Who, or what, is the dreaded bogey man of prophecy?

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tailgator

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He calls the whore of Revelation 17 "Babylon" (which Peter says is Rome) and plainly tell you she is "that great city which reigneth over the kings of the Earth" when at the time of John's writing, Jerusalem wasn't reigning over anyone - it was in ruins!

You know nothing about the core issues of Protestant Historicism, so it is no surprise that you can't see the truth.

You're essentially picking up a puzzle piece one at a time, looking at the Protestant Historicist picture on the box, and then claiming "nah, this doesn't look like anything".

You've got to put the pieces together before you can determine if the image that emerges is the same Protestant Historicist image on the box cover!
Peter never called the prostitute in revelation Babylon .Peter was dead before the book of revelation was written.

Rome does not reign over the kings of the earth because the two witnesses who have authority for 42 months are not in Rome.They are in Jerusalem which is attacked and burned by the nations who hate the prostitute.

Zech 14

14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.



You can't post anything about the nations attacking Rome because they all attack Jerusalem
The prostitute.

No one is going to attack Rome.
 
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Brakelite

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I've already told you.Im watching prophecy happen.
As of lately ,I've been watching the king of Babylon smite palestinia with his the rod.
That also is a sign which takes place before the founding of Zion.

Isaiah 14
29 Rejoice not thou, whole Palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent's root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent.

30 And the firstborn of the poor shall feed, and the needy shall lie down in safety: and I will kill thy root with famine, and he shall slay thy remnant.

31 Howl, O gate; cry, O city; thou, whole Palestina, art dissolved: for there shall come from the north a smoke, and none shall be alone in his appointed times.

32 What shall one then answer the messengers of the nation? That the Lord hath founded Zion, and the poor of his people shall trust in it.







The day of the Lord is coming.From the looks of things ,I'd say about 4 years and the Medes(Iran)will be ready to go to Armegeddon.







Isaiah 13
Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
Prophecy provides an internal and external mechanism to confirm the accuracy of God’s Word. Jesus said, “ ‘And now I have told you before it comes, that when it does come to pass, you may believe’ ” (John 14:29, NKJV; see also John 13:19). This presents a crucial question: How do we interpret prophecy correctly so that we know when the prophecy has, indeed, come to pass?

During the Reformation, the reformers followed the historicist method. This method is the same one Daniel and John used as the key for their own interpretation. The historicist method sees prophecy as a progressive and continuous fulfillment of history, starting in the past and ending with God’s eternal kingdom.

Once one realises how beautifully prophecy has already been fulfilled throughout history, it gives the Bible student tremendous encouragement and a great boost to his faith to trust the Lord that the rest of prophecy will be equally met with astounding fulfilment. It's a wonderful testimony to the power and wisdom of God, a testimony to the authenticity of the Bible, a testimony to the authenticity of Christianity.
How much better is it to have prophecy written in the blood of martyrs and lovers of Jesus across the centuries old pages of the confirmed historical record, rather than the hit and miss inconsistent and uncertain prognostications of the fortune tellers of modern Christianity?
 
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Brakelite

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But it is true that a person can metaphorically be a beast and this is exactly the case with the FP. Two beasts seen in Rev 13. One is a kingdom and one is a person.
And there you have pinpointed the very problem Christendom is having in fully understanding prophecy, and in so doing come to some very confused and sometimes silly conclusions. And what is it you have pin pointed? The inconsistency of interpreting! the symbols. You have 2 beasts in the one chapter, one following the other chronologically on the prophetic timeline, both exhibiting characteristics of government, authority, legislated religious fealty, and persecution tendencies. Surely the motivation for God to go into so much detail regarding the character, motive, and practice of these entities whoever they are, is to ensure we are fairly, accurately, and unmistakably warned concerning who they are so we do not make a mistake. It is inconceivable that God would mix up His metaphors to offer those He loves a means by which to be deceived. If God is anything at all, He's consistent. There really is no need to look for an individual, particularly when a present nation with a powerful religious component has this far met all the criteria required of it in order to be the perfect fit as we move into the final days of Earth's history.
I do intend to cover those criteria as we move through the thread on coming days.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Jerusalem is called Holy in Rev 11. The city is holy to God, but the people living there can be bad, corrupted etc.
Not earthly Jerusalem. That city ceased being holy the day that Jesus rendered its temple desolate on the day He died on the cross. Please learn how to interpret scripture with scripture.

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

There is only one holy city referenced in the book of Revelation and it is the new Jerusalem, not the old Jerusalem.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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The issue is too many people attempting to interpret Revelation without understanding Daniel. Their conclusions regarding Daniel means their conclusions regarding Revelation are all over the place, and why no two people who claim to be futurists are in agreement.
Not just that, but they also interpret it without understanding the rest of scripture as well. For example, Revelation 20 talks about Jesus reigning over His kingdom. What does the rest of scripture, especially the New Testament, teach about when Jesus began to reign? It clearly teaches that He began to reign after His resurrection (Matthew 28:16-18, Ephesians 1:19-23, Acts 2:29-36, Colossians 1:12-13, Revelation 1:5-6, etc.). That needs to be taken into account when interpreting Revelation 20, but many people don't do that.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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And there you have pinpointed the very problem Christendom is having in fully understanding prophecy, and in so doing come to some very confused and sometimes silly conclusions. And what is it you have pin pointed? The inconsistency of interpreting! the symbols.
Totally agree. How can someone think we can take it seriously when they are so clearly making scripture say what they want it to say? One prophet beast is a kingdom and the other is a man? What? Unbelievable. No, a prophetic beast is either always a kingdom or always a man. It can't be both. Otherwise, you can make scripture say whatever you want it to say in any given passage depending on whether you want the beast to be a kingdom or a man. Ugh! Why do people do this? It's so dishonest. A prophetic beast is a kingdom, as Daniel indicated. Period. It doesn't represent one thing here and another thing there. That's ridiculous.

Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
 
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tailgator

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Not just that, but they also interpret it without understanding the rest of scripture as well. For example, Revelation 20 talks about Jesus reigning over His kingdom. What does the rest of scripture, especially the New Testament, teach about when Jesus began to reign? It clearly teaches that He began to reign after His resurrection (Matthew 28:16-18, Ephesians 1:19-23, Acts 2:29-36, Colossians 1:12-13, Revelation 1:5-6, etc.). That needs to be taken into account when interpreting Revelation 20, but many people don't do that.
Jesus doesnt start reigning over his kingdom upon earth in revelation 20 untill after the seventh Trump in revelation 11.

15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”



This hasn't been fulfilled yet.
 
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tailgator

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Totally agree. How can someone think we can take it seriously when they are so clearly making scripture say what they want it to say? One prophet beast is a kingdom and the other is a man? What? Unbelievable. No, a prophetic beast is either always a kingdom or always a man. It can't be both. Otherwise, you can make scripture say whatever you want it to say in any given passage depending on whether you want the beast to be a kingdom or a man. Ugh! Why do people do this? It's so dishonest. A prophetic beast is a kingdom, as Daniel indicated. Period. It doesn't represent one thing here and another thing there. That's ridiculous.

Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
The second beast in revelation 13 is an army with two leaders.It is provided to the first beast by the king of the north in Daniel 11:31.
It is at that time that the christians In Israel are imprisoned and killed.It takes place 42 months before the coming of our Lord.

Revelation 13:10
Anyone who is destined for prison will be taken to prison. Anyone destined to die by the sword will die by the sword. This means that God’s holy people must endure persecution patiently and remain faithful.

=

Daniel 11:33
Wise leaders will give instruction to many, but these teachers will die by fire and sword, or they will be jailed and robbed




Just so you know,anyone can be imprisoned in Israel for any amount of time without being accused of any crime.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Jesus doesnt start reigning over his kingdom upon earth in revelation 20 untill after the seventh Trump in revelation 11.

15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”



This hasn't been fulfilled yet.
Yes, it's true that hasn't been fulfilled yet, but that is not referring to Christ's kingdom. He reigns over His kingdom that the Father gave Him authority over now (Matthew 28:16-18, Eph 1:19-23, Acts 2:29-36, Col 1:12-13, Rev 1:5-6, etc.).

Notice there in Revelation 11:15 that it mentions "the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah". So, it's talking about the kingdom of God the Father and His Son. Currently, Jesus reigns over the kingdom (Ephesians 1:19-23), but at His future coming at the last trumpet (same as the last of the seven trumpets) He will deliver the kingdom to the Father and then it will be "the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah".

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
 

tailgator

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Yes, it's true that hasn't been fulfilled yet, but that is not referring to Christ's kingdom. He reigns over His kingdom that the Father gave Him authority over now (Matthew 28:16-18, Eph 1:19-23, Acts 2:29-36, Col 1:12-13, Rev 1:5-6, etc.).

Notice there in Revelation 11:15 that it mentions "the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah". So, it's talking about the kingdom of God the Father and His Son. Currently, Jesus reigns over the kingdom (Ephesians 1:19-23), but at His future coming at the last trumpet (same as the last of the seven trumpets) He will deliver the kingdom to the Father and then it will be "the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah".

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
Revelation 20 is the kingdom upon earth which Christ recieves at the seventh Trump.

Them who are resurected at his coming who did not worship the beast or it's image nor receive it's mark shall reign with him in that kingdom.
The kingdom is in the promised land.The land of Israel.

Revelation 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Revelation 20 is the kingdom upon earth which Christ recieves at the seventh Trump.
Can you please address what I said in my post? Not addressing it gives the impression that you have nothing to refute what I said. Just making a claim like this without backing it up and showing what you're saying using scripture does not address what I said in my post.
 

tailgator

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Can you please address what I said in my post? Not addressing it gives the impression that you have nothing to refute what I said. Just making a claim like this without backing it up and showing what you're saying using scripture does not address what I said in my post.
We were talking about revelation 20.

So I quoted revelation 20 and commented on revelation 20.


Were you trying to change the subject to something else?
 

ewq1938

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There really is no need to look for an individual

And that is exactly what that individual wants people to do, not look for him. It's the easiest way to deceive people because if they don't believe in an antichrist individual then they won't ever identify one and that is dangerous. Pretrib also is not looking for him. Full Preterism isn't looking for him. Amills aren't looking for him. Most end times theological positions are not looking for him. It's what they all have in common even if they are completely opposed to each other. Only Post-trib/ Premill are being watchmen for the antichrist because they know he comes as a false god, a false Jesus.
 

ewq1938

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The second beast in revelation 13 is an army with two leaders.

The second beast is also called the false prophet, not false prophets plural. It's one person. The army he rules over is part of the first beast which itself is a global empire composed of ten kingdoms.

The one person is described as having two little horns of a lambkin. These are not two separate kings of IMO indicates that this person will be a king twice. Possibly a peaceful king and later becoming a violent king or simply the 7th and 8th kings of Rev 17 where 8 consecutive kings are mentioned, 6 fallen by John's time, one was in process of falling and the last two yet to be revealed.
 

tailgator

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The second beast is also called the false prophet, not false prophets plural. It's one person. The army he rules over is part of the first beast which itself is a global empire composed of ten kingdoms.

The one person is described as having two little horns of a lambkin. These are not two separate kings of IMO indicates that this person will be a king twice. Possibly a peaceful king and later becoming a violent king or simply the 7th and 8th kings of Rev 17 where 8 consecutive kings are mentioned, 6 fallen by John's time, one was in process of falling and the last two yet to be revealed.
The two horns are not kings at all.
They are two witnesses .

They have power to continue 42 months.Juat like the first beast.

Revelation 13
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.


Revelation

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.



No one said they were good witnesses.
 

Brakelite

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Peter never called the prostitute in revelation Babylon .Peter was dead before the book of revelation was written.
But he did call Rome Babylon.
KJV 1 Peter 5:13
13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.
(Mark was the writer of the gospel. He went to Rome with Timothy toward the end of Paul's imprisonment and life.)
KJV 2 Timothy 4:11
11 Only Luke is with me. Take Mark, and bring him with thee: for he is profitable to me for the ministry.
 

Brakelite

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And that is exactly what that individual wants people to do, not look for him.
It's exactly what the papacy is doing and had done since the 1600s when 2 Jesuits invented preterism and futurism to counter the accusing fingers of the reformation in identifying the papacy as the Antichrist, the first beast. Both false hermeneutics hide papal Rome from prophecy. It creates the gap in prophecy between Antiochus and the imaginary future bogey man as if God had forgotten the church existed. Both attempt to hide the fact that the popes, one and all, have been sitting in the temple of God, the church, and collectively declared themselves authorities greater than God by
A. Claiming they power to forgive sin, and
B. Claiming the power to change God's laws.
In those 2 things they commit blasphemy, they in effect declare themselves gods, and fulfil
KJV 2 Thessalonians 2:4
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Such is the practise of Catholicism. It isn't only the above. They also claim the authority to murder heretics, and have done so for over 1000 years. Also, by claiming to have the sole authority to interpret scripture, they remove the influence, or, and ministry of the holy Spirit from the lives of men. And by celebrating every day the mass, which in their minds is a continuation of the sacrifice of Christ, they deny Christ by placing themselves in his position as Redeemer. Sand finally, by taking to themselves the office of Priest, Prophet, and King, the popes, in the name of their institution, replace Christ Himself from His sole position as Mediator between God and man, which is literally Antichrist.
By claiming the prerogatives of God, they claim to be God.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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We were talking about revelation 20.

So I quoted revelation 20 and commented on revelation 20.


Were you trying to change the subject to something else?
Are you being purposely dishonest here? You quoted Revelation 11:15 and commented on it. I responded to show what it really means. And then you didn't respond directly to anything I said.
 

Phoneman777

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Jerusalem reigns over the kings of the earth
Jerusalem reigned over nothing at the time of the Revelation 17 vision.
after the king of the north gives Israel his armed forces and abolishes the daily sacrifice.
Did I now show you that "sacrifice" is not in the original Hebrew? So, why do you keep bringing it up?
You act as though the two witnesses in Jerusalem have no power over those nations that attack Jerusalem and kill them .
The Two Witnesses are "the word of God" according to Zechariah 4:2-6 KJV - not the literal "Moses and Elijah" but the symbolic "Moses and Elijah" aka "Moses and the prophets" aka "the Law and the prophets" aka "the Law and the Testimony".

Understand? All these references are symbolic of the Old Testament and the New Testament: the Two Witnesses of Bible prophecy.
That is the day Babylon falls .
I got news for you, friend. Babylon fell long ago and Isaiah 13 says it ain't never gonna be rebuilt.

Once again, you Jesuit Futurists are trying to assign literal meaning to the symbolic elements of the most symbolic book in the Bible.
 
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tailgator

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Are you being purposely dishonest here? You quoted Revelation 11:15 and commented on it. I responded to show what it really means. And then you didn't respond directly to anything I said.
Revelation 11:15 is about the kingdom upon earth becoming Christs.

That has not happened yet.

As of today,Benjamin netanyahu reigns .The beast.