Elect or Not Elect: Why ALL Should Be Alarmed

[Christian Soldier]

I'm still unclear by what YOU mean by the words, Gods Word.

There are many different understandings from many different people over time of what they think the term 'God's Word' means.

I mean God wrote every Word in the Bible, from cover to cover. He wrote it through His prophets, His Word is alive and all powerful. It's eternal and never changes, it can move mountains and change the world. Mankind was only given Gods Word as we have it in the Holy Bible.

We know that Gods Word is foolishness to those who are perishing, so they will never understand it. God's people have always understood His Word in exactly the same way over thousands of years. The message has always been the same to every generation from the beginning of time.

Those who have an incorrect understanding of Gods Word are not His children. God said "My Sheep hear My voice". So that means that, those who are dead in trespasses and sin and enslaved by Satan, do not hear His voice or understand His Word.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I mean God wrote every Word in the Bible, from cover to cover. He wrote it through His prophets, His Word is alive and all powerful. It's eternal and never changes, it can move mountains and change the world. Mankind was only given Gods Word as we have it in the Holy Bible.

We know that Gods Word is foolishness to those who are perishing, so they will never understand it. God's people have always understood His Word in exactly the same way over thousands of years. The message has always been the same to every generation from the beginning of time.

Those who have an incorrect understanding of Gods Word are not His children. God said "My Sheep hear My voice". So that means that, those who are dead in trespasses and sin and enslaved by Satan, do not hear His voice or understand His Word.

Yeah Your right

God tells people to repent. But he will not grant them the ability to repent.

Yes, gods word is unchangable. Sadly, people do not understand how to interpret it

 

[Christian Soldier]

Gods Living witness His Living Holy Spirit, doesn’t live in the Bible?

The Bible/ penned word backs up Gods Witness His Living Holy Spirit?

Whatever the Spirit testifies/ Witnesses to our spirit is in the penned word of God?

Our spirit is Born Again of imperishable seed, our spirit is not Born Again by the penned word, the Living Holy Spirit backs up His testimony to our spirit, that we are Gods Children, that’s the Living Spirit birth....it’s not penned....it’s a Living divine revelation when we are Born Of The Spirit.

The Spirit is everywhere and the Bible doesn’t contain Gods Living Witness His Living Holy Spirit.

It reveals and backs up what has already been testified/ witnessed to our spirit, by Gods Living witness His Living Holy Spirit....

I don't understand it the same way you do. I believe that Gods Word is the most powerful thing in the universe, it is all powerful, it's alive and it never changes and it remains the same forever.
I believe the work of the Holy Spirit, is to minister Gods Word to us, so we can understand it. The Word of God is foolishness to those who, the Holy Spirit was not sent, The Holy Spirit only gives understanding and faith to those whom God chose.

Gods Word is and has been and will remain the only means of salvation for everyone in every age. The work of the Holy Spirit is to administer the Word to us, which is the power of God, onto salvation. The Holy Spirit, doesn't have anything to offer apart from Gods Word. The only reason Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to His people, is because no saved person can understand Gods Word without the help of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I don't understand it the same way you do. I believe that Gods Word is the most powerful thing in the universe, it is all powerful, it's alive and it never changes and it remains the same forever.
I believe the work of the Holy Spirit, is to minister Gods Word to us, so we can understand it. The Word of God is foolishness to those who, the Holy Spirit was not sent, The Holy Spirit only gives understanding and faith to those whom God chose.

Gods Word is and has been and will remain the only means of salvation for everyone in every age. The work of the Holy Spirit is to administer the Word to us, which is the power of God, onto salvation. The Holy Spirit, doesn't have anything to offer apart from Gods Word. The only reason Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to His people, is because no saved person can understand Gods Word without the help of the Holy Spirit.

He sent the HS to the world To the Lost.

But even before he sent the HS, people understood the word

John the Baptist said to repent. For the kingdom of God was at hand. Everyone he spoke to had the ability to understand

 

[Christian Soldier]

Just a quick question.

Who did God say is going to sit on Jesus's left and who is going to sit on Jesus's right in His kingdom?

Who did God say is going to sit on His left and who is going to sit on His right in His kingdom?

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here, but God is Jesus and Jesus is God. His Kingdom doesn't have a seating arrangement, but heaven does. So it might help if you take that into consideration before asking the question.

God is Spirit, He doesn't have a physical throne. The throne of God is symbolic, we will never be able to describe God because there's nothing to compare Him with. He is a mystery, He doesn't have any physical form by which we can identify Him.

 

[Christian Soldier]

Yeah Your right

God tells people to repent. But he will not grant them the ability to repent.

Yes, gods word is unchangable. Sadly, people do not understand how to interpret it

I agree with your first point, God does command all men to repent, knowing that only those to whom He grants faith and repentance to by His grace will repent.
We can apply that principal to all of Gods commandments, we know that nobody can keep any of God's commandment unless God sends His Holy Spirit to enable them to obey His commandments.

Yes, Gods Word never changes, but you can't say "people do not understand how to interpret it", that's a half truth, because those to whom God grants understanding by His Holy Spirit, do know how to interpret His Word correctly.

There's nothing sad in Gods creation, everything is going precisely as God preordained it to work out. There are no accidents or surprises in Gods order, He controls everything and everything must conform to His will. There are no autonomous creatures running around doing things outside of Gods will.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I agree with your first point, God does command all men to repent, knowing that only those to whom He grants faith and repentance to by His grace will repent.

Sorry bud, God is not like that. You shoudl stop mocking God like this. Only an evil person would even think of something like this

We can apply that principal to all of Gods commandments, we know that nobody can keep any of God's commandment unless God sends His Holy Spirit to enable them to obey His commandments.

lol. Thats funny, jesus said the gentiles, who did not have the law. by nature kept the law

seems like your theory is flawed.

Yes, Gods Word never changes, but you can't say "people do not understand how to interpret it", that's a half truth, because those to whom God grants understanding by His Holy Spirit, do know how to interpret His Word correctly.

Yet anyone can repent. John the Baptist told jews. Who obeyed the law to repent. Why do you think he told them to repent. To prepair for jesus?

There's nothing sad in Gods creation, everything is going precisely as God preordained it to work out. There are no accidents or surprises in Gods order, He controls everything and everything must conform to His will. There are no autonomous creatures running around doing things outside of Gods will.

Really?

jesus told jerusalem, he so often wanted to gather them together as a mother hen, but they were unwilling.

A loving God does not always get what he wants when he gives his creation free will

for without free will. There can be no relationship. The flaw of fatalism is you have no relationship with God. Your just robots doing whatever God wants yout o do

 

[Christian Soldier]

He sent the HS to the world To the Lost.

But even before he sent the HS, people understood the word

John the Baptist said to repent. For the kingdom of God was at hand. Everyone he spoke to had the ability to understand

Yes God sent His Holy Spirit to the lost world, but Gods elect are born lost. Every person is born dead and lost, but thank God He sent His Son to redeem His elect.
God didn't send His Son or the Holy Spirit to save everyone, He sent them to save His elect who were lost when Adam fell. "That which was lost"

Luke 19:10 for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.” He didn't say I have come to save everyone or all of humanity.

You can't say "people understood His Word, before the Holy Spirit was sent", you need to be specific about which "people" you're referring to. Since we know that only Gods people understood His Word, throughout the ages. Gods people were always guided by the Holy Spirit. The Israel of old is the same body of Christ "the Church" as is the Israel of God today. There has only ever been One Chosen People, made up of Jews and Gentiles form every age in time.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes God sent His Holy Spirit to the lost world, but Gods elect are born lost. Every person is born dead and lost, but thank God He sent His Son to redeem His elect.

He sent his son not to JudGE THE WORLD> BUT TO SAVE IT

stop thinking yourself so special. You’re not special. If you even chose to trust Christ, You were saved by Grace THROUGH FAITH.

God didn't send His Son or the Holy Spirit to save everyone, He sent them to save His elect who were lost when Adam fell. "That which was lost"

Wrong. God was willing that non should perish. He chose to save those who would trust him

Luke 19:10 for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.” He didn't say I have come to save everyone or all of humanity.

Everyone is lost.

You can't say "people understood His Word, before the Holy Spirit was sent", you need to be specific about which "people" you're referring to. Since we know that only Gods people understood His Word, throughout the ages. Gods people were always guided by the Holy Spirit. The Israel of old is the same body of Christ "the Church" as is the Israel of God today. There has only ever been One Chosen People, made up of Jews and Gentiles form every age in time.

Well let’s see. Nicodemus did. Daniel did. Noah did. Abraham Did. I can name so many others.

but you already know that,

 

[Christian Soldier]

Sorry bud, God is not like that. You shoudl stop mocking God like this. Only an evil person would even think of something like this

lol. Thats funny, jesus said the gentiles, who did not have the law. by nature kept the law

seems like your theory is flawed.

Yet anyone can repent. John the Baptist told jews. Who obeyed the law to repent. Why do you think he told them to repent. To prepair for jesus?



Really?

jesus told jerusalem, he so often wanted to gather them together as a mother hen, but they were unwilling.

A loving God does not always get what he wants when he gives his creation free will

for without free will. There can be no relationship. The flaw of fatalism is you have no relationship with God. Your just robots doing whatever God wants yout o do

Gods refutes what you say, because He said in;

Roman 9:10-13
And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.”
Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

The above clearly demonstrates Gods sovereign election,, we see He actually hates unborn babies, but choses to save their twin in the womb. So that should tell you that salvation is of the Lord and not the choice of man as you falsely claim, and accuse God of being evil. That to me is pure blasphemy.

Who do you suppose Jesus spoke the words, that He would gather under His wings but they were unwilling. We are all born unwilling, and we remain unwilling to the grave, unless God saves us.

A loving God always gets what He wants, Jesus said "all that the father gives me shall come to me and nothing shall snatch them out of my Fathers hands" Every single one of Gods elect will be saved, not a single one will be lost, so God is almighty to accomplish whatever He desires to. You seem to believe in a weak god who failed to accomplish his mission to save everyone. I don't believe in a loser god. The God of the Bible is always a winner in all things.

Man does have a free will, he is free do everything according to his nature, mans nature is to hate God and serve his lust and Satan. So man is free to serve Satan and live to fulfil his sinful desire. So you are right in that sense.

 

[Christian Soldier]

He sent his son not to JudGE THE WORLD> BUT TO SAVE IT

stop thinking yourself so special. You’re not special. If you even chose to trust Christ, You were saved by Grace THROUGH FAITH.

Wrong. God was willing that non should perish. He chose to save those who would trust him

Everyone is lost.

Well let’s see. Nicodemus did. Daniel did. Noah did. Abraham Did. I can name so many others.

but you already know that,

According to you Jesus failed to save the world, so I don't believe in the loser Jesus who failed to fulfill His mission.

The Jesus I believe in is very special, because He saved me. I never chose to trust Christ, because I hated Him and considered myself an enemy of Christ. But God saved me by grace, while I hated Him and He granted me repentance and faith in His Son.

Wrong!!!, my Bible tells me that God is not willing that any of His elect perish. He elected to save some according to His will, and not by the will of man lest any should boast.

Ephesians 1:4
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

All those you who you mention, were saved by grace. And not by faith through grace as you Arminian's like to twist it and read it backwards, so you can rob God of His glory in salvation. You make your faith a work, which saves you, thereby robing God of the praise and glory which He alone deserves for saving those He chose before the world was made.

 

[Ritajanice]

I don't understand it the same way you do. I believe that Gods Word is the most powerful thing in the universe, it is all powerful, it's alive and it never changes and it remains the same forever.

AMEN!!!

I believe the work of the Holy Spirit, is to minister Gods Word to us, so we can understand it. The Word of God is foolishness to those who, the Holy Spirit was not sent, The Holy Spirit only gives understanding and faith to those whom God chose.

AMEN!!!

Gods Word is and has been and will remain the only means of salvation for everyone in every age. The work of the Holy Spirit is to administer the Word to us, which is the power of God, onto salvation. The Holy Spirit, doesn't have anything to offer apart from Gods Word. The only reason Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to His people, is because no saved person can understand Gods Word without the help of the Holy Spirit.

Excellent!....AMEN!!.

Breath of fresh air reading that....thanks for sharing!


Without the Holy Spirit.....I know NOTHING!. and am nothing.....it’s all of him and nothing of me!

Praise God that he brings us to understanding his word.....all in His timing!

spirit children....such an exciting path we walk...but....it is far from easy as I’m sure you well know!

 

[Christian Soldier]

AMEN!!!

AMEN!!!

Excellent!....AMEN!!.

Breath of fresh air reading that....thanks for sharing!


Without the Holy Spirit.....I know NOTHING!. and am nothing.....it’s all of him and nothing of me!

Praise God that he brings us to understanding his word.....all in His timing!

spirit children....such an exciting path we walk...but....it is far from easy as I’m sure you well know!

The Bible makes it clear, that man brings nothing to the table to persuade God to save him. The only thing man has to offer is is his depraved, fallen sin nature, which can do nothing to make the man acceptable to God. Yet so many Christians claim they are saved by adding their faith to Gods grace. So they believe salvation is a joint effort between God and man.

 

[Ritajanice]

The Bible makes it clear, that man brings nothing to the table to persuade God to save him. The only thing man has to offer is is his depraved, fallen sin nature, which can do nothing to make the man acceptable to God. Yet so many Christians claim they are saved by adding their faith to Gods grace. So they believe salvation is a joint effort between God and man.

I 100% agree....Amen!!....

All Glory in our becoming Born Again is Of God........I thank him every day for his Mercy and Grace!....that he showed me nearly 33 yrs again.

Forever growing and maturing in Jesus.....such an Honour and Privilege!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Gods refutes what you say, because He said in;

No he does not

Roman 9:10-13
And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.”
Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Actually no it does not

Romans 9 is pauls argument that God did nto make a mistake chosing Israel. And he was destroying the argument of the jews that they were chosen because their fathers were righteous.

He chose against mans design, who said the first born is the heir

He did not chose to save one, and condemn the other before they were even born, he chose to make a nation out of one, and not the other

He then quotes Malachi,

Jacob - (the nation of Israel) he loved
Esau - (the nation of Edom) he hated, or in the hebrew, LOVED LESS..

You need to get out more my friend

The above clearly demonstrates Gods sovereign election,, we see He actually hates unborn babies, but choses to save their twin in the womb. So that should tell you that salvation is of the Lord and not the choice of man as you falsely claim, and accuse God of being evil. That to me is pure blasphemy.

It had nothign to do with eternal salvation. Have you studied the OT.

Who do you suppose Jesus spoke the words, that He would gather under His wings but they were unwilling. We are all born unwilling, and we remain unwilling to the grave, unless God saves us.

So I prove God did not get his way that free will allowed a nation to go in punishment because they were not willing, and you twist it to mean something else. SMH

A loving God always gets what He wants, Jesus said "all that the father gives me shall come to me and nothing shall snatch them out of my Fathers hands" Every single one of Gods elect will be saved, not a single one will be lost, so God is almighty to accomplish whatever He desires to. You seem to believe in a weak god who failed to accomplish his mission to save everyone. I don't believe in a loser god. The God of the Bible is always a winner in all things.

No, actually he does not. He said he wass willing that NO ONE should perish.

God elected those who would see and believe to eternal salvation. he told jesus he could have every one of them.

Man does have a free will, he is free do everything according to his nature, mans nature is to hate God and serve his lust and Satan. So man is free to serve Satan and live to fulfil his sinful desire. So you are right in that sense.

Whatever

 

[Eternally Grateful]

According to you Jesus failed to save the world, so I don't believe in the loser Jesus who failed to fulfill His mission.

No. Jesus did not fail. He won, He not only purchased salvation for the world. He is honored every time one of his creation recieves him. He will be even more honored when those who reject him are sent to outer darkness, Why? Because he paid their debt to. He did nto condemn them, they condemned themselves. Why?

He who does not believe is condemned already because they have not believe.

Not because jesus did not die for them

The Jesus I believe in is very special, because He saved me. I never chose to trust Christ, because I hated Him and considered myself an enemy of Christ. But God saved me by grace, while I hated Him and He granted me repentance and faith in His Son.

Your make yourself special. Because he chose you and did not chose the other person. Your God is not special.

Wrong!!!, my Bible tells me that God is not willing that any of His elect perish. He elected to save some according to His will, and not by the will of man lest any should boast.

Excuse me sir. The word elect is not in the passage. Don;t add to the word

Ephesians 1:4
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

Amen and who are we?

For it is by GRACE we HAVE BEEN SAVED through faith..

Those who John said have recieved him, but as many as have recieved him to tHEM HE GAVE THE RIGHT to become children of God.

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Amen, again see why they were saved

2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

Amen, again read John 3, Romans 10, Eph 1 and so many other passages which tell us why those things happen

All those you who you mention, were saved by grace. And not by faith through grace as you Arminian's like to twist it and read it backwards, so you can rob God of His glory in salvation. You make your faith a work, which saves you, thereby robing God of the praise and glory which He alone deserves for saving those He chose before the world was made.

1. I am not an arminian. So get off your high horse
2. Paul said, FOR IT IS BY GRACE WE HAVE BEEN SAVED THROUGH FAITH.

so take your arminian nonsense and your fatalistic nonsens and put it away. Paul said it not Arminian or anyone else.

I get so sick of these arminian vs calvin debates where people are so stuck in their theology they can not even hear what another person is saying.

You people need to find a chatroom of like people so you can party with each other.. All you do is muddy up chatrooms like this, and make them places of battle and hate, and not places for brothers and sisters in christ to hang out

 

[One 2 question]

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here, but God is Jesus and Jesus is God. His Kingdom doesn't have a seating arrangement, but heaven does. So it might help if you take that into consideration before asking the question.

God is Spirit, He doesn't have a physical throne. The throne of God is symbolic, we will never be able to describe God because there's nothing to compare Him with. He is a mystery, He doesn't have any physical form by which we can identify Him.

You mentioned earlier that 'The Bible is all about Jesus from cover to cover, and there's nothing outside of the Bible which can teach you something about God.'

The author of the book of Hebrews said about God's Son, Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high. Heb 1:3 and again,
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. Heb 12:2

Peter stakes, Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. 1Pe 3:22

Then Luke records the experience of a fellow follower of Jesus, But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. Act 7:55&56

These records were from the bible. As was this one.
And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.
But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able. And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father. Matthew 20:21-23

Zebadee's wife must've heard that there were going to be a person sitting at the Messiah's left and His right in His kingdom. Jesus acknowledges that there will be and this is in the bible. Why is there no record in the bible of who these will be sitting in these positions in His kingdom?

It is recorded in the bible who will be sitting at Messiah's Father's right but no mention who will be sitting on His left in His kingdom. Why isn't there a record of this in the bible?

 

[PinSeeker]

No. Jesus did not fail. He won, He not only purchased salvation for the world. He is honored every time one of his creation receives him. He will be even more honored when those who reject him are sent to outer darkness, Why? Because he paid their debt too. He did not condemn them, they condemned themselves. Why?

He who does not believe is condemned already because they have not believed.

Not because jesus did not die for them...

EG, apologies for piling on... :) That is not my intent. But perhaps I can help. :)

There is a sense in which Jesus did indeed "purchase salvation for the world," and a sense in which He did not. That may seem on its face to be a contradictory statement, but not so.

On the one hand, yes, Jesus's atonement for sin was certainly universal, but in the sense that it was sufficient for all to be saved. Only in that sense, that it was sufficient to satisfy God's justice and reconcile all to the Father was it universal.

However... :)

God chose only some/many "before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him... In love He predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will..." (Ephesians 1). And these, His elect, are the ones who have been given to Jesus by the Father. As Jesus says in John 6:39-40, "...this is the will of Him..." ~ the Father, of course ~ "...Who sent Me, that I should lose nothing of all that He has given Me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” In this sense, the sense of being limited to only God's elect, Jesus's atonement is effectual not universally ~ else everyone would be saved, which we know will (unfortunately) not be the case ~ but selectively, according to God's will.

It's a hard truth, but truth none the less.

For it is by GRACE we HAVE BEEN SAVED through faith..

Absolutely, but finish Paul's quote from Ephesians 2:8... "...we have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." Many separate 'faith' back out of that verse and inadvertently make this faith out to be a work of man, something that man manufactures within himself, which cannot be done. This was Jacobus Arminius's mistake (and Pelagius before him), and what many still hold. The writer of Hebrews defines faith as "...the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." This assurance is given by the Father and worked in us ~ we are then convicted ~ by the Holy Spirit.

I am not an arminian...

But at least in this, you hold to an Arminian belief.

Paul said it not Arminian or anyone else.

Well, Arminius (not Arminian)... :) ...got what Paul said... wrongly. :) And many even today are still influenced by him. Arminius, like Pelagius centuries before him in his disagreement with Augustine, underestimated the true natural condition of man. If one is to understand that rightly ~ the absolute sinfulness of the natural man ~ remember, Paul says that all of mankind are "by nature children of wrath" (Ephesians 2:3); we all "were once slaves of sin" (Romans 6:17) ~ then all the other dominoes fall. :)

I get so sick of these arminian vs calvin debates where people are so stuck in their theology they can not even hear what another person is saying.

You people need to find a chatroom of like people so you can party with each other.. All you do is muddy up chatrooms like this, and make them places of battle and hate, and not places for brothers and sisters in christ to hang out

Hmmmm... :) See above... :)

Grace and peace to you, my friend.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

EG, apologies for piling on... :) That is not my intent. But perhaps I can help. :)

There is a sense in which Jesus did indeed "purchase salvation for the world," and a sense in which He did not. That may seem on its face to be a contradictory statement, but not so.

On the one hand, yes, Jesus's atonement for sin was certainly universal, but in the sense that it was sufficient for all to be saved. Only in that sense, that it was sufficient to satisfy God's justice and reconcile all to the Father was it universal.

Which is exactly what he said. Her died for the world

However... :)

Oh no, these are never good lol

God chose only some/many "before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him... In love He predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will..." (Ephesians 1).

Yes, But you can’t stop at the first part you have to read the whole

1st. How is this applied?

6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

So you see, It is by Grace in which we have been made accepted.

If we read on, we get more clues

10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

So you see here, It is those who trusted.

and we can read on

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who[d] is the [e]guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

So we too. After we heard the word. And after we trusted in faith that word. Were also saved by that same grace. And this salvation is eternal. God gave us the HS until that day of redemption to guarantee our salvation.

But again, he does not stop here he continues in chapter 2

2: 1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,

here we have the new birth, The birth which Jesus spoke of On John 3. That everyone had to be born again in order to see the kingdom of God. How is this new birth given and to who?


4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,


1. it is given again by the same grace Paul spoke of in chapter 1. In which we were predestined to be conformed to his image,

2. This salvation is again eternal. Because it is God who did the word. We did not do anything, as Paul will prove

7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in Hiskindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Again here is that same grace the same grace that predestined us, the same grace that made us alive, the same grace that saved us (basically three different ways of saying the same thing, however there is Somethign introduced again, Just like in chapter 1. Where we heard the word of truth, then trusted that word in faith. Here we have the grace that saved, is accomplished through faith. But not of works. Lest anyone should boast.

Now it would be a funny sight to see to see someone pumping his chest and boasting of how he saved himself because he trusted an on other person to do 100% of the work to save him. The Day I see that, will be the day I may give fatalism a different look. But I do not think I will see it, Because they boast in christ, not in self.

And these, His elect, are the ones who have been given to Jesus by the Father. As Jesus says in John 6:39-40, "...this is the will of Him..." ~ the Father, of course ~ "...Who sent Me, that I should lose nothing of all that He has given Me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

There you go, I think you just made my point for me, Again, It is based on who sees and who believes. And whoever does has eternal life, and he will raise them, just like in Eph 1 and 2. and John 3, they have been made alive

In this sense, the sense of being limited to only God's elect, Jesus's atonement is effectual not universally ~ else everyone would be saved, which we know will (unfortunately) not be the case ~ but selectively, according to God's will.

This makes no sense. No one will be judged for sin in the last day, they will be judged for their work. Their sin was already atoned for. However, They failed to do what could have saved them

It's a hard truth, but truth none the less.

Maybe, But I do not see it that way

Absolutely, but finish Paul's quote from Ephesians 2:8... "...we have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." Many separate 'faith' back out of that verse and inadvertently make this faith out to be a work of man, something that man manufactures within himself, which cannot be done. This was Jacobus Arminius's mistake (and Pelagius before him), and what many still hold. The writer of Hebrews defines faith as "...the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." This assurance is given by the Father and worked in us ~ we are then convicted ~ by the Holy Spirit.

But I do not know of a single person in my 40 year as a believer and in the ministry all over the united state that believed they conjured up this faith within themself. And thus they earned salvation because they trusted God.

I agree with the author of hebrews.

I trust God. Even though I do not see him, he said I have sinned and fall short. I believe this, He said he died for that sin, I did not see him die, but I trust he is telling me the truth, and I trust that he gave me eternal life. The Hope that God promised before time began.

So if my faith is in God. How can it be of myself?

But at least in this, you hold to an Arminian belief.

Negative my friend please do not falsly accuse.

Well, Arminius (not Arminian)... :) ...got what Paul said... wrongly. :) And many even today are still influenced by him. Arminius, like Pelagius centuries before him in his disagreement with Augustine, underestimated the true natural condition of man. If one is to understand that rightly ~ the absolute sinfulness of the natural man ~ remember, Paul says that all of mankind are "by nature children of wrath" (Ephesians 2:3); we all "were once slaves of sin" (Romans 6:17) ~ then all the other dominoes fall. :)

and I agree 100 percent with everything you said here. But it does not mean I can not repent.

He who believes is not condemned, He who does not believe is condemned already

they are under Gods wrath because of unbelief. That is the unpardonable trespass God will not forgive, If you die having never received the cross and grace of God. Your name is wiped off the book of life. You die in a condemned state.

Hmmmm... :) See above... :)

Grace and peace to you, my friend.

See above

grace and peace to you my friend.

 

[PinSeeker]

It is by Grace in which we have been made accepted.

Yes, but you're saying that His grace is dependent upon our belief, and this is not the case; in fact, that is directly opposite what Paul says in Romans 9:14-18, and specifically verse 16 (underlined):

"What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, Who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' So then He has mercy on whomever He wills, and he hardens whomever He wills."​

And by so doing, you are inadvertently making God's grace ~ God's unmerited favor ~ out to be something other than grace, to be merited rather than unmerited.

...It is those who trusted.

Yes, but our belief and trust is a result of the faith given us, as are our good works. Ezekiel 36 ~ which Paul is directly referring to ~ gives us a fuller picture of Who precipitates what ~ and what precipitates what ~ in this great salvation, which is of the Lord. God Himself says, through Ezekiel:

"I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes and be careful to obey My rules. You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God." (Ezekiel 36:24-28)​

...In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who[d] is the [e]guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

So we too.

Yes, but this trust and belief is a result of faith, which, again, is God's assurance, and conviction by the Holy Spirit. Does anyone assure and convict himself/herself, EG? If so, it is really empty, devoid of real substance... a wish, basically, and our saving faith ~ which, once given, is certainly ours ~ is certainly not empty. devoid of substance, or a wish. The Holy Spirit works this saving faith in us at the time we are born again of the Spirit... and grows it through the course of our new life in Christ.

...he does not stop here he continues in chapter 2...

He certainly does. :)

... you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,

Right, dead in our sin, so we were previously unable to do anything to please God. It might be better to say we were previously wholly inclined and thus absolutely unwilling to do anything to please God or to do His will, and actually wholly inclined and absolutely willing to do the opposite, to do the will of the father of the natural man, the devil. Remember again what Jesus said to the Jews He was speaking to at the Feast of Dedication in John 10:24-31...

"...the Jews gathered around Him and said to Him, 'How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.' Jesus answered them, 'I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among My sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, Who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.'"​

They did not believe BECAUSE they were not given to Jesus by the Father and therefore not among His sheep. Their unbelief is a result of NOT having been given to Jesus and therefore not among His sheep, not the other way around.

Now it would be a funny sight to see to see someone pumping his chest and boasting of how he saved himself because he trusted an on other person to do 100% of the work to save him.

Right, including working this salvific faith in us.

The Day I see that, will be the day I may give fatalism a different look.

It would probably help to dismiss the wrongheaded idea of "fatalism," and to come to the realization of just how undeserved and absolutely amazing God's grace is. :) John Newton...

Amazing grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me! I once was lost, but now am found, was blind, but now I see!​

'Twas grace that taught my heart to fear, and grace my fears relieved! How precious did that grace appear The hour I first believed!​

Our belief does not bring God's grace. Our belief is the result of God's grace. We then freely and willingly walk in His statutes and are careful to obey His rules.

I think you just made my point for me...

I don't think so... :)

So if my faith is in God. How can it be of myself?

Your faith is in God, for sure. But "of yourself" in that you brought it to be within yourself is not the case. No, because of the new spirit that God has given you, because He has removed the heart of stone from your flesh and given you a heart of flesh, because He has put His Spirit within you, this is why you have saving faith.

...it does not mean I can not repent.

Woodenly speaking, yes, we can do anything, even repent. But if we are dead in our sin, EG, which is our natural state ~ naturally, we are not of God; as Christians this is our former nature ~ we are 100 percent inclined not to repent, and therefore will never do so. But, if we are born again of the Spirit, we will then, because of our new nature, which is of God, be 100 percent inclined to repent, and will therefore not fail to do so. It is God Who, in the words of Isaiah (35), opens the eyes of the blind, unstops the ears of the deaf, enables the lame man to leap like a deer the tongue of the mute to sing for joy. Even though you (and I) were formerly 100 percent inclined against Him, God chose to have mercy and compassion on us and made us His. This is how amazing God's grace is.

Grace and peace to you!