Who, or what, is the dreaded bogey man of prophecy?

[Spiritual Israelite]

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified


Anyone who thinks our Lord was crucified in Rome needs their head examined.

Anyone who thinks I believe that the Lord was crucified in Rome needs their head examined since I never said that. Learn how to read. I told you my understanding of Babylon in post #86 and I did not say I believe it is Rome, I believe the great city Babylon is the spiritual opposite of the holy city, New Jerusalem.

 

[Brakelite]

I believe Mystery Babylon has been reigning over the kings of the earth throughout history with no time in history when it wasn't.

I agree. Akin to the mystery of iniquity, which began even before creation with Lucifer in heaven. Of course, it wasn't called Babylon then, but iniquity became institutionalized at Babel. Babylon was the outgrowth of that rebellious independent sell preservation prideful spirit of Babel. As a spiritual power, it outlasted the physical empire. In Daniel we read...
KJV Daniel 7:12
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
So while those literal physical empires came and went, the spiritual power and influence and philosophy continued and was inherited by each subsequent power. Finally, we see the sea beast of Revelation 13, a composite of all those empires... But not of their literal presence, but the inheritor of their philosophies, their occult thinking, and their satanic deception. Which we witness, for those that have eyes to see, inherent today within the Catholic communion. That does not mean there are no Christians within Catholicism. But they are Christians by the grace and power of God, and rather despite their affiliation to the church, not because of it.

@tailgator I don't find your arguments to be convincing at all. I believe you're trying to change scripture which specifically says He was crucified outside of Jerusalem (John 19:20, Hebrews 13:12). I stand by what I've said and have nothing to add to it.

It was necessary for Christ to be crucified outside the gate. Just as the sacrifices throughout the wilderness excursions were sacrificed outside the sanctuary in the courtyard. But the real sanctuary is in heaven. Jesus had to come to the courtyard in order to be slain... The earth. The earth was "outside the gate".
As for Rome being Babylon. History reveals some stunning truths regarding the history of the Babylonian priesthood after the demise of the empire at the hands of the Persians. The Babylonian priesthood, the Chaldeans, took their idols and their sorceries, and their occult practises to Pergamum, where they formed that age old tradition of occultism...a union between church and state. The king's of Pergamum were in lock step with the priesthood. Now I'm not sure why, it is a long time since I learned of this, but when the Roman Empire took over Asia minor, the king of Pergamum bequeathed the power, the throne, (where Satan's seat is) the authority, and spiritual occult religious practises to the Roman Emperor. One refused, but the next one received it. What is fascinating however is that the Roman bishops in the 3rd and 4th centuries accepted the titles and all that was associated with that Babylonian priesthood, among them being the title Pontifex Maximus. And there is your connection between ancient Babylon, mystery Babylon the Great, pagan Rome and papal Rome.
Now. To the Great city where our Lord was crucified. Satan cannot reach Christ. But he can reach His church. Revelation 11 in the timeline of the historical narrative fits in between the time of the mortal head wound of the Catholic church, 1798. That being the defusing of papal political power by K Napoleon's general Berthier when he entered Rome And arrested the Pope who died in exile. The church itself remained, but the occult union of church and state was dissolved... Temporarily.
This was the time of the French revolution. 3 and a half years (3 days and a half lying in the streets) of violent murderous ideological insanity against the church, and the destruction of the Bible, and the war against both Catholic and Protestant. The Bible banned. Burnt in the streets. A false goddess set up in place of Christ. A type of Antichrist. Licentiousness. Depravity. Social breakdown with the enforced dissolving of family unity and marriage, the legal enactments against traditional values, (Sodom) and the birth of institutionalized atheism, the roots of modern communism and evolution. (Egypt. "Who is this God that I should let Israel go?") In your face blatant blasphemous denial of the existence of God. It was this mystery of iniquity that crucified Christ. Again.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

"Insomuch as ye have done it unto the least of these..."

This was your answer to my question about how Rome represent the place where Jesus was crucified. Can you explain what you meant by this?

Exactly! When you put all the pieces together, the only picture that emerges is the papacy must be "Mystery, Babylon the Great, the MOTHER of harlots".

I don't see it that way. Again, I believe Babylon is Spiritual Babylon and is the direct spiritual opposite of the New Heavenly Jerusalem, which is the MOTHER of all believers.

Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the MOTHER of us all.

I don't see Babylon as representing any particular earthly entity like the papacy or Jerusalem. I believe the papacy and Jerusalem (or Judaism) are two of the many harlots of which Spiritual Babylon is the mother. Others would include Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Atheism, Secular Humanism, Evolution, and all other false religions and belief systems of the world that oppose the one true God.

Revelation 18:2 says Mystery Babylon is "the hold of EVERY foul spirit, and a cage of EVERY unclean and hateful bird.". That doesn't describe the papacy, which is not the hold of EVERY foul spirit and EVERY unclean and hateful bird, since other false religions and philosophies of the world also contain foul spirits and unclean and hateful birds.

It is estimated the papacy put to death between 75-150 MILLION innocent saints - that's a lot of blood.

Yes, it is. But, it's not all of the blood that Babylon has spilled. Obviously, the religious Jews like the Pharisees and scribes put many Christians to death and Islam has also killed many Christians and so on.

Friend, you're among the very few who won't allow the Cognitive Dissonance coping mechanism in our brains - which throws out the "new truth" and retains the old, comfortable "old truth" - you strike me as one who, when confronted with two ideas that seem to both be true, you rather choose to investigate until only the one emerges as truth, and the other is left as it is: merely "apparent" truth but not truth at all.

I am not entirely sure what you were intending to say here. Can you clarify?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I agree. Akin to the mystery of iniquity, which began even before creation with Lucifer in heaven. Of course, it wasn't called Babylon then, but iniquity became institutionalized at Babel. Babylon was the outgrowth of that rebellious independent sell preservation prideful spirit of Babel. As a spiritual power, it outlasted the physical empire. In Daniel we read...
KJV Daniel 7:12
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
So while those literal physical empires came and went, the spiritual power and influence and philosophy continued and was inherited by each subsequent power. Finally, we see the sea beast of Revelation 13, a composite of all those empires... But not of their literal presence, but the inheritor of their philosophies, their occult thinking, and their satanic deception. Which we witness, for those that have eyes to see, inherent today within the Catholic communion. That does not mean there are no Christians within Catholicism. But they are Christians by the grace and power of God, and rather despite their affiliation to the church, not because of it.

I believe that the scope of Babylon goes even beyond Roman Catholicism. It is the mother of ALL harlots of which Catholicism is one. Buddhism is another. Islam is another. Hinduism is another. And so on. I believe all false religions, cults and philosophies of the world that oppose the one true God and all of the unbelievers who follows after those false entitities have Spiritual Babylon as their mother.

Romans 18:4 says "Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.". This is God's call for people to repent of following after the world and its anti-Christian beliefs and embrace the gospel and become part of God's family in the New Jerusalem instead.

It reminds me of this:

John 15:17 These things I command you, that ye love one another. 18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. 19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

So, "the world" in this context represents all of the things that oppose the one true God. All of the false religions and false belief systems of the world. This is how I view Mystery Babylon. We are not to be of those things, but instead we are spiritual citizens of the New Heavenly Jerusalem (Hebrews 12:22, Galatians 4:26).

Revelation 18:4 also reminds me of this:

2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

In Revelation 18:4 Jesus/God says "Come out from her, my people". In 2 Cor 6:17, Paul, inspired by God, says "come out from among them, and be ye separate". Come out from what? Spiritual Babylon and all it represents as the spiritual opposite of New Jerusalem. It represents literally all false belief systems of unbelievers that oppose the one true God.

Come out from among who? All those whose mother is Mystery Babylon instead of the New Heavenly Jerusalem. As Paul said, "be ye not unequally yoked with unbelievers. So, come out from among all unbelievers. Those who practice unrighteousness. Those who are in spiritual darkness. Those who follow after Belial, which I believe is another name for Satan (Belial means evil or wickedness so that name describes that character trait of Satan). Those who bow down to and worship idols instead of God.

It was necessary for Christ to be crucified outside the gate. Just as the sacrifices throughout the wilderness excursions were sacrificed outside the sanctuary in the courtyard. But the real sanctuary is in heaven. Jesus had to come to the courtyard in order to be slain... The earth. The earth was "outside the gate".

So, you are equating the great city where our Lord was crucified with the earth then? Which would mean you're saying Babylon is the earth?

As for Rome being Babylon.

I thought you were just saying the earth is Babylon. I'm having a little trouble following what you're saying.

History reveals some stunning truths regarding the history of the Babylonian priesthood after the demise of the empire at the hands of the Persians. The Babylonian priesthood, the Chaldeans, took their idols and their sorceries, and their occult practises to Pergamum, where they formed that age old tradition of occultism...a union between church and state. The king's of Pergamum were in lock step with the priesthood. Now I'm not sure why, it is a long time since I learned of this, but when the Roman Empire took over Asia minor, the king of Pergamum bequeathed the power, the throne, (where Satan's seat is) the authority, and spiritual occult religious practises to the Roman Emperor. One refused, but the next one received it. What is fascinating however is that the Roman bishops in the 3rd and 4th centuries accepted the titles and all that was associated with that Babylonian priesthood, among them being the title Pontifex Maximus. And there is your connection between ancient Babylon, mystery Babylon the Great, pagan Rome and papal Rome.
Now. To the Great city where our Lord was crucified. Satan cannot reach Christ. But he can reach His church. Revelation 11 in the timeline of the historical narrative fits in between the time of the mortal head wound of the Catholic church, 1798. That being the defusing of papal political power by K Napoleon's general Berthier when he entered Rome And arrested the Pope who died in exile. The church itself remained, but the occult union of church and state was dissolved... Temporarily.
This was the time of the French revolution. 3 and a half years (3 days and a half lying in the streets) of violent murderous ideological insanity against the church, and the destruction of the Bible, and the war against both Catholic and Protestant. The Bible banned. Burnt in the streets. A false goddess set up in place of Christ. A type of Antichrist. Licentiousness. Depravity. Social breakdown with the enforced dissolving of family unity and marriage, the legal enactments against traditional values, (Sodom) and the birth of institutionalized atheism, the roots of modern communism and evolution. (Egypt. "Who is this God that I should let Israel go?") In your face blatant blasphemous denial of the existence of God. It was this mystery of iniquity that crucified Christ. Again.

I'm sorry, but that was hard to follow. I don't think the identity of Babylon is as complicated as all that. Again, I see Mystery Babylon, the mother of all harlots, as being the spiritual opposite of New Heavenly Jerusalem, the mother of us all (all believers - Galatians 4:26). All believers are spiritual children and citizens of New Jerusalem and all unbelievers are spiritual children and citizens of Mystery Babylon.

 

[Phoneman777]

This was your answer to my question about how Rome represent the place where Jesus was crucified. Can you explain what you meant by this?

Jesus said what's done to His children is done to Him.

In Sodom, the exceeding wickedness and hatred of righteousness by the inhabitants brought down the judgment of God, exemplified by the unbridled hostility and defiance of the men of Sodom who sought to rape and murder God's people for daring to rebuke them.

In Egypt, God's people suffered many forms of persecution, which included a royal edict to have all infant males cast into the Nile.

In this way, the Lord Jesus was "crucified" in Sodom and in Egypt, and "the great city" in which the Two Witnesses lie dead is spiritually called as such - the "great city" being "the papal kingdom" where the whore with "Mystery, Babylon the Great, the Mother of harlots" on her forehead rides the Beast.

I don't see it that way. Again, I believe Babylon is Spiritual Babylon and is the direct spiritual opposite of the New Heavenly Jerusalem, which is the MOTHER of all believers.

Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the MOTHER of us all.

Yes, Jerusalem which is above is indeed the mother of us all.

However, the catholic church claims to be the "mother" church from whom all other "harlot daughters" broke away, claiming "Sola Scriptura" but are actually are following papal traditions of men.

I don't see Babylon as representing any particular earthly entity like the papacy or Jerusalem. I believe the papacy and Jerusalem (or Judaism) are two of the many harlots of which Spiritual Babylon is the mother. Others would include Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Atheism, Secular Humanism, Evolution, and all other false religions and belief systems of the world that oppose the one true God.

"Babylon" is an umbrella term for "religious confusion" which covers the errors of the papacy, apostate Protestantism, paganism, occultism, etc. - the global religion of the NWO found in Revelation 18 which joins with the "kings" and the "merchants" aka the NWO global government and economic system, respectively.

Revelation 18:2 says Mystery Babylon is "the hold of EVERY foul spirit, and a cage of EVERY unclean and hateful bird.". That doesn't describe the papacy, which is not the hold of EVERY foul spirit and EVERY unclean and hateful bird, since other false religions and philosophies of the world also contain foul spirits and unclean and hateful birds.

All contained in the halls of the Vatican.

Yes, it is. But, it's not all of the blood that Babylon has spilled. Obviously, the religious Jews like the Pharisees and scribes put many Christians to death and Islam has also killed many Christians and so on.

Sure, history is fraught with injustice toward God's people since the time of Abel...but the woman identified as "Mystery, Babylon the Great, the Mother of harlots" riding the Beast can only point to the papacy.

I am not entirely sure what you were intending to say here. Can you clarify?

At the risk of sounding presumptuous, the truths I preach are airtight because they not only present consistent, perfectly plausible Biblical interpretations, but they also expose where competing theories fall short.

For instance, I've repeatedly pointed out to those who deny the Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable that God's Bible only speaks of two kinds of bodies - the mortal "earthly house of this tabernacle" body we wear now and the resurrection "house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens" body we put on in the resurrection - afterward, I've called upon them to explain how in the world can the Rich Man, Lazarus, and Abraham be clothed in bodies complete with tongues, eyes, fingers, and legs to carry warnings to 5 brothers, when their mortal bodies are rotting in the ground but the resurrection hasn't yet come to pass.

So, when a believer who thinks the Rich Man and Lazarus is a literal account suddenly discovers the things within it cannot and do not happen in real experience and finds himself holding two opposing views as both true at the same time knowing they both can't be true ("cognitive dissonance"), the resulting state of psychological confusion and discomfort leads most people to toss out the "new uncomfortable truth" and retain the "old comfortable truth" - because they'd rather be comforted by a lie than made uncomfortable with the truth.

Others, presumably such as you, are satisfied with nothing less than figuring out which is actually true and which only appears to be true.

 

[tailgator]

Prophecies of the destruction of Jerusalem came to pass by the hand of the Romans.
Prophecies of restoration now pertain to the church.

I didn't think it was necessary for me to say that, but I often overestimate those with whom I speak.

You preterists don't know what your talking about. The word of God says the Lord fights against those nations and they are consumed The Romans which came against Jerusalem were not consumed.

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth


You going to lie and say the roman army was consumed as they stood on their feet?

 

[tailgator]

When you can prove Jerusalem was reigning "over the kings of the Earth" in 95 A.D. when John got the vision of Revelation 17, I'll join you in your Jesuit Futurist ideas.

It reigns over the kings of the earth while the two witnesses are there.
When you prove these two witnesses are not killed by the beast that ascends out of the abyss,I might believe yout lies.

 

[tailgator]

Anyone who thinks I believe that the Lord was crucified in Rome needs their head examined since I never said that. Learn how to read. I told you my understanding of Babylon in post #86 and I did not say I believe it is Rome, I believe the great city Babylon is the spiritual opposite of the holy city, New Jerusalem.

Babylon which is opposite of New Jerusalem,is earthy Jerusalem who is in captivity with her children.

Where our Lord was crucified.

Same great city where the several earthquake strikes at the time the two witnesses stand on their feet.

Revelation 11:8-

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.


Earthquakes take place on earth.Not in heaven.And our Lord was not crucified in a fairy land .He was crucified where the church of the holy sepulture is in the great city of Jerusalem.

 

[Phoneman777]

You preterists

I'm a Protestant Historicist and your insistence on confusing that with Jesuit Preterism proves you don't understand a thing about Historicism and therefore are wholly unqualified to comment on it...which is to be expected from one seduced by the Babylonian wine of Jesuit Futurism.

 

[Phoneman777]

It reigns over the kings of the earth while the two witnesses are there.

Again, when the angel told John of the city that was "reigning over the kings of the Earth" he had already finished the chapter 17 revelation and had commenced explaining it to John - which means "is that great city" is present perfect tense, as is "reigneth over the kings of the Earth" which is also present perfect tense, both referring to Rome.

The Woman, the Beast, the Two Witnesses were to arrive on the scene later.

When you prove these two witnesses are not killed by the beast that ascends out of the abyss,I might believe yout lies.

The 42 months aka "1260 years" reign of the papal Beast is paralleled by the prophesying of the Two "OT and NT" Witnesses clothed in sackcloth for the exact same duration.

At the end of the 1260 years, another Beast ascended out of the "bottomless pit" right on time - atheistic secular humanism of the French Revolution - and killed these Two Witnesses for exactly 3 1/2 years and replaced them with the "god of reason".

BTW, since you refuse to study anything except Jesuit Futurist nonsense, allow me to say that the difference between Protestant Historicism and Jesuit Preterism is that the former demonstrates the truth that "prophecy parallels history" while the latter falsely claims that all prophecies of the Bible were fulfilled in the 1st century A.D.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Jesus said what's done to His children is done to Him.

In Sodom, the exceeding wickedness and hatred of righteousness by the inhabitants brought down the judgment of God, exemplified by the unbridled hostility and defiance of the men of Sodom who sought to rape and murder God's people for daring to rebuke them.

In Egypt, God's people suffered many forms of persecution, which included a royal edict to have all infant males cast into the Nile.

In this way, the Lord Jesus was "crucified" in Sodom and in Egypt, and "the great city" in which the Two Witnesses lie dead is spiritually called as such - the "great city" being "the papal kingdom" where the whore with "Mystery, Babylon the Great, the Mother of harlots" on her forehead rides the Beast.

Yes, Jerusalem which is above is indeed the mother of us all.

However, the catholic church claims to be the "mother" church from whom all other "harlot daughters" broke away, claiming "Sola Scriptura" but are actually are following papal traditions of men.

"Babylon" is an umbrella term for "religious confusion" which covers the errors of the papacy, apostate Protestantism, paganism, occultism, etc. - the global religion of the NWO found in Revelation 18 which joins with the "kings" and the "merchants" aka the NWO global government and economic system, respectively.

All contained in the halls of the Vatican.

Sure, history is fraught with injustice toward God's people since the time of Abel...but the woman identified as "Mystery, Babylon the Great, the Mother of harlots" riding the Beast can only point to the papacy.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this. I appreciate that you reject the nonsense of both futurism and preterism, but in my view Babylon encompasses more than just the papacy. It is the mother of ALL harlots of which the papacy is one with the rest being all other false religious and philosophical systems. I see Babylon as the direct opposite of New Jerusalem. Literally all believers are spiritual citizens of New Jerusalem and literally all unbelievers are citizens of Mystery Babylon. I just can't see including all unbelievers as being ruled over by the papacy.

Even you say that ""Babylon" is an umbrella term for "religious confusion" which covers the errors of the papacy, apostate Protestantism, paganism, occultism, etc.", but then you somehow make Babylon equivalent to the papacy itself instead of seeing Babylon as the mother of all harlots including "the papacy, apostate Protestantism, paganism, occultism, etc.". So, that's where we differ on this. But, both of our views are far from the nonsense we see being put forth by both futurism and preterism.

At the risk of sounding presumptuous, the truths I preach are airtight because they not only present consistent, perfectly plausible Biblical interpretations, but they also expose where competing theories fall short.

I believe the same about what I preach, yet we don't fully agree. Don't ever stop asking God for wisdom and studying scripture. Don't ever think that you have all the answers because you don't and neither do I. There's always more to learn.

For instance, I've repeatedly pointed out to those who deny the Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable that God's Bible only speaks of two kinds of bodies - the mortal "earthly house of this tabernacle" body we wear now and the resurrection "house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens" body we put on in the resurrection - afterward, I've called upon them to explain how in the world can the Rich Man, Lazarus, and Abraham be clothed in bodies complete with tongues, eyes, fingers, and legs to carry warnings to 5 brothers, when their mortal bodies are rotting in the ground but the resurrection hasn't yet come to pass.

It's not a parable in the sense that it's a completely made up story. That should be obvious simply in the fact that it mentions real people like the beggar Lazarus, Abraham, Moses and the prophets. With that being the case, there's no reason to think that the rich man and his 5 brothers are not real people as well. Does this mean everything said in the text also has to be literal, such as the rich man asking for Lazarus to cool down his tongue because he was burning in literal fire? No, of course not.

Do you think Matthew 25:31-46 is a parable? It's not. A parable is a completely made up story that represents things in reality, like Matthew 25:1-14 and Matthew 25:15-30. But, Matthew 25:31-46 is not a made up story and refers to real people and things and is about something that will really happen. It includes non-literal terms like sheep and goats and such, but that doesn't make it a parable. Jesus will indeed come back with His angels. He indeed will have His angels separate all people into two groups and will judge all people by what they have done when He comes with each person either inheriting eternal life in the kingdom of God or being cast into "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels". Just because people are figuratively called sheep and goats there doesn't make it a parable.

So, that is how I see Luke 16:19-31 as well. It contains some figurative text, but also refers to real people and a real spiritual place called hell or Hades where people experience torment and a real spiritual place that it figuratively calls "Abraham's bosom" which is simply another term for paradise.

When it refers to the rich man asking for Lazarus to cool his tongue with water because of being in agony in fire, that is a figurative representation of the torment he was feeling in hell. Hell is often referred to figuratively in scripture in relation to fire because it can't be described literally in a way that we can currently understand. How can we possibly understand exactly what it's like in the spiritual realm when we haven't been there, right? Hell/Hades is not a physical place, it is a spiritual place where the souls and spirits of unbelievers go when they die. They are conscious there and are tormented with regret for having stubbornly refused to repent when they had the chance.

That people are conscious after physical death is indicated in other scripture as well, such as Revelation 6:9-11 as well as in the fact that both Moses and Elijah were conscious and actually talked to Jesus at His transfiguration. You rightly complain about the false religious system of the papacy, but you have chosen to align yourself with another false religious system known as Seventh Day Adventism. There are Christians like you in both systems since neither belief system denies the death and resurrection of Christ nor His deity, but they still both contain false doctrine. In the case of SDA, it teaches the false doctrine of soul sleep. And this is why, despite your end times doctrine being quite similar to mine in a number of ways, you are a premillennialist rather than an amillennialist like me since you don't believe it's possible for the souls of the dead in Christ to be currently reigning with Him in heaven.

So, when a believer who thinks the Rich Man and Lazarus is a literal account suddenly discovers the things within it cannot and do not happen in real experience and finds himself holding two opposing views as both true at the same time knowing they both can't be true ("cognitive dissonance"), the resulting state of psychological confusion and discomfort leads most people to toss out the "new uncomfortable truth" and retain the "old comfortable truth" - because they'd rather be comforted by a lie than made uncomfortable with the truth.

For whatever reason, you limited the way in which someone can understand Luke 16:19-31 to only two options, neither of which is how I interpret it. I don't believe it's right for you to think that you are the one who decides for everyone what the possible interpretations are for any given passage.

Others, presumably such as you, are satisfied with nothing less than figuring out which is actually true and which only appears to be true.

Yes, that is true about me as evidenced by the fact that I don't just blindly agree with majority opinion on things such as the identity of Mystery Babylon and such.

 

[Timtofly]

When you can prove Jerusalem was reigning "over the kings of the Earth" in 95 A.D. when John got the vision of Revelation 17, I'll join you in your Jesuit Futurist ideas.

Jerusalem will not rule over the Kings of the earth until the 7th Trumpet sounds. Did the 7th Trumpet sound in 95AD? You all place the events in the first century, that have not happened yet, because you think as preterist do that John was talking about the first century. The point of view was from when the Trumpets literally sound in the future.

Not that the Trumpets were sounded in the future, but pointed to events 2,000 years before they sounded.

Even if you don't think people literally hear them, why would any one say they won't sound.

 

[Phoneman777]

Even you say that ""Babylon" is an umbrella term for "religious confusion" which covers the errors of the papacy, apostate Protestantism, paganism, occultism, etc.", but then you somehow make Babylon equivalent to the papacy itself instead of seeing Babylon as the mother of all harlots including "the papacy, apostate Protestantism, paganism, occultism, etc.".

The evidence points to widespread papal control of politics and religion via a network of Jesuit controlled secret societies:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLTbHLOB5jHyPxt6B3dZfpVCTpDK6VdBUi

When it refers to the rich man asking for Lazarus to cool his tongue with water because of being in agony in fire, that is a figurative representation of the torment he was feeling in hell.

I would say that's circular reasoning. We can't substantiate doctrine on uninterpreted parables, yet many point to Luke 16 as "proof" that hell is burning right now, though 2 Peter 2:9 KJV clearly says the punishment of the wicked is future.

That people are conscious after physical death is indicated in other scripture as well, such as Revelation 6:9-11

Revelation is a symbolic book, and this is figurative for the injustice done to martyrs crying out to God for Him to exact divine justice.

as well as in the fact that both Moses and Elijah were conscious and actually talked to Jesus at His transfiguration.

That's because Elijah didn't die. As for Moses, were Michael and Satan in dispute over who would get to stuff Moses' body like a game trophy or donate it to science? It should be clear to all the dispute was over God's intention to resurrect the body of Moses, with Satan likely accusing Moses to be as worthy of damnation as he is. Moses was able to appear with Elijah in the Mount because Michael (pre-incarnate Jesus) resurrected him.

You rightly complain about the false religious system of the papacy, but you have chosen to align yourself with another false religious system known as Seventh Day Adventism. There are Christians like you in both systems since neither belief system denies the death and resurrection of Christ nor His deity, but they still both contain false doctrine. In the case of SDA, it teaches the false doctrine of soul sleep. And this is why, despite your end times doctrine being quite similar to mine in a number of ways, you are a premillennialist rather than an amillennialist like me since you don't believe it's possible for the souls of the dead in Christ to be currently reigning with Him in heaven.

As I said, our doctrines are air tight and cannot be disproven. There are 14 irresolvable contradictions that result from claiming the Rich Man and Lazarus proves consciousness in death, so feel free to try and resolve even one of them:

14 IRRESOLVABLE CONTRADICTIONS WHICH RESULT FROM A LITERAL RICH MAN AND LAZARUS

BY CORRECTLY CONCLUDING that the story of Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable, we maintain Scriptural harmony, discern a valuable lesson from its interpretation, and put an end to its illegitimate use as a "proof text" for the doctrine of Eternal Torment - because any Bible scholar worth his salt k...

www.worthychristianforums.com

For whatever reason, you limited the way in which someone can understand Luke 16:19-31 to only two options, neither of which is how I interpret it. I don't believe it's right for you to think that you are the one who decides for everyone what the possible interpretations are for any given passage.

Of course, parables draw upon real experience - but you're wanting to make literal certain elements within the Rich Man and Lazarus that cannot and do not happen in real experience, as the above link demonstrates.

 

[Phoneman777]

Jerusalem will not rule over the Kings of the earth until the 7th Trumpet sounds. Did the 7th Trumpet sound in 95AD? You all place the events in the first century, that have not happened yet, because you think as preterist do that John was talking about the first century. The point of view was from when the Trumpets literally sound in the future.

Not that the Trumpets were sounded in the future, but pointed to events 2,000 years before they sounded.

Even if you don't think people literally hear them, why would any one say they won't sound.

Please do not gaslight me, sir, because I have zero patience for it.

I've already told you that while Jesuit Preterism claims all prophetic events happened in the 1st century, Protestant Historicism says these events began unfolding in the 1st century and continue to unfold alongside history from John's day until the Second Coming.

Jesuit Preterism says Jesus returned in glory in the 1st century - we Historicists know that's still future.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I would say that's circular reasoning. We can't substantiate doctrine on uninterpreted parables, yet many point to Luke 16 as "proof" that hell is burning right now, though 2 Peter 2:9 KJV clearly says the punishment of the wicked is future.

Luke 16:19-31 is not a parable. You clearly don't even know what a parable is if you think that is a parable. Name a parable that most would agree is a parable which uses the names of real people and real places in it like that passage does. You can't do it. Because that isn't how parables work.

You noticeably didn't answer my question about Matthew 25:31-46. Do you think that is a parable?

Revelation is a symbolic book, and this is figurative for the injustice done to martyrs crying out to God for Him to exact divine justice.

But, it symbolizes reality. Revelation 6:9-11 implies that people are conscious in heaven. It portrays people being able to communicate with the Lord in heaven. And why wouldn't they? Do you not believe that there is more to people than our bodies? Paul said to be absent from the body (to be physically dead) is to be present (spiritually) with the Lord (2 Cor 5:6-8).

That's because Elijah didn't die.

Yes, he did. He was not taken up to the third heaven as some think. He was taken up to the first or second heaven and then taken to a different place where he later died. If he was in heaven (the third heaven/paradise) then that would contradict what Jesus said here:

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Do you disagree with what Jesus said?

As for Moses, were Michael and Satan in dispute over who would get to stuff Moses' body like a game trophy or donate it to science? It should be clear to all the dispute was over God's intention to resurrect the body of Moses, with Satan likely accusing Moses to be as worthy of damnation as he is. Moses was able to appear with Elijah in the Mount because Michael (pre-incarnate Jesus) resurrected him.

Again, you are not taking all of scripture into account when coming to this conclusion. Since you believe that Moses has already been resurrected from the dead unto bodily immortality then how do you explain Jesus saying this:

Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Obviously, others like Lazarus and Jairus's daughter had been resurrected before that, so it shouldn't be hard to discern that the context of this verse is that Christ was the first to rise from the dead unto bodily immortality. Yet, you contradict this by saying that Moses already rose from the dead unto bodily immortality before Jesus did.

As I said, our doctrines are air tight and cannot be disproven.

That is how people who are brainwashed talk. Come out from Seventh Day Adventism, Phoneman777. I have poked holes in your supposed air tight doctrines and you won't admit it. My interpretations above that refute your supposed air tight doctrines are the real air tight doctrines that you should be believing instead of your leaky doctrines because they take ALL of scripture into account instead of taking scriptures in isolation and drawing conclusions from them without making sure that your conclusions don't contradict any other scripture.

There are 14 irresolvable contradictions that result from claiming the Rich Man and Lazarus proves consciousness in death, so feel free to try and resolve even one of them:

14 IRRESOLVABLE CONTRADICTIONS WHICH RESULT FROM A LITERAL RICH MAN AND LAZARUS

BY CORRECTLY CONCLUDING that the story of Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable, we maintain Scriptural harmony, discern a valuable lesson from its interpretation, and put an end to its illegitimate use as a "proof text" for the doctrine of Eternal Torment - because any Bible scholar worth his salt k...

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Of course, parables draw upon real experience - but you're wanting to make literal certain elements within the Rich Man and Lazarus that cannot and do not happen in real experience, as the above link demonstrates.

Your arrogance here is off the charts. You can't hope to avoid believing some false doctrine when you are so arrogant like this. You have an attitude that you can't possibly be wrong about anything. How can God teach you things when you have an attitude like that? It can't be done.

I don't have time to read through that right now, but if those are as "air tight" as your claims above this, then I shouldn't have much problem resolving at least one, if not all of those supposed contradictions.

 

[Brakelite]

I believe that the scope of Babylon goes even beyond Roman Catholicism. It is the mother of ALL harlots of which Catholicism is one. Buddhism is another. Islam is another. Hinduism is another. And so on. I believe all false religions, cults and philosophies of the world that oppose the one true God and all of the unbelievers who follows after those false entitities have Spiritual Babylon as their mother.

Romans 18:4 says "Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.". This is God's call for people to repent of following after the world and its anti-Christian beliefs and embrace the gospel and become part of God's family in the New Jerusalem instead.

It reminds me of this:

John 15:17 These things I command you, that ye love one another. 18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. 19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

So, "the world" in this context represents all of the things that oppose the one true God. All of the false religions and false belief systems of the world. This is how I view Mystery Babylon. We are not to be of those things, but instead we are spiritual citizens of the New Heavenly Jerusalem (Hebrews 12:22, Galatians 4:26).

Revelation 18:4 also reminds me of this:

2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

In Revelation 18:4 Jesus/God says "Come out from her, my people". In 2 Cor 6:17, Paul, inspired by God, says "come out from among them, and be ye separate". Come out from what? Spiritual Babylon and all it represents as the spiritual opposite of New Jerusalem. It represents literally all false belief systems of unbelievers that oppose the one true God.

Come out from among who? All those whose mother is Mystery Babylon instead of the New Heavenly Jerusalem. As Paul said, "be ye not unequally yoked with unbelievers. So, come out from among all unbelievers. Those who practice unrighteousness. Those who are in spiritual darkness. Those who follow after Belial, which I believe is another name for Satan (Belial means evil or wickedness so that name describes that character trait of Satan). Those who bow down to and worship idols instead of God.


So, you are equating the great city where our Lord was crucified with the earth then? Which would mean you're saying Babylon is the earth?


I thought you were just saying the earth is Babylon. I'm having a little trouble following what you're saying.


I'm sorry, but that was hard to follow. I don't think the identity of Babylon is as complicated as all that. Again, I see Mystery Babylon, the mother of all harlots, as being the spiritual opposite of New Heavenly Jerusalem, the mother of us all (all believers - Galatians 4:26). All believers are spiritual children and citizens of New Jerusalem and all unbelievers are spiritual children and citizens of Mystery Babylon.

I'm saying I agree with you regarding the global extent of Babylon, just as the false prophet leads a global movement into apostasy. But Babylon has a HQ. That's why I went a little into history. Yes, Babylon is a spiritual power, but it does have a human physical component, and it's head quarters is Rome.

 

[Timtofly]

Please do not gaslight me, sir, because I have zero patience for it.

I've already told you that while Jesuit Preterism claims all prophetic events happened in the 1st century, Protestant Historicism says these events began unfolding in the 1st century and continue to unfold alongside history from John's day until the Second Coming.

Jesuit Preterism says Jesus returned in glory in the 1st century - we Historicists know that's still future.

You are gaslighting yourself.

You said after the vision, the explanation was about the first century. That is the preterist thought system.

The five fallen is not a first century viewpoint, as that is the whole point of preterist thought, and is dead wrong.

Again, when the angel told John of the city that was "reigning over the kings of the Earth" he had already finished the chapter 17 revelation and had commenced explaining it to John - which means "is that great city" is present perfect tense, as is "reigneth over the kings of the Earth" which is also present perfect tense, both referring to Rome.

The Woman, the Beast, the Two Witnesses were to arrive on the scene later.

Jesuit Preterist, as you yourself pointed out, wanted the attention taken away from the point the Reformation was the end of the ten toes, so they claim that the five had already fallen at the time John wrote Revelation in the first century.

I am proving the point the 5th fallen kingdom was the Holy Roman Empire, that you call the ten toes or papal states.

So the 6th head or 6th kingdom has been current since the Reformation, but with a deadly wound as there is no one Empire in control of all other nations as is assumed was the point of the first 5 fallen empires. That is not futurism, but the historic view.

This explanation including modern day Jerusalem as being the city where Jesus was killed, is not jesuit futurism. Jerusalem will not be in control as the harlot until the 8th kingdom. Unless you can prove the 7th and 8th kingdoms are already fulfilled, they are future, not adding 2 empires prior to Babylon, to force the preterist view that five had already fallen when John gave the 7 letters to the 7 churches in the first century.

But the explanation states all religions will be stripped away by a panel of ten humans who have given their power and authority to Satan, and that is what is meant by the destruction of the harlot. The harlot being that Jerusalem is totally given over to all religions by that point.

Most religions on earth call for some relationship between them and a God. The point is that at the 8th kingdom, all will be deceived that Satan is the only God. There is no God for relationship with humanity in this perspective, making all religions null and void.

BTW: some Greeks and Romans knew who Satan was. He was part of the deal with the transfer of Pergamos from Greek authority to Roman authority (around 133BC). That is an actual historical transfer of power.

"And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges; I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth."

We know that is not where Satan's seat is today, nor much past the first century. Only the chapters written to the 7 churches can relate to first century events. Satan continued to deceive the world through the 4th and 5th kingdoms that he did not exist, but still maintained the connection with those in power and authority behind the scenes.

Those who reject that Jesus will be the future 7th Kingdom, and that Satan as one of the 7 heads, is the 8th kingdom, are deceived. Part of that deception is saying 5 had fallen in the first century, and pad the numbers with two additional kingdoms prior to Babylon.

You are still falling into that first century trap as well, saying that the explanation was about the first century. Jesuit Preterist want you to accept that was first century Rome. Not some future 8th empire of Satan himself.

 

[Phoneman777]

Luke 16:19-31 is not a parable. You clearly don't even know what a parable is if you think that is a parable.

A Biblical parable can contain things that cannot and do not happen in real experience, as in Jotham's parable of the trees or Abel's blood crying out from the ground.

Luke 16:19-31 KJV is most definitely a parable depicting things that do not happen in real experience.

Name a parable that most would agree is a parable which uses the names of real people and real places in it like that passage does. You can't do it. Because that isn't how parables work.

Demanding that the use of real names/places proves a story is literal is purely subjective hermeneutics.
Jotham's parable of the trees uses proper names of trees: Olive, Fig, and Cedar - is that story literal?
Jesus used the proper name "Lazarus" so that when Lazarus was resurrected and the Jews plotted to kill both him and Jesus, the people would know He spoke truth.

You noticeably didn't answer my question about Matthew 25:31-46. Do you think that is a parable?

Portions are. For instance, when Jesus said "on the right hand/on the left hand" He was illustrating a judgment proceeding to show the fates of the saved and sinners - He didn't mean for us to understand that He is judgement scene illustrates a court proceeding which Jesus uses to show the fate of those who are righteous and wicked. But, the division will not be "right/left" but "inside the city/outside the city" when Jesus is scene high above during the "white throne judgment".

Revelation 6:9-11 implies that people are conscious in heaven.

Genesis 2:7 KJV is crystal clear that a "Soul" comes into existence only as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life - which means at death when the Body returns dust and the Breath returns to God, the Soul cannot but cease to exist.

How can "disembodied souls under the altar" cry out without vocal cords? Blood is what's under the altar. Can Abel's red and white corpuscles cry out, too? It's referring to injustice crying out to God for divine retribution against the enemies of His people.

It portrays people being able to communicate with the Lord in heaven.

The dead don't praise God in death, nor do they go to heaven or hell - they go "down into silence" and await the one or the other of the two resurrections.

And why wouldn't they? Do you not believe that there is more to people than our bodies? Paul said to be absent from the body (to be physically dead) is to be present (spiritually) with the Lord (2 Cor 5:6-8).

Plenty of people want to be "absent from the church pew and to present at the Cracker Barrel" but does that preclude the drive from the one place to the other?

Neither does Paul's statement in verse 8 undo what he said a few verses before about the "intermediate state" between after our mortal body dissolves and before we put on our immortal bodies - the state of lying "naked" and "unclothed" without a body, in the grave, dead, awaiting the resurrection.

Paul was simply saying his preference was rather to skip lying in the grave and go on to be with Jesus.

Yes, he did. He was not taken up to the third heaven as some think. He was taken up to the first or second heaven and then taken to a different place where he later died. If he was in heaven (the third heaven/paradise) then that would contradict what Jesus said here:

He was taken up in vision - not bodily. Jesus was referring to a bodily ascension.

Again, you are not taking all of scripture into account when coming to this conclusion. Since you believe that Moses has already been resurrected from the dead unto bodily immortality then how do you explain Jesus saying this:

Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Plenty of OT people resurrected before Jesus was "the first that should rise".

It's referring to Jesus as the "firstfruits of the resurrection" meaning that prior resurrections were predicated on Jesus rising from the dead, which resurrections were made possible by God's divine foreknowledge that He would be raised.

Obviously, others like Lazarus and Jairus's daughter had been resurrected before that, so it shouldn't be hard to discern that the context of this verse is that Christ was the first to rise from the dead unto bodily immortality. Yet, you contradict this by saying that Moses already rose from the dead unto bodily immortality before Jesus did.

Are you not aware that people were resurrected in the OT before Jesus in the NT?

That is how people who are brainwashed talk. Come out from Seventh Day Adventism, Phoneman777. I have poked holes in your supposed air tight doctrines and you won't admit it.

I assure you that your limited knowledge prevents you from seeing the big picture.

The Bible is clear that the dead know nothing, feel nothing, say nothing, see nothing, hear nothing, devise nothing, praise nothing, are without wisdom, and have absolutely nothing to do with anything that is done under the sun.

My interpretations above that refute your supposed air tight doctrines are the real air tight doctrines that you should be believing instead of your leaky doctrines because they take ALL of scripture into account instead of taking scriptures in isolation and drawing conclusions from them without making sure that your conclusions don't contradict any other scripture.

Your interpretations are based in inconsistent interpretation and assignment of literalism to symbolism.

Your arrogance here is off the charts. You can't hope to avoid believing some false doctrine when you are so arrogant like this. You have an attitude that you can't possibly be wrong about anything. How can God teach you things when you have an attitude like that? It can't be done.

Is it arrogance for me to publicly announce to the world that I'm the father of my children when there are billions of other men on the planet.......or is it possible that it just might be a fact?

I don't have time to read through that right now, but if those are as "air tight" as your claims above this, then I shouldn't have much problem resolving at least one, if not all of those supposed contradictions.

And, that is why you don't understand the truth for why the Rich Man and Lazarus can't possibly be a literal story...perhaps you'll be the first to step up to the challenge and resolve the 14 irresolvable points.

 

[Phoneman777]

You are gaslighting yourself.

You said after the vision, the explanation was about the first century. That is the preterist thought system.

The five fallen is not a first century viewpoint, as that is the whole point of preterist thought, and is dead wrong.

Jesuit Preterist, as you yourself pointed out, wanted the attention taken away from the point the Reformation was the end of the ten toes, so they claim that the five had already fallen at the time John wrote Revelation in the first century.

I am proving the point the 5th fallen kingdom was the Holy Roman Empire, that you call the ten toes or papal states.

So the 6th head or 6th kingdom has been current since the Reformation, but with a deadly wound as there is no one Empire in control of all other nations as is assumed was the point of the first 5 fallen empires. That is not futurism, but the historic view.

This explanation including modern day Jerusalem as being the city where Jesus was killed, is not jesuit futurism. Jerusalem will not be in control as the harlot until the 8th kingdom. Unless you can prove the 7th and 8th kingdoms are already fulfilled, they are future, not adding 2 empires prior to Babylon, to force the preterist view that five had already fallen when John gave the 7 letters to the 7 churches in the first century.

But the explanation states all religions will be stripped away by a panel of ten humans who have given their power and authority to Satan, and that is what is meant by the destruction of the harlot. The harlot being that Jerusalem is totally given over to all religions by that point.

Most religions on earth call for some relationship between them and a God. The point is that at the 8th kingdom, all will be deceived that Satan is the only God. There is no God for relationship with humanity in this perspective, making all religions null and void.

BTW: some Greeks and Romans knew who Satan was. He was part of the deal with the transfer of Pergamos from Greek authority to Roman authority (around 133BC). That is an actual historical transfer of power.

"And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges; I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth."

We know that is not where Satan's seat is today, nor much past the first century. Only the chapters written to the 7 churches can relate to first century events. Satan continued to deceive the world through the 4th and 5th kingdoms that he did not exist, but still maintained the connection with those in power and authority behind the scenes.

Those who reject that Jesus will be the future 7th Kingdom, and that Satan as one of the 7 heads, is the 8th kingdom, are deceived. Part of that deception is saying 5 had fallen in the first century, and pad the numbers with two additional kingdoms prior to Babylon.

You are still falling into that first century trap as well, saying that the explanation was about the first century. Jesuit Preterist want you to accept that was first century Rome. Not some future 8th empire of Satan himself.

No, it is YOU who continues to gaslight. No matter how many times I tell you I'm a Protestant Historicist, you keep saying I'm a Preterist or preach Jesuit Preterism.

Protestant Historicism existed decades BEFORE Jesuit Preterism came on the scene, which anyone who climbs on here and presumes to talk eschatology should already know.

 

[Brakelite]

You said after the vision, the explanation was about the first century. That is the preterist thought system.

It is only preterist thought of theentire vision was assumed to be fulfilled in thefirst century. At no time did phoneman suggest such an idea. Please read carefully.
Historicism clings to the belief that prophecy began to be fulfilled from the time the prophecy was given, except in cases where particular time periods are specified.
For example. The 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel 9 began at a specific time, the going forth of the commandment from Artexerxes for the rebuilding of the city and temple. This commandment is given in Ezra and is dated at 457BC.
On the other hand, the visions of Daniel 2,7,8, and 11 begin from the time the first vision was given. That is, from the time and reign of Nebuchadnezzar in Babylon, the time of his dream of the statue. Daniel's prophecies and/visions are based on that sure foundation. As history unfolded, so also did the prophecy. That's historicism. Apocalyptic prophecies particularly as in Daniel and revelation, end at the second coming.
Your particular interpretation that Daniel 2 finished at the reformation makes no sense when taking into account the complete destruction of the 5 powers in the statue by the yet to come second coming of Christ.