Who, or what, is the dreaded bogey man of prophecy?

[Stumpmaster]

Throughout prophecy beasts depicted empires or nations. The heads of the beast are previous governments already mentioned in Daniel, and includes the papal church which had also fallen when viewed from the time of the judgement. Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Pagan Rome, followed by papal Rome, all fallen. The one that is, is papal Rome living in a state of critical illness as a result of the wound indicted by France in 1798. That wound is now being healed, and we are witnessing in our life time the rise of the 8th, but which is on fact one of the 7. A restored papacy, in union with the kings and queens and rulers of this present age, a union of an adjustable church and world governments. Who can fail to see this taking place before our very eyes.

Graphic Representation Of The Eighth Oppressive Empire Of The Beast From The Sea​

 

[Stumpmaster]

It's not impossible at all if Satan can be himself as well as play a role similar to Arnold Schwarzenegger can also be the terminator.

Well there is a Sentient Android described here:

Rev 13:14-15 (14) And he deceives those who dwell on the earth—by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. (15) He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

 

[ewq1938]

Well there is a Sentient Android described here:

Rev 13:14-15 (14) And he deceives those who dwell on the earth—by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. (15) He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

I see nothing about it being an Android of that it is sentient. Humans made it on order of the beast.

 

[Stumpmaster]

I see nothing about it being an Android of that it is sentient. Humans made it on order of the beast.

My group all agree that the eventual creation of an SA is in view. It has the ability to breath and speak, and make decisions that affect humans. Sorry you can't join my group unless you agree with us about this.

 

[ewq1938]

My group all agree that the eventual creation of an SA is in view. It has the ability to breath and speak, and make decisions that affect humans. Sorry you can't join my group unless you agree with us about this.

Nothing in the text about breathing.

Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

 

[Brakelite]

Graphic Representation Of The Eighth Oppressive Empire Of The Beast From The SeaView attachment 47190​

That is a very viable perspective. It depends where you place John at the time of the vision. If John is standing during the time of pagan Rome, then certainly, the 5 fallen and one is scenario is met if you start with Egypt and Assyria, both of whom were, like the others, enemies to God's people. However, if you place John at the time of where he is being transported in vision, that is in revelation 17 at the time of the judgement of the great whore, then the count from Babylon is equally valid. Personally, I prefer the second option, as it covers the same territory as Daniel in his visions, it harmonizes with the composite model of the sea beast, and it also gives more information regarding the fall of the apostate church in Rome, and it's eventual recovery.

My group all agree that the eventual creation of an SA is in view. It has the ability to breath and speak, and make decisions that affect humans. Sorry you can't join my group unless you agree with us about this.

As for the image of the beast, I will discuss that later, but would emphasize the need to remain consistent in our interpretations... Beasts are and will always remain political empires or nations. That is why I am so opposed to the idea of the beast being considered an individual. It isn't. And we need to be careful concerning the image. It's an image to a union of church and state as per original interpretation of first beast of Revelation 13 and the latter manifestation with the whore riding the political power. The image must also be such a union. A church riding on the back of government power and legislated assembly. Religion by force and compulsion...just as the scriptures indicate...and he shall cause all to receive etc etc. But more on that later.

 

[Stumpmaster]

That is why I am so opposed to the idea of the beast being considered an individual.

So am I with regard to the first beast.

From the Sea of Sinful Humanity comes:

BEAST 1 = Blasphemous Empire Actualising Satanic Tyranny​

From the Earth of Evil Vanity comes:

BEAST 2 = Blasphemous Emperor Actualising Satanic Tyranny​

 

[Stumpmaster]

Nothing in the text about breathing.

Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Rev 13:15 NKJV He was granted power to give breath (Gr. pneuma) to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

G4151
πνεῦμα
pneuma
pnyoo'-mah
From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.
Total KJV occurrences: 385

Let me know if you want to join my Sentient Android Group @ewq1938

 

[quietthinker]

That is a very viable perspective. It depends where you place John at the time of the vision. If John is standing during the time of pagan Rome, then certainly, the 5 fallen and one is scenario is met if you start with Egypt and Assyria, both of whom were, like the others, enemies to God's people. However, if you place John at the time of where he is being transported in vision, that is in revelation 17 at the time of the judgement of the great whore, then the count from Babylon is equally valid. Personally, I prefer the second option, as it covers the same territory as Daniel in his visions, it harmonizes with the composite model of the sea beast, and it also gives more information regarding the fall of the apostate church in Rome, and it's eventual recovery.

As for the image of the beast, I will discuss that later, but would emphasize the need to remain consistent in our interpretations... Beasts are and will always remain political empires or nations. That is why I am so opposed to the idea of the beast being considered an individual. It isn't. And we need to be careful concerning the image. It's an image to a union of church and state as per original interpretation of first beast of Revelation 13 and the latter manifestation with the whore riding the political power. The image must also be such a union. A church riding on the back of government power and legislated assembly. Religion by force and compulsion...just as the scriptures indicate...and he shall cause all to receive etc etc. But more on that later.

If a Beast represents oppressive systems (nations, individuals) then an Image to the Beast must likewise be oppressive like the Beast but under a different 'banner'. I would suggest that 'banner' is one that looks harmless or hidden yet becomes the force which oppresses God's people.

 

[Stumpmaster]

If a Beast represents oppressive systems (nations, individuals) then an Image to the Beast must likewise be oppressive like the Beast but under a different 'banner'. I would suggest that 'banner' is one that looks harmless or hidden yet becomes the force which oppresses God's people.

Yeah, when there's a satanically empowered false prophet driving world affairs with an infrastructure that accommodates the normalising of humanism on the one horn, and an hierarchy of religious narcissism on the other, anyone dissenting is in trouble with a capital T.

​

 

[ewq1938]

Rev 13:15 NKJV He was granted power to give breath (Gr. pneuma) to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

G4151
πνεῦμα
pneuma
pnyoo'-mah
From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.
Total KJV occurrences: 385

It has many meanings and uses but in that verse the best concept is "life" to this image humans made. It likely does not imply breathing/lungs.

Let me know if you want to join my Sentient Android Group @ewq1938

You said i can't join unless I agree with the image being a sentient android. I don't agree. Why invite me anyways? If I did join, i would constantly oppose the very idea because it is not what the image of the beast is and we already have sentient androids that are AI powered and they aren't the commanded to be built image of the beast.

 

[Stumpmaster]

It has many meanings and uses but in that verse the best concept is "life" to this image humans made. It likely does not imply breathing/lungs.

Life as in sentience. Not a clockwork automaton.

 

[Brakelite]

Sure and this is the most likely correct but the verse cited showing the dragon and beast and FP all together doesn't disprove the idea of satan also being the antichrist/beast. It's not impossible at all if Satan can be himself as well as play a role similar to Arnold Schwarzenegger can also be the terminator.

There is a counter to this as I reminded everyone in post 10. We need to be consistent in our interpretations, and fully expect that God intended the symbols to be interpreted consistently. The angel Gabriel told Daniel what the beasts in Daniel 7 represented. They were empires. The horns were various nations that occupied the former territory of the empire. The little horn came up later, and developed over the centuries into a beast in its own right, inheriting the character, traditions, and attributes of those empires that had previously been. Such was the case of the papacy. Nowhere is there a suggestion in prophecy or a directive from the Lord that beasts are to be understood as being individuals. A line of successive individuals maybe, for example. Greece was the 3rd beast, the 4 headed leopard with wings. Only one overall King ruled Greece in context with the prophetic timeline, and that was Alexander. When he died however, that wasn't the end of Greece in the prophecy. His 4 generals ended up dividing the territory between them, indicated by the 4 heads. Greece didn't end until the 4th beast came up, pagan Rome.

 

[Brakelite]

Jesus said "when you see these things"
Not "look to the past".

How can you see them except they be in the past?

 

[quietthinker]

There is a counter to this as I reminded everyone in post 10. We need to be consistent in our interpretations, and fully expect that God intended the symbols to be interpreted consistently. The angel Gabriel told Daniel what the beasts in Daniel 7 represented. They were empires. The horns were various nations that occupied the former territory of the empire. The little horn came up later, and developed over the centuries into a beast in its own right, inheriting the character, traditions, and attributes of those empires that had previously been. Such was the case of the papacy. Nowhere is there a suggestion in prophecy or a directive from the Lord that beasts are to be understood as being individuals. A line of successive individuals maybe, for example. Greece was the 3rd beast, the 4 headed leopard with wings. Only one overall King ruled Greece in context with the prophetic timeline, and that was Alexander. When he died however, that wasn't the end of Greece in the prophecy. His 4 generals ended up dividing the territory between them, indicated by the 4 heads. Greece didn't end until the 4th beast came up, pagan Rome.

While I agree with you Brakelite, my reference to the beasts being nations/ individual has taken it's que from...

Daniel 2:38
'in your hands he has placed all mankind and the beasts of the field and the birds in the sky. Wherever they live, he has made you ruler over them all. You are that head of gold.'

 

[Brakelite]

While I agree with you Brakelite, my reference to the beasts being nations/ individual has taken it's que from...

Daniel 2:38
'in your hands he has placed all mankind and the beasts of the field and the birds in the sky. Wherever they live, he has made you ruler over them all. You are that head of gold.'

Yeah, I get that. I guess that while an individual is in charge, he's the man, or the beast, or woman, as the case may be. I suppose in that sense if one was to believe the papacy is the Antichrist, it is reasonable to assume that whatever Pope is in charge, he's the Antichrist..."you are that head of gold, purple and scarlet".

 

[tailgator]

How can you see them except they be in the past?

I've already told you.Im watching prophecy happen.
As of lately ,I've been watching the king of Babylon smite palestinia with his the rod.
That also is a sign which takes place before the founding of Zion.

Isaiah 14
29 Rejoice not thou, whole Palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent's root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent.

30 And the firstborn of the poor shall feed, and the needy shall lie down in safety: and I will kill thy root with famine, and he shall slay thy remnant.

31 Howl, O gate; cry, O city; thou, whole Palestina, art dissolved: for there shall come from the north a smoke, and none shall be alone in his appointed times.

32 What shall one then answer the messengers of the nation? That the Lord hath founded Zion, and the poor of his people shall trust in it.







The day of the Lord is coming.From the looks of things ,I'd say about 4 years and the Medes(Iran)will be ready to go to Armegeddon.







Isaiah 13
Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

 

[Phoneman777]

I agree and have presented that same rationale myself.

Regarding the Antichirst person, he goes through 5 stages on the path to his destruction.

1. as the little horn person - leader over a group of 10 EU leaders.
2. as the prince who shall come - into the middle east following the Gog/Magog event
3. as the Antichrist - anointed the King of Israel, thought-to-be messiah
4. as the reveled man of sin -claiming to have achieved God-hood. End of his time as the King of Israel.
5. as the beast-king - dictator of the EU.

the Antichrist:
The common name for the end times person of evil. He begins as the little horn person > then becomes the prince who shall come > then becomes the Antichrist > then becomes the revealed man of sin > then becomes the beast-king.

The prophetic timeline only allows antichrist to arise directly after the fall of the Roman empire.

Does not the Little Horn arise among the Ten Horns that stood up in the very place where the Roman empire fell, and uproot "three of the first horns"?

Did not the papacy arise among those Ten and uproot three, the Vandal, Heruli, and Ostrogoths?

Did not the ECFs say the Roman empire would "restrain" the rise of the "Man of Sin" until Rome fell?

There's no Biblical precedent for placing a "gap" on the prophetic timeline for any Numerically Specific Time Prophecy, including the 70 Weeks.

Every time Scripture says a future event is to last for a specific amounto of time, it never goes beyond that: 120 years of Noah's preaching, Israel's 400 years in Egypt, Israel's 40 years in the desert, Elijah's 3 1/2 year famine, Israel's 70 years in Babylon, etc. No gaps, friend.

 

[Zao is life]

There is conjecture among those interested in prophecy, that the final Antichrist is Satan himself. Most would be aware that the Antichrist has a few aliases. "Man of sin" (2 Thess. 2:3); "little horn" (Daniel 7:24,25); the second phase of the little horn of (Daniel 8:10); King of the North (Daniel 11:40-45); the sea beast (Revel. 13:1-10).
However, apart from the scriptures that actually identify the Antichrist as above, there is one in particular that straight out denies the possibility of the Antichrist being Satan. That is
KJV Revelation 16:13
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
The Dragon and the beast cannot be the same entity.

Satan, right up to the point when he in desperation impersonates Christ Himself to all the world, uses agents. Satan in prophecy is the dragon. (Revel.12:9; 20:2; and elsewhere throughout Revelation, where his agents on the earth reflect the attributes and appearance of the dragon. Prime example: Revelation 12 describes the dragon standing before the woman to devour her child. The literal fulfillment was Herod attempting to destroy Jesus. How was that representative of the dragon? Herod was a Roman puppet. He was pagan Rome's representative and agent of Satan to destroy the Messiah.

Note and compare the following...
KJV Daniel 7:7, 19-20, 23-24
7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns....
19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows....
23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces,
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

Compare with...
KJV Revelation 12:3-4, 13, 16-17
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born....
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child....
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

And...
KJV Revelation 13:1-8
1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The similarities resolve all doubt. The Dragon cannot be the little horn, or the beast. But they are most certainly created after his own image. These persecuting, murderous, lying, destructive enemies of Christ and His people, owe their power, their authority, their throne, their very being, to the dragon, Satan, who created them for the very purpose of destroying God's people in order to hurt the one he truly despises, Jesus Christ.

While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. -- John 17:12

And after the sop Satan entered into him. -- John 17:27

That day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition -- 2 Thessalonians 2:3

And the dragon gave the beast his power, and his seat, and great authority. -- Revelation 13:2.

Satan is not the antichrist. The dragon is not the beast.

And after the sop Satan entered into him. -- John 17:27.

There are only two "sons of perdition" in the New Testament. The first is the type of the last.

There is also only one "little horn" in the Bible. He was the type of the last Antichrist.

The prophecy preachers masquerading as experts do not understand that Antiochus IV Epiphanes was a figure of the Antichrist. The type of the last. So prophetic statements that applied to Antiochus IV get conflated by today's prophecy preachers masquerading as experts, with the Antichrist.

As a result the preachers do not understand that the beast "that was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the abyss, and go into perdition" (Revelation 17:8) is the 4th beast of Daniel that was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the abyss, and go into perdition, i.e the little horn who did not fulfill the final part of the prophecy regarding his kingdom being handed to the saints of the Most High and the resurrection from the dead.

Not the same man but the antitype of the type. The kingdom is that which was formerly Babylonian, Persian and Greek. Alexander the Great's kingdom incorporated both of the first two. The 4th kingdom succeeded that of Alexander the Great, and was Greek. It was the northern kingdom of Seleucia, which in competition with Egypt in the South, rose as one of the two most powerful kingdoms that succeeded Alexander the Great following the wars of the Diadoche, which produced first four kingdoms out of which Seleucia (which Antiochus IV eventually sprang from) and Egypt became the most powerful. THESE are the kingdoms of the North and of the South in Daniel's prophecy, and Antiochus IV "Epiphanes" was the little horn who uprooted 3 kings.

No uprooting of 3 kings in the Revelation, and there is a reason why Revelation 13:2 quotes it in the reverse order to Daniel 7: the final kingdom is mirrors the first three. It has nothing to do with Rome. The two legs of iron were the two most powerful kingdoms that succeeded the 3rd beast of Daniel - Egypt (king of the South) and Seleuicia (king of the North).

10 kings. The little horn pulled 3 of the legitimate heirs to the throne out from their roots in his day. The Revelation's beast does not have any of the 10 being pulled up by the roots - all ten give their power and authority to the beast.

Christians ought to know where the holy place is*

* A lot of different and conflicting teaching in the churches and beliefs among Christians exists about the abomination of desolation, ...

zaoislife.blogspot.com

All the SDA prophecy prophecy preachers masquerading as experts disagree and have their own Roman kings as the beast. Many others partly follow SDA eschatology without even knowing it.

 

[tailgator]

The prophetic timeline only allows antichrist to arise directly after the fall of the Roman empire.

Does not the Little Horn arise among the Ten Horns that stood up in the very place where the Roman empire fell, and uproot "three of the first horns"?

Did not the papacy arise among those Ten and uproot three, the Vandal, Heruli, and Ostrogoths?

Did not the ECFs say the Roman empire would "restrain" the rise of the "Man of Sin" until Rome fell?

There's no Biblical precedent for placing a "gap" on the prophetic timeline for any Numerically Specific Time Prophecy, including the 70 Weeks.

Every time Scripture says a future event is to last for a specific amounto of time, it never goes beyond that: 120 years of Noah's preaching, Israel's 400 years in Egypt, Israel's 40 years in the desert, Elijah's 3 1/2 year famine, Israel's 70 years in Babylon, etc. No gaps, friend.

The seven heads on where the prostitute sits are the seven mountains of Jerusalem.Not Rome.
The three horns the little horn subdued were the kings of Egypt,Syria and Jordan.
This part of the prophecy was fulfilled in 1967 when the little horn took Jerusalem .


Your focusing on the wrong part of her world.
Keep it n mind,Jesus never said anything bad about Rome in the gospel when prophecyjng .He upbraided the cities of Israel and condemned Israels leaders.You are ignoring everything Jesus said about the beast in the gospel.Jesus was not wrong in condemning Jerusalem.


Mathew 23:35
That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.


Revelation 18:24
And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.



Im not going to keep arguing about it though.You can believe Jesus or you can ignore him.That is entirely up to you.