Your freewill does not make your spirit Born Again I’m afraid.

Not to send us to hell unless HE picks us and without even LETTING US KNOW WHY!

Not biblical.

God makes the rules not me!
Just prove my point wrong using scripture please..?

We are Born Of The Spirit..not Born Of the written word.

Studying theology doesn’t make one’s spirit Born Again I’m afraid......although your spirit could become Born Again while reading theology, if it’s Gods will to do so.....he wills it...not us.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I like his posts because he posts Gods truth.

If you think so.

You post your own intellectual understanding....nothing spiritual what so ever in your words.

Which is what he is doing, He is posting his doctrinal thinking.. Not the word of God

You even said...God won’t force us to become Born Again...scripture please?

So you think he will? (scripture please)

I ask you about the 9 th time now @Eternally Grateful ....how do you know that God exists?

And I have answered multiple times do I need to go back and repost this question and answer.

Listen Rita, I do not know what I did to you or why you act this way, But you need to stop.

You can read it in his penned word....you need to know it somewhere else......as in Born Again of imperishable seed?

Meaning what?

None of what you have posted above is biblical...you have also denied that we are led by the Spirit Of God.

I believe Gods word @Eternally Grateful ....not your words.

Romans 8​

​

King James Version​

​

​

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor

nothing else is even worth responding to.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You’re also stuck on thinking that you had some say in becoming Born Of The Spirit.....if one believes in God then their spirit must be Born Again....by divine revelation.....reading the written word won’t cut it I’m afraid....you need that divine Living spirit birth.

Looking to the cross doesn’t birth your spirit...looking to the cross and believing, then one is already Born Of The Spirit.

It’s the Spirit that Witnesses that truth to our heart/ spirit....you have much to learn in your spirit @Eternally Grateful .

You need the Spirit to witness the truth of the cross to your spirit....reading it isn’t enough....you need to be Born Of the Spirit to understand the cross.

You also need to be Born Of God’s Spirit to know that he truly exists.....anyone can read the Bible and believe in their own understanding.

We must be Born Again to know that we are spirit children......not just reading the word....

We need divine Living Spirit revelation...that comes directly to our spirit from the Spirit of God....only he can testify with our spirit that we are Gods children.....you can’t choose for that to happen.....whoever has taught you that is in error..

i will tell you like I told him


We were included with everyone else who was predestined, when we heard the truth the gospel of our salvation. and we trusted these words in faith (pauls words, nbot mine) eph 1

We who were dead where made alive in CHrist (by gace we have been saved) Eph 2 (Pauls words)

for it is by GRACE we have been saved THROUGH FAITH (pauls words) Eph 2

Your argument is with Paul not me. If you want to attack someone, attack paul.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You know Ritajanice.....
You seem to be here to put down other members.

Let's do this:
Post a verse or two that states that God chooses who will be saved.

Sounds like ONLY YOU have the spirit of God.
The rest of us are just floundering around out there -
with no clue.

And, wow, am I really tired of hearing about how OUR FREE WILL takes away the SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD.

What a small God you believe in.
@Christian Soldier

Yes.
My God can allow free will and NOT BE WORRIED about loosing His sovereignty.
He's the Almighty God that created the universe, including humans, to share His love for us.

Not to send us to hell unless HE picks us and without even LETTING US KNOW WHY!

I am amazed at those who think God is so powerless. he can help a non believer understand and give that person the ability to repent and trust God to be saved.

I do not know where this thinking comes from. (well I guess I do. some man thought it up a few hundred years ago. and it took off)

 

[Ritajanice]

i will tell you like I told him


We were included with everyone else who was predestined, when we heard the truth the gospel of our salvation. and we trusted these words in faith (pauls words, nbot mine) eph 1

We who were dead where made alive in CHrist (by gace we have been saved) Eph 2 (Pauls words)

for it is by GRACE we have been saved THROUGH FAITH (pauls words) Eph 2

Your argument is with Paul not me. If you want to attack someone, attack paul.

That is not how our spirit is Born Again of imperishable seed.

You have yet to explain what that means?

You are reading Paul’s message...his message doesn’t make your spirit Born Again.

Anyone can read and say what you say and read...much more to it than reading my friend.

Our spirit must be Born Again...the written word is just that...the written word...it’s not the Living Spirit who does the spirit birth.

The Living Spirit can birth his children as and when it pleases God to do so....he doesn’t ask for our permission....it was already decided by God before the foundation of the world.

You need to understand the spirit birth in your spirit....it’s not understood in our natural understanding or thinking.

 

[Ritajanice]

If you think so.

Which is what he is doing, He is posting his doctrinal thinking.. Not the word of God

He is in the spirit and he speaks in the spirit.

So you think he will? (scripture please)

I asked you to post scripture please..per my last posts to you?

How you choose to say no to God regarding the spirit birth?....scripture please?

And I have answered multiple times do I need to go back and repost this question and answer.

Listen Rita, I do not know what I did to you or why you act this way, But you need to stop.

You mentioned my name it alerted me....so don’t mention my name if you want me to stop.

You aren’t in control of what I post...I have broken no rules.

nothing else is even worth responding to.

Once again evasion of my questions...you quoted me..or mentioned me..I will respond....if you don’t quote me or mention me, I will stop responding.

You did the mentioning to me in Christian Soldier post.......not me!!...you started the ball rolling so to speak..so don’t put the blame on me.

I liked Christian Soldier posts it obviously annoyed you and you couldn’t help but mentioning my liking of his posts ....so of course if you mention me, which alerts me...then I will respond to you.

Put me on ignore if I upset you so much.

My posts and beliefs are just as valid as yours..I post what I believe....you post what you believe.

 

[PinSeeker]

Actually. I am not saying this...

You are. That's your whole point. He gave us grace because we believed/trusted. That's absolutely backwards.

he did he said this in eph 1: 13 - 14, Eph 2: 8.

Absolutely not. See above.

For it is by GRACE I have been saved THROUGH FAITH...

Yes, me, too, but don't stop there, Eternally Grateful. Yes, "...by grace (we) have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." The "through faith" part is included with the "saved" part in the "this," which is "not of (our) own doing."

Our faith is a gift of the Spirit, as Paul states in Romans 12:3 ~ "think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned..." ~ and Paul also states in 1 Corinthians 12:4-11 ~ "Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God Who empowers them all in everyone. To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit... to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as He Wills."

You can not remove faith from the question...

Right; think about what you say here. :)

...It is through faith.

Right, and this is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. I know you don't mean to do this, and in fact are probably kind of repulsed at the thought, but in effect, you ~ like Jacobus Arminius ~ are making this faith out to be a work, which, if it were such would give us ground to boast ~ and even ground for some measure of self-praise for our salvation. Again, perish the thought; I know you don't mean to do this, but this is effectually what you are doing,

We are still born again AFTER we have faith. Not because of it...

Well, I would say it's all a part of the process of being saved; in being born again, we are given faith... but I'll accept what you say here and say that before being born again, we were dead in our sin. Now, literally speaking, dead people can't do anything. By the same token, we cannot have had faith while being dead in our sin, before being born again.

You have us made alive while still under the penalty of sin.

Um, well... "God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God" (Paul, Romans 5:8-9).

God can not go against his own justice.

Agreed, absolutely. But He can, in His mercy, impute the righteousness of His Son to those to whom He wills. Which is exactly what Moses (who quotes God Himself) and Paul (who quotes Moses quoting God) say: “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” And Paul goes on, saying, "Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory ~ even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?"

It's very interesting that you say this about His justice. Two things I would say: 1) that He would be perfectly just in not imputing the righteousness of Christ to any of us, and thus none of us would be saved or inherit eternal life in Christ, and 2) Christ, as you will agree, satisfies God's justice on behalf of those whom God purposes to save, those whom per His will He has mercy and compassion on. Yes, God does not go against or compromise His justice in any way, and not to any degree. Agreed. Absolutely.

The tax collector was ot tryign to please God he was trying to recieve Gods mercy, because he became poor in spirit. Unable to even look up at God...

Yes, because his eyes had been opened, his deaf ears unstopped ~ the eyes and ears of his heart... he had been brought from death in sin to life in Christ. He had been born again and was thus able to see his need for God's mercy. The prophet Joel gives us a clear picture of the order of things in Joel 2:32...

"it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls."​

Read that passage closely, and you will see that the ones who call upon the name of the LORD and are thus saved are the ones whom the LORD calls. We call upon Him because He has called us.

Peter says, in 1 Peter 2:9-10, that we are "called..." by God, of course, "...out of darkness into His marvelous light. Once (we) were not a people, but now (we) are God’s people; once (we) had not received mercy, but now (we) have received mercy." And remember how Peter puts it in 1 Peter 1:3-5...

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."​

Never does anything in God's Word say "we are called because we believe," but rather we believe because we have received the mercy of God and have been called by Him and thus drawn to Him. This is what Jesus says:

"No one can come to Me unless the Father Who sent Me draws him" (John 6:44).​

Jesus even says to his disciples ~ and to you and me, by extension:

"You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in My name, He may give it to you" (John 15:16).​

We first come to believe in the very same context as those in Acts 13:48, "when the Gentiles heard (what Paul and Barnabus were saying), they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed."

Our belief is what allows God to apply his faith to us.

No, it is the natural result of our having been born again of the Spirit, of God by His Spirit having given us faith, which, like all of the Spirit's gifts, is apportioned to us as He wills, to be used for the common good.

we can not be born again in sin...

Absolutely correct; I hope no one is intimating such. When we are born again, it is of the Spirit, and we are no longer dead in our sin. But, sadly, in this life, we still sin. One great day that will no longer be the case. God has promised it, and all God's promises have their 'yes' and 'amen' in Christ Jesus.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That is not how our spirit is Born Again of imperishable seed.

You have yet to explain what that means?

You are reading Paul’s message...his message doesn’t make your spirit Born Again.

Anyone can read and say what you say and read...much more to it than reading my friend.

Our spirit must be Born Again...the written word is just that...the written word...it’s not the Living Spirit who does the spirit birth.

The Living Spirit can birth his children as and when it pleases God to do so....he doesn’t ask for our permission....it was already decided by God before the foundation of the world.

You need to understand the spirit birth in your spirit....it’s not understood in our natural understanding or thinking.

In other words you disagree with paul

I am done I have tried to explain it to you if you will not see what I have shared then deny I even shared it. Then that’s on you

 

[Eternally Grateful]

He is in the spirit and he speaks in the spirit.

Oh so you are with him and you saw the spirit enter him. Ok I did not know that

I asked you to post scripture please..per my last posts to you?

How you choose to say no to God regarding the spirit birth?....scripture please?

You mentioned my name it alerted me....so don’t mention my name if you want me to stop.

You aren’t in control of what I post...I have broken no rules.

Once again evasion of my questions...you quoted me..or mentioned me..I will respond....if you don’t quote me or mention me, I will stop responding.

You did the mentioning to me in Christian Soldier post.......not me!!...you started the ball rolling so to speak..so don’t put the blame on me.

I liked Christian Soldier posts it obviously annoyed you and you couldn’t help but mentioning my liking of his posts ....so of course if you mention me, which alerts me...then I will respond to you.

Put me on ignore if I upset you so much.

My posts and beliefs are just as valid as yours..I post what I believe....you post what you believe.

You like him because he agrees with you. And I called you both out. As usual you deflect

So back on you