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Johann

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And....the kingdom of God is AMONG you Jesus said to the Pharisees. The kingdom of God is not found in people. It is in a spiritual realm. Seek first the kingdom...








Incorrect-and who were the recipients?





2) "For, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." (idou gar he basileia tou theou entos humon estin) "For behold or take note, the kingdom of God (specifically called the "kingdom of heaven", the church) is (exists already) within you, or within your midst," the midst of the Jewish Pharisees or among them, Luk_17:20. For He had already called and chosen His church, His bride, and begun His house, Joh_15:16; Joh_15:27; Mat_16:18; 1Ti_3:15; Heb_3:6.

Luk 17:21 Nor οὐδὲ will [people] say, ἐροῦσιν ‘Look, ‘Ἰδοὺ here [it is],’ ὧδε or ἤ ‘There [it is].’ ‘Ἐκεῖ· For γὰρ you see, ἰδοὺ the ἡ kingdom βασιλεία - τοῦ of God Θεοῦ is ἐστιν.” in your ὑμῶν midst.” ἐντὸς

Luk 17:21 nor will they say, Hinei, here it is, or There it is, for hinei, the Malchut Hashem is within you.

Luk 17:21 Nor shall they say, Behold, here, or, Behold, there. For behold, the kingdom of God [within you is].
Within you (entos humōn). This is the obvious, and, as I think, the necessary meaning of entos. The examples cited of the use of entos in Xenophon and Plato where entos means “among” do not bear that out when investigated. Field (Ot. Norv.) “contends that there is no clear instance of entos in the sense of among” (Bruce), and rightly so. What Jesus says to the Pharisees is that they, as others, are to look for the kingdom of God within themselves, not in outward displays and supernatural manifestations. It is not a localized display “Here” or “There.” It is in this sense that in Luk_11:20 Jesus spoke of the kingdom of God as “come upon you” (ephthasen eph' humās), speaking to Pharisees. The only other instance of entos in the N.T. (Mat_23:26) necessarily means “within” (“the inside of the cup”). There is, beside, the use of entos meaning “within” in the Oxyrhynchus Papyrus saying of Jesus of the Third Century (Deissmann, Light from the Ancient East, p. 426) which is interesting: “The kingdom of heaven is within you” (entos humōn as here in Luk_17:21).
RWP


Bible literalists believe in a physical earthly Davidic kingdom come to Israel.

One passage used against the literal interpretation of the physical kingdom is Luke 17:20-21.

“The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.” – Luke 17:20-21

Read out of context, Jesus might be portrayed as a gray-haired Obi-Wan that comes to reinterpret a thousand years of prophecy for the naïve Bible literalists.

Read in context, it becomes clear that it is not a threat to what the disciples believed about the coming of a literal kingdom to earth. In fact, Jesus affirms how they will see the Son of Man coming.

Who is the audience?

A question oft ignored when studying Jesus’ teachings is “who is the audience?”

Those familiar with rightly dividing the scripture know it is the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Rom 15:8, John 1:11). Jesus came to minister to the circumcision not the Gentiles nor the mystery church which was still kept secret (Rom 16:25; Eph 3:6).

More specifically, in Luke 17:20-21 Jesus is speaking to unbelieving Israel, not the believing remnant.

This is important for understanding why Jesus said the kingdom cometh not with observation, because unbelieving Israel rejected their King. They did not see it.

Not With Observation

Throughout his ministry to Israel, Jesus explained that they would not see the kingdom of God without believing in the Son of God.

Consider, another passage where Jesus is speaking to an unbelieving master in Israel, Nicodemus.

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” – John 3:3
Observing the kingdom of God required Israel to be born again. Unbelieving Pharisees surely would not see the kingdom of God, but be judged.

After telling the unbelieving Pharisees that the kingdom cometh not with observation, he turns to his faithful disciples and tells them how to observe his coming which would be like lightning (Luke 17:24).

“For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.” – Luke 17:24
They would not see the Messiah for a time, but all will see the Son of Man in his day as lightning. To believers it would be their redemption and kingdom come, for the unbelievers it would be judgment.

The Kingdom Within You

In Luke 17:21 Jesus tells the unbelieving Phariseees that the kingdom of God is within you.

Spiritualizers of the kingdom argue that this is proof that the kingdom is inside all of us like the force, and is not to be described literally as it appeared in Israel’s prophecies.

However, we cannot forget who is the audience. Jesus is not talking to believers, but unbelievers that would not see the kingdom. The kingdom of God is not in these faithless Pharisees in any sense.

“But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:” – John 12:37
In Luke 17 immediately before this kingdom question, Jesus healed the lepers. These unbelievers rejected these miracles as proof he was the King, and “demanded” Jesus answer their question so as to trap, mock, and catch him in lies.

The events in Luke 17 are similar to when Jesus healed the blind and dumb in Matt 12:22. The Pharisees denied the miracles and said Jesus had a devil.

Jesus’ response: if you believe who I am, the kingdom of God is come unto you.

“But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.” – Matt 12:28
Another similar circumstance was when Jesus sent the seventy disciples to heal the sick. He told them to proclaim “the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you” (Luke 10:9).

If they rejected their miracles by power of God they were to say:

“Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.” – Luke 10:11
In Luke 17:21 Jesus was not revealing hidden truth about the kingdom being spiritual and not physical, especially to these spiritually blind faithless Pharisees. He answered their demand exactly the right way.

The way he always had to unbelievers, with the truth that they will not see the kingdom unless they first believe in Him.

Jesus was within Israel, but now he is gone. He will return with observation bringing his kingdom to those who believe (Matt 24:30; Luke 21:28).

Conclusion

While Jesus told his disciples he must leave, he was at that time still with them and all the nation.

The unbelieving Pharisees did not believe Jesus to be the Son of God nor the prophesied Son of Man in Daniel, even while he was still with them doing miracles.

For these Pharisees to demand when the kingdom would come is tantamount to a blind man demanding during a beautiful sunrise when the sun would come up.

The Son of God had come to Israel, and they did not believe.

The kingdom cometh not with observation to these Pharisees because they reject the very one who will bring it. The one standing with them, doing miracles in their midst, was the Son of Man preaching the kingdom come.

Luke 17:20-21 is much clearer when we rightly divide Jesus’ audience.








You are not rightly dividing the Scriptures @Episkopos.
 

Eternally Grateful

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Mostly I was clarifying that it wasn’t non believers he often referred to as such. But the religious dictators. Like the Pharisees. Often bringing attention to how they glorified themselves. That’s all. I wasn’t trying to point at any in particular.
were the pharisees not non believers? who thought they were believers (in God) because of their righteousness?
 
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Eternally Grateful

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LOL I affirm that the foundation is found in Christ. The foundation is Jesus Christ. It's not in people as you suggest. Otherwise it is the Buddhist notion of finding the truth within yourself...having spiritual experiences with yourself. No, the foundation is Christ. The location of our building is in heaven not in us. We are to store treasure in heaven...not within you. So as far off as it is possible to be off...so you espouse error.

Why do you need affirmation? Do you want to be congratulated for being a believer? When God accepts our sacrifice, will we not be translated to abide with Christ? Why speculate about anything based on self-interest?

And....the kingdom of God is AMONG you Jesus said to the Pharisees. The kingdom of God is not found in people. It is in a spiritual realm. Seek first the kingdom...seek first yourself? :rolleyes:
why would you accuse her falsely? Why would you even hint that she said she needed affirmation. This is you saying this not here. Just another deflect.

And I see your puppet @faithfulness is right their to love every word that comes out of your mouth. Why would he/she think this either? Because you think it?
 

Lizbeth

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LOL I affirm that the foundation is found in Christ. The foundation is Jesus Christ. It's not in people as you suggest. Otherwise it is the Buddhist notion of finding the truth within yourself...having spiritual experiences with yourself. No, the foundation is Christ. The location of our building is in heaven not in us. We are to store treasure in heaven...not within you. So as far off as it is possible to be off...so you espouse error.

Why do you need affirmation? Do you want to be congratulated for being a believer? When God accepts our sacrifice, will we not be translated to abide with Christ? Why speculate about anything based on self-interest?

And....the kingdom of God is AMONG you Jesus said to the Pharisees. The kingdom of God is not found in people. It is in a spiritual realm. Seek first the kingdom...seek first yourself? :rolleyes:
We see this differently. Heaven is a realm....a spiritual realm. And it is in the child of God through Christ in us, just as the child of God is also seated in heavenly places because we are in Christ who is seated 'there'. If He is in us we are in Him....."remain in me and I will remain in you." God and heavenly realm is not limited/bound by time or space...the kingdom is not "lo here it is or lo there". We have a spirit that has come alive through the Spirit of Christ....our spirit exists in the spiritual (heavenly) realm.

I wonder if maybe you are sometimes in spirit and sometimes not, with different things. Understanding needs to be in spirit and also trying to explain spiritual things in human language is difficult without being in spirit.
 
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VictoryinJesus

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were the pharisees not non believers? who thought they were believers (in God) because of their righteousness?
That’s what makes it such a sobering thought. That part about their thinking they were believers. I can relate. Since I was ten I thought I was a believer. I said the prayer accepting God into my heart. (Multiple times). When I heard of the movies of left behind I was convinced I would not be one left behind. But after decades looking back now …I didn’t know God at all. I can definitely relate to thinking you are something that you are not. I did it for a long time, not even aware how wrong I was.
 

Eternally Grateful

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That’s what makes it such a sobering thought. That part about their thinking they were believers. I can relate. Since I was ten I thought I was a believer. I said the prayer accepting God into my heart. (Multiple times). When I heard of the movies of left behind I was convinced I would not be one left behind. But after decades looking back now …I didn’t know God at all. I can definitely relate to thinking you are something that you are not. I did it for a long time, not even aware how wrong I was.
But the pharisees thought they were Gods and continued to think it because they thought religion made them right with God. They thought being a jew made them right with God. Not because they said a sinners prayer.

If you prayed to God and asked him to save you, why do you think he did not? That is what I would ask you. Why were you so wrong?
 

Episkopos

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why would you accuse her falsely? Why would you even hint that she said she needed affirmation. This is you saying this not here. Just another deflect.

And I see your puppet @faithfulness is right their to love every word that comes out of your mouth. Why would he/she think this either? Because you think it?
It's funny that you don't question the self-interest gang. That's natural. What isn't natural are people with actual spiritual discernment. For you these are aberrations. For that you cry foul.

Do I complain when birds of a feather flock together against me? You betray your true motive in finding your safety in numbers. Follow the crowd.
 

Episkopos

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But the pharisees thought they were Gods and continued to think it because they thought religion made them right with God. They thought being a jew made them right with God. Not because they said a sinners prayer.

If you prayed to God and asked him to save you, why do you think he did not? That is what I would ask you. Why were you so wrong?
You are doing the same or worse, are you not? You believe the bible saves you. Being religious makes you right with God? Without any say so from God Himself? Why? Because others do the same? The Pharisees also hung out with each other. They voted as a majority against Christ and His disciples. Does that make them right?

Who had the deeper life? You justify yourself for having certain beliefs. Fine. But you expose your true nature when you show hatred for the truth. Had you stayed silent and just thought maybe you were justified... :rolleyes:
 

Eternally Grateful

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It's funny that you don't question the self-interest gang.

What do you mean? I question you and those like you all the time.. why would you accuse me of not doing something I do>
That's natural. What isn't natural are people with actual spiritual discernment.
then is that why it is natural for you to falsly accuse or see things in others that are not there in ignorance?
For you these are aberrations. For that you cry foul.
It is foul to accuse someone of somethign she did not do.. Yet you do this stuff all the time.. I believe it is a deflection tactic. So you can still hide what you know to be true.. But I am just assuming that is what it is..
Do I complain when birds of a feather flock together against me?
Do you care? I don‘t care? But I will call someone out who falsly accuses a brother or sister..

Its one thing to not care about what people think of us, Its a far other thing to ignore when you see someone else wronged.
You betray your true motive in finding your safety in numbers. Follow the crowd.
Finding safety in numbers?

lol. Another deflection. I have apposed you when I was the only one and everyone was backing you and attacking me

but that does not matter, what matters is the truth

the truth is, you saw something in a sister that was not there. You as much as bore false witness against her (breaking one of the commands) and I called you out for it. And here you are once again failing to take accountability. Failing to admit you screwed up. And defleft from what really happened. Like you always do.

shame on you
 

Episkopos

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That would be you who is seeking his self affirmation by belittling others. You will never sufficiently scratch that itch, you have to repudiate it, in other words, repent.

Much love!
False as can be. Maybe you can't receive instruction or correction....and maybe you try stopping others from advancing beyond what you have limited God to?

For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
 

Eternally Grateful

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Exactly what you do. You called it...you do it. Try NOT deflecting for a moment.
If I deflect. i deflect to call attention to a false accuser of the brethren and sisters.. Because they have falsely accused them of doing somethign they did not do.

I know. You do not like being called out Especially in public. But then again, you always have your followers.. We know. Because they love your posts. But act in silence,, do you tell them not to speak?
 

marks

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False as can be. Maybe you can't receive instruction or correction....and maybe you try stopping others from advancing beyond what you have limited God to?

For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
You only prove my point with your continued behavior. As your past behavior has been, so you continue in your course, railing against others in dishonesty and all that goes with it.

Much love!
 
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Eternally Grateful

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You are doing the same or worse, are you not?
Oh I am?

You believe the bible saves you.
Oh I do. When did I ever say this?
Being religious makes you right with God?
According to you yes. Religion says hey God look at me, it points to self. Not to christ. That is your gospel 101. Look how great (holy) I am, and praise God I am not like the sinner.
Without any say so from God Himself?
God rejected religion, and self righteousness.
Why? Because others do the same?
Is that why you do what you do? I mean think about it. Most of the world religion is really no different than yours. be holy. Or do more good deeds then bad deeds, or walk like God. And your in..

who needs to pay for their sins..
The Pharisees also hung out with each other. They voted as a majority against Christ and His disciples. Does that make them right?
There were wrong then and are wrong today, just like you are
Who had the deeper life?
Who has a deeper life? Whoever trusts God and is born again, because they have been forgiven of all sin. And in faith learn to walk in him

Not a person who is religious ands thinks he can walk like christ, and because he can (in his mind) God will forgive him and let him go directly to heaven.
You justify yourself for having certain beliefs.
No. I can;t justify myself how many times do i have to tell you this?

Why do you continually have to lie about people? Do you think it makes you look good?
Fine. But you expose your true nature when you show hatred for the truth.
I Hate th elite. Thats why I accuse you of it. Get of your high horse. Stop pointing to yourself and learn to point to God. Until you do that, You will have a few followers. But you will never have truth
Had you stayed silent and just thought maybe you were justified... :rolleyes:
I know I am justified. Because God promised..

I am not trying to justify myself. Thats you my friend.

Come to the cross.. I pray for you and your followers.. Have a come to jesus day
 

Episkopos

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Incorrect-and who were the recipients?





2) "For, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." (idou gar he basileia tou theou entos humon estin) "For behold or take note, the kingdom of God (specifically called the "kingdom of heaven", the church) is (exists already) within you, or within your midst," the midst of the Jewish Pharisees or among them, Luk_17:20. For He had already called and chosen His church, His bride, and begun His house, Joh_15:16; Joh_15:27; Mat_16:18; 1Ti_3:15; Heb_3:6.

Luk 17:21 Nor οὐδὲ will [people] say, ἐροῦσιν ‘Look, ‘Ἰδοὺ here [it is],’ ὧδε or ἤ ‘There [it is].’ ‘Ἐκεῖ· For γὰρ you see, ἰδοὺ the ἡ kingdom βασιλεία - τοῦ of God Θεοῦ is ἐστιν.” in your ὑμῶν midst.” ἐντὸς

Luk 17:21 nor will they say, Hinei, here it is, or There it is, for hinei, the Malchut Hashem is within you.

Luk 17:21 Nor shall they say, Behold, here, or, Behold, there. For behold, the kingdom of God [within you is].
Within you (entos humōn). This is the obvious, and, as I think, the necessary meaning of entos. The examples cited of the use of entos in Xenophon and Plato where entos means “among” do not bear that out when investigated. Field (Ot. Norv.) “contends that there is no clear instance of entos in the sense of among” (Bruce), and rightly so. What Jesus says to the Pharisees is that they, as others, are to look for the kingdom of God within themselves, not in outward displays and supernatural manifestations. It is not a localized display “Here” or “There.” It is in this sense that in Luk_11:20 Jesus spoke of the kingdom of God as “come upon you” (ephthasen eph' humās), speaking to Pharisees. The only other instance of entos in the N.T. (Mat_23:26) necessarily means “within” (“the inside of the cup”). There is, beside, the use of entos meaning “within” in the Oxyrhynchus Papyrus saying of Jesus of the Third Century (Deissmann, Light from the Ancient East, p. 426) which is interesting: “The kingdom of heaven is within you” (entos humōn as here in Luk_17:21).
RWP


Bible literalists believe in a physical earthly Davidic kingdom come to Israel.

One passage used against the literal interpretation of the physical kingdom is Luke 17:20-21.

“The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.” – Luke 17:20-21

Read out of context, Jesus might be portrayed as a gray-haired Obi-Wan that comes to reinterpret a thousand years of prophecy for the naïve Bible literalists.

Read in context, it becomes clear that it is not a threat to what the disciples believed about the coming of a literal kingdom to earth. In fact, Jesus affirms how they will see the Son of Man coming.

Who is the audience?

A question oft ignored when studying Jesus’ teachings is “who is the audience?”

Those familiar with rightly dividing the scripture know it is the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Rom 15:8, John 1:11). Jesus came to minister to the circumcision not the Gentiles nor the mystery church which was still kept secret (Rom 16:25; Eph 3:6).

More specifically, in Luke 17:20-21 Jesus is speaking to unbelieving Israel, not the believing remnant.

This is important for understanding why Jesus said the kingdom cometh not with observation, because unbelieving Israel rejected their King. They did not see it.

Not With Observation

Throughout his ministry to Israel, Jesus explained that they would not see the kingdom of God without believing in the Son of God.

Consider, another passage where Jesus is speaking to an unbelieving master in Israel, Nicodemus.

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” – John 3:3
Observing the kingdom of God required Israel to be born again. Unbelieving Pharisees surely would not see the kingdom of God, but be judged.

After telling the unbelieving Pharisees that the kingdom cometh not with observation, he turns to his faithful disciples and tells them how to observe his coming which would be like lightning (Luke 17:24).

“For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.” – Luke 17:24
They would not see the Messiah for a time, but all will see the Son of Man in his day as lightning. To believers it would be their redemption and kingdom come, for the unbelievers it would be judgment.

The Kingdom Within You

In Luke 17:21 Jesus tells the unbelieving Phariseees that the kingdom of God is within you.

Spiritualizers of the kingdom argue that this is proof that the kingdom is inside all of us like the force, and is not to be described literally as it appeared in Israel’s prophecies.

However, we cannot forget who is the audience. Jesus is not talking to believers, but unbelievers that would not see the kingdom. The kingdom of God is not in these faithless Pharisees in any sense.

“But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:” – John 12:37
In Luke 17 immediately before this kingdom question, Jesus healed the lepers. These unbelievers rejected these miracles as proof he was the King, and “demanded” Jesus answer their question so as to trap, mock, and catch him in lies.

The events in Luke 17 are similar to when Jesus healed the blind and dumb in Matt 12:22. The Pharisees denied the miracles and said Jesus had a devil.

Jesus’ response: if you believe who I am, the kingdom of God is come unto you.

“But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.” – Matt 12:28
Another similar circumstance was when Jesus sent the seventy disciples to heal the sick. He told them to proclaim “the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you” (Luke 10:9).

If they rejected their miracles by power of God they were to say:

“Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.” – Luke 10:11
In Luke 17:21 Jesus was not revealing hidden truth about the kingdom being spiritual and not physical, especially to these spiritually blind faithless Pharisees. He answered their demand exactly the right way.

The way he always had to unbelievers, with the truth that they will not see the kingdom unless they first believe in Him.

Jesus was within Israel, but now he is gone. He will return with observation bringing his kingdom to those who believe (Matt 24:30; Luke 21:28).

Conclusion

While Jesus told his disciples he must leave, he was at that time still with them and all the nation.

The unbelieving Pharisees did not believe Jesus to be the Son of God nor the prophesied Son of Man in Daniel, even while he was still with them doing miracles.

For these Pharisees to demand when the kingdom would come is tantamount to a blind man demanding during a beautiful sunrise when the sun would come up.

The Son of God had come to Israel, and they did not believe.

The kingdom cometh not with observation to these Pharisees because they reject the very one who will bring it. The one standing with them, doing miracles in their midst, was the Son of Man preaching the kingdom come.

Luke 17:20-21 is much clearer when we rightly divide Jesus’ audience.








You are not rightly dividing the Scriptures @Episkopos.
You are confusing Jesus with Buddha. If you knew Hebrew better you would know that the prophecies about God dwelling AMONG His people (OT)...as well as in them(NT saints). In the case of Jesus speaking to the Pharisees (NOT NT saints), Jesus was saying that the kingdom of God was in their midst....not inside of them.

Only a VERY few have Jesus filling them with rivers of living water. Again, that is for those who enter INTO Him to be where He is. Zion. The Source of life is in Christ...not us. It is only found in us AFTER we enter into Him and abide in Him.

The sin of the Pharisees was to claim something they didn't have. In God's eyes that was worse than being an infidel. Among actual believers there is fear of the Lord...to, if anything, claim to be LESS THAN what they are. But among charlatans, it's a free for all....for now.
 
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