Who, or what, is the dreaded bogey man of prophecy?

[tailgator]

When will you guys learn that Zechariah's prophecy will never be fulfilled in those who murdered our Lord?

It will be fulfilled in the church, the true "Israel of God".

You believe the church will be raped on the day of the Lord?

Really?

How many church members do you believe will be raped on that day?


14 A day of the Lord is coming, Jerusalem, when your possessions will be plundered and divided up within your very walls.

2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city



Now if I'm.not mistake this is what the word of God says will happen to the Israelites who do not keep his commandments in Deuteronomy.

 

[tailgator]

When will you guys learn that Zechariah's prophecy will never be fulfilled in those who murdered our Lord?

It will be fulfilled in the church, the true "Israel of God".

You honestly believe God will cause the church to be raped?

14 A day of the Lord is coming, Jerusalem, when your possessions will be plundered and divided up within your very walls.

2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city


Why do you believe God wants the church raped?

 

[tailgator]

Your reading comprehension it terrible.

John saw in a vision of the future a Woman riding a Beast.

The angel clearly says this future Woman that joins hands with the Beast (apostate church joining with the secular state) is in ROME, the very city that was currently reigning over the kings of the Earth!

The day of the Lord is when Jerusalem(aka Babylon )is attacked by the nations.The houses will be ransacked and the women raped.

Zech 14
14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.


A prophecy against Babylon.

Isaiah 13
9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.

17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.

 

[tailgator]

When will you guys learn that Zechariah's prophecy will never be fulfilled in those who murdered our Lord?

It will be fulfilled in the church, the true "Israel of God".

Yes,this is very disturbing.
Do you preach that all church women will be raped or just some?

Is it a many men raping the church women like a gang rape or do you preach it's one man per church woman ?

I don't think I would want to be in this church you say is being raped.Is there any way church women can avoid being raped on the day of the Lord?


Zech 14
14 A day of the Lord is coming, Jerusalem, when your possessions will be plundered and divided up within your very walls.

2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Where Jesus was crucified is in Jerusalem today.Jerusalem covers 49 square miles and the place Jesus was crucified is well within the city.

Jesus was not crucified in Rome Italy so the beast from the abyss and the ten horns which hate the prostitute will be attacking Jerusalem and not Rome.

Revelation 11
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.



That is inside Jerusalem city limits.

I can't take this seriously. I show you scripture that specifically says He was crucified outside of the city and this is what you come up with? You clearly will do anything to make it say what you want it to say.

 

[tailgator]

I can't take this seriously. I show you scripture that specifically says He was crucified outside of the city and this is what you come up with? You clearly will do anything to make it say what you want it to say.

No you wouldn't take Jerusalems city limits seriously.
It's not just a little city anymore.Its 49 square miles of city.Where Jesus was crucified is well inside today's city of Jerusalem and it still will be next year when the two witnesses arrive.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

We know where Jesus was crucified

And it wasn't Rome. It wasn't even Jerusalem (John 19:20, Hebrews 13:12). What exactly is your explanation for Rome being the place where Jesus was crucified even in a symbolic sense? I don't see that He was crucified in Rome in any sense, but maybe you can explain that.

, so the symbolism identifies this "city" called "Babylon":

• Sodom: known for its exceptional depravity
• Egypt: known for their stubborn defiance against God
• Crucifixion: the worst judicial sentence

You are assuming that Babylon has to symbolically represent something else besides Babylon (Rome), but I believe that is a mistake.

It's not earthly Babylon, for sure, but it is Babylon and not anything else. It's called Mystery Babylon because it's identity is not obvious. That rules out earthly Babylon. The obvious options based on certain things that are said about it would be Jerusalem or Rome. But, neither of those fit the full description of Babylon. That's why I believe Babylon is Spiritual Babylon.

I believe it is called Mystery Babylon because it is spiritual in nature rather than symbolically representing an earthly city, which is the natural thing for people to assume (but, there's nothing mysterious about it in that case). Neither Jerusalem nor Rome have ever been "the habitation of devils, and the hold of EVERY foul spirit, and a cage of EVERY unclean and hateful bird." (Rev 18:4). No earthly city and no one religion is "the hold of EVERY foul spirit, and a cage of EVERY unclean and hateful bird". Some are the hold of many foul spirits and unclean and hateful birds, but not all. To me, only a universal spiritual entity can fit that description of Babylon. That's why I see Mystery Babylon as being the spiritual opposite of the New Jerusalem. It has reigned over the kings of the earth for a long time.

All these point to the papacy:

• The Protestant Reformation's "raison d'etre" was unlimited papal crimes, theological and otherwise
• The papacy stands with jaw set and fists clenched in God's face, claiming it takes His place on Earth
• "Inasmuch as ye have done it unto...my brethren, ye have done it unto Me". Between 75-150M innocent saints were slain by the papacy, the worst form of injustice there is.

I get why you think Rome, or more specifically the Roman Catholic church and its papacy, is Babylon. It definitely has things in common with it (it is part of it, but not all of it, in my opinion). However, there are certain aspects of Babylon that don't fit the RCC and its papacy. I already mentioned one above from Revelation 18:4, but there's also this:

Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

This is very similar to what Jesus said about Jerusalem in Matthew 23. This does not fit Rome and the papacy. But, it's not Jerusalem, either, because Babylon is not only responsible for "the blood of prophets" like Jerusalem was, but also "all that were slain upon the earth". That goes beyond just Jerusalem. Babylon encompasses Jerusalem, Rome and all wicked cities, all false religions of the world. Its scope is beyond either Jerusalem or Rome or any other earthly city or any religious system like Judaism or Roman Catholicism. That is clear to me, at least.

The Two Witnesses are thought to be Moses and Elijah because Revelation 11 describes what Moses and Elijah did - but these Two Witness are actually describing the power behind what they did: God's Word, according to Zechariah 4:1-6 KJV.

Historicism rejects neo-Jesuit Futurism's claim that "the prophetic clock stopped at the Cross and will resume when the church disappears in the secret rapture"

Good! I reject that, too. I too am at least partly a historicist in the sense that I believe Mystery Babylon has been reigning over the kings of the earth throughout history with no time in history when it wasn't.

and traces prophecy down through the ages and has the Two Witnesses describing the 3 1/2 literal years that the Bible was discarded during the French Revolution - which, I know, is laughable to those unfamiliar with or unwilling to accept Protestant Historicism.

I personally believe that none of the time references in the book of Revelation are meant to be taken literally. I think people miss a lot of the symbolism in the book. The book is said to be signified (Revelation 1:1) which implies that it would contain a great deal of symbolism. Not that every word is symbolic and nothing in it is literal. I'm just saying I believe there is more symbolism in the book than many people think.

With all that said, I certainly see your historicist view as being more reasonable and viable than either futurism or preterism, so we have that in common.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No you wouldn't take Jerusalems city limits seriously.

He wasn't crucified yesterday, He was crucified almost 2,000 years ago. The context is where He was crucified at the time He was actually crucified, which was outside Jerusalem. You can't try to change what John 19:20 and Hebrews 13:12 say. That's a dishonest handling of scripture.

 

[Timtofly]

The heads of the beast are previous governments already mentioned in Daniel, and includes the papal church which had also fallen when viewed from the time of the judgement. Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Pagan Rome, followed by papal Rome, all fallen.

You have this ok, but then stuck on the historical papacy as if it still exists. A mortal wound is just that. The 6th kingdom is not a dead papacy that was, is not, yet is.

It is simply just a dead, non-existent kingdom. No one central government controls the earth.

There is no future human to be an antichrist. There is a human false prophet.

Satan is part and parcel in all of John's symbolism. Satan is still Paul's man of sin. Satan is one of the heads. Satan is even called the beast that was, not is,

"And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."

This is referring to the 7 heads. The 7 heads of the dragon, the 7 heads of the sea beast, and the 7 heads of the scarlet colored beast are all the same heads throughout history including Satan as one of the heads. Satan has always been, is not, while at the same time the 7th head, who will be the 8th kingdom after Jesus is declared the 7th Kingdom.

 

[tailgator]

He wasn't crucified yesterday, He was crucified almost 2,000 years ago. The context is where He was crucified at the time He was actually crucified, which was outside Jerusalem. You can't try to change what John 19:20 and Hebrews 13:12 say. That's a dishonest handling of scripture.

Where he was crucified is in Jerusalem today and is the same next year when the two witnesses arrive.


Don't act like Jesus was crucified in some other city..The two witnesses will be in Jerusalem where our Lord was crucified.Not Rome,New York or Moscow.


The two witnesses may even lay dead in the very same spot where Christ was crucified for all you know.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified

 

[tailgator]

He wasn't crucified yesterday, He was crucified almost 2,000 years ago. The context is where He was crucified at the time He was actually crucified, which was outside Jerusalem. You can't try to change what John 19:20 and Hebrews 13:12 say. That's a dishonest handling of scripture.

The Church of the Holy Sepulchre is a Romanesque/Baroque church in Jerusalem's Old City that is traditionally built on the site of Golgotha, where Jesus was crucified and buried. The church was dedicated in 335 C.E. by Constantine the Great, and rebuilt in 1048 C.E.. It has a capacity of 8,000 people and includes the following features:

• Rock of Calvary: The spot of the crucifixion, which is encased in glass at the Altar of the Crucifixion and is the most-visited area of the church
• Stone of Anointing: Where Christ's body was prepared for burial
• Tomb chamber: Where Jesus was buried
  
  

 

[tailgator]

He wasn't crucified yesterday, He was crucified almost 2,000 years ago. The context is where He was crucified at the time He was actually crucified, which was outside Jerusalem. You can't try to change what John 19:20 and Hebrews 13:12 say. That's a dishonest handling of scripture.

Church of the holy sepulcher,Jerusalem.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

@tailgator I don't find your arguments to be convincing at all. I believe you're trying to change scripture which specifically says He was crucified outside of Jerusalem (John 19:20, Hebrews 13:12). I stand by what I've said and have nothing to add to it.

 

[tailgator]

@tailgator I don't find your arguments to be convincing at all. I believe you're trying to change scripture which specifically says He was crucified outside of Jerusalem (John 19:20, Hebrews 13:12). I stand by what I've said and have nothing to add to it.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified


Anyone who thinks our Lord was crucified in Rome needs their head examined.

 

[Phoneman777]

You believe the church will be raped on the day of the Lord?

The harlot woman riding the beast with the name "Babylon" on her foreheard - symbol of the church controlling the state - will be "burned with fire" in the end.

 

[Phoneman777]

You honestly believe God will cause the church to be raped?

14 A day of the Lord is coming, Jerusalem, when your possessions will be plundered and divided up within your very walls.

2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city


Why do you believe God wants the church raped?

Prophecies of the destruction of Jerusalem came to pass by the hand of the Romans.
Prophecies of restoration now pertain to the church.

I didn't think it was necessary for me to say that, but I often overestimate those with whom I speak.

 

[Phoneman777]

The day of the Lord is when Jerusalem(aka Babylon )is attacked by the nations.The houses will be ransacked and the women raped.

Zech 14
14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.


A prophecy against Babylon.

Isaiah 13
9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.

17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.

When you can prove Jerusalem was reigning "over the kings of the Earth" in 95 A.D. when John got the vision of Revelation 17, I'll join you in your Jesuit Futurist ideas.

 

[Timtofly]

Beasts are and will always remain political empires or nations. That is why I am so opposed to the idea of the beast being considered an individual. It isn't. And we need to be careful concerning the image.

Not necessarily.

A beast is not an individual human. But Satan is also called a beast. The serpent in the Garden was an individual beast of the field.

"Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made."

"And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:"

"And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years."

So we see Satan can be identified as an individual beast.

I think you mean that the heads of beast that are multi-headed represent empires or historical nations. So are mountains.

"And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains."

Mountains are symbolic of kingdoms.

This is also from Daniel 2.

 

[Brakelite]

Not necessarily.

A beast is not an individual human. But Satan is also called a beast. The serpent in the Garden was an individual beast of the field.

"Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made."

"And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:"

"And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years."

So we see Satan can be identified as an individual beast.

I think you mean that the heads of beast that are multi-headed represent empires or historical nations. So are mountains.

"And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains."

Mountains are symbolic of kingdoms.

This is also from Daniel 2.

Throughout history Satan has used agents through which he has deceived God's people. Even in the garden he used the serpent to deceive Eve. The entire end time scenario as we read of it in the prophets, is based on deception, mixed with physical persecution when at those times it is to his advantage to use. But always thorough his agents, usually governments, but during the dark ages, the Roman church, who in turn, used governments. Hence the beasts. I do agree with you in as much as I believe that at the very end, when all else has failed to deceive or triumph over God's people, Satan will resort to his only remaining option, to counterfeit the second coming and impersonate Christ himself. I won't go into the reasons why I believe this, they are detailed and rather convoluted, but the very final delusion of mankind I believe, immediately before the real second coming of Christ, is Satan himself, but not appearing as himself of course, because he is still even then practising deception, appearing to different peoples around the globe, as the false Messiah. To the Hindus, Krishna. To the Muslims, Mahdi. To the Christians, Jesus. To the Jews, Messiah, etc etc. But he will not be able to mimic the real second coming, where every eye shall see Him, lightening from one end of the earth to the other, the glory of Christ and the angels. But he will try. And many will be deceived by the words, the actions, the speech, the apparent miracles and signs and wonders. But, and this is a huge but, He will not be able to deceive the very elect. The beasts however of prophecy, still are depictions of earthly powers, but I would go along with the idea that in and behind those powers, Satan is in control as far as he is permitted.

 

[Phoneman777]

And it wasn't Rome. It wasn't even Jerusalem (John 19:20, Hebrews 13:12).

Correct, it was "outside" the city as the "heir" was taken "outside" the vineyard and killed in the parable.

What exactly is your explanation for Rome being the place where Jesus was crucified even in a symbolic sense? I don't see that He was crucified in Rome in any sense, but maybe you can explain that.

"Insomuch as ye have done it unto the least of these..."

You are assuming that Babylon has to symbolically represent something else besides Babylon (Rome), but I believe that is a mistake.

"Babylon" represents "religious confusion". Pagan Rome was the king of all pagan sun worship cultures which taught "deliverance by works" - their Pantheon had absorbed so many "gods" that they lost count. The papacy is ancient mystery sun worship religion of "salvation by works" perfected.

It's not earthly Babylon, for sure, but it is Babylon and not anything else. It's called Mystery Babylon because it's identity is not obvious. That rules out earthly Babylon. The obvious options based on certain things that are said about it would be Jerusalem or Rome. But, neither of those fit the full description of Babylon. That's why I believe Babylon is Spiritual Babylon.

Absolutely - lsaiah 13 assures us that Babylon will never be rebuilt.

I believe it is called Mystery Babylon because it is spiritual in nature rather than symbolically representing an earthly city, which is the natural thing for people to assume (but, there's nothing mysterious about it in that case). Neither Jerusalem nor Rome have ever been "the habitation of devils, and the hold of EVERY foul spirit, and a cage of EVERY unclean and hateful bird." (Rev 18:4). No earthly city and no one religion is "the hold of EVERY foul spirit, and a cage of EVERY unclean and hateful bird". Some are the hold of many foul spirits and unclean and hateful birds, but not all. To me, only a universal spiritual entity can fit that description of Babylon. That's why I see Mystery Babylon as being the spiritual opposite of the New Jerusalem. It has reigned over the kings of the earth for a long time.

Exactly! When you put all the pieces together, the only picture that emerges is the papacy must be "Mystery, Babylon the Great, the MOTHER of harlots".

I get why you think Rome, or more specifically the Roman Catholic church and its papacy, is Babylon. It definitely has things in common with it (it is part of it, but not all of it, in my opinion). However, there are certain aspects of Babylon that don't fit the RCC and its papacy. I already mentioned one above from Revelation 18:4, but there's also this:

Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

It is estimated the papacy put to death between 75-150 MILLION innocent saints - that's a lot of blood.

This is very similar to what Jesus said about Jerusalem in Matthew 23. This does not fit Rome and the papacy. But, it's not Jerusalem, either, because Babylon is not only responsible for "the blood of prophets" like Jerusalem was,

There are Christian prophets in the NT - Philip had four daughters who prophesied, for example. The gift of prophecy, however, disappeared when the papacy came to power and (thought to) changed God's law, because of the principle that the law and the gift of prophecy goes hand in hand.

Good! I reject that, too. I too am at least partly a historicist in the sense that I believe Mystery Babylon has been reigning over the kings of the earth throughout history with no time in history when it wasn't.


I personally believe that none of the time references in the book of Revelation are meant to be taken literally. I think people miss a lot of the symbolism in the book. The book is said to be signified (Revelation 1:1) which implies that it would contain a great deal of symbolism. Not that every word is symbolic and nothing in it is literal. I'm just saying I believe there is more symbolism in the book than many people think.

I've spoken with Earburner about how inconsistent it is for him to insist that the 70 Weeks are 490 symbolic days or literal years, but the 2300 Days from which the 70 Weeks are "cut off" are supposed to be literal days. The only way prophecy makes sense is to consistently apply the "day/year" principle.

With all that said, I certainly see your historicist view as being more reasonable and viable than either futurism or preterism, so we have that in common.

Friend, you're among the very few who won't allow the Cognitive Dissonance coping mechanism in our brains - which throws out the "new truth" and retains the old, comfortable "old truth" - you strike me as one who, when confronted with two ideas that seem to both be true, you rather choose to investigate until only the one emerges as truth, and the other is left as it is: merely "apparent" truth but not truth at all.