The Galilean wedding is the model for the pre-trib rapture

[WPM]

Just more nonsense. I challenge you to show where I said the 24 elders is the Church. What post #?

I did in the last post. Have a look at it again.

 

[MA2444]

Pretribbers must now resort to pettiness and insults. They have nothing else to bring to the table. I refer you back to the many avoided posts/arguments above.

No. We explain it to you, but we cant understand it for you. You have to do that...and you cant.

Actually that was poor way to put it. You can do it if you want to, but it takes an effort on your part.

 

[WPM]

lol. You post a bunch of out context scriptures and then say you are avoided. I don't have time to deal with all of your nonsense. Let's see you find the post where I said the 24 elders is the Church. Or are you going to avoid.

Exactly! Pretrib cannot abide engaging with the inspired text so they resort to pettiness and ad hominem. How sad!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Rev 14:14 alone blows everything away but pretrib rapture.
But if setting, and timing of Jesus " before the flood" is invoked, it is hands down no contest.
And the modifying necessary of the virgins parable to fit anything but a pretrib rapture is shocking.

All talk and no substance. Citing a verse proves nothing. Claiming victory proves nothing. Framing every argument in your favor shows a distinct lack of evidence for your position. I asked for *explicit Pretrib doctrine,* and you still bat zero. Sorry, just being factual--nothing personal.

 

[MA2444]

Exactly! Pretrib cannot abide engaging with the inspired text so they resort to pettiness and ad hominem. How sad!

Keep lying. I engaged it very well (so have others) and you do the same thing with all of us, dismiss the scriptures and start putting people down.

Is that how a teacher is supposed to act? Is that how a Pastor acts?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Dont twist my words Satan.

You're calling me "Satan," a life-long every week in church Christian? Are you a grade-school Christian who hasn't learned to tie your spiritual shoelaces yet? We should act like Christians who demonstrate Christ's love to friend and foe alike, and you call me "Satan?" What a horrible message you send!

I said not a single verse which spells out the entire rapture in the one single verse. Yes it's all throught scripture but you guys...cant be that stupid so your eveil. Liars.

You need to get back into your prayer closet and collect yourself. You admitted that you have no explicit Pretrib verses in the order WPM asked for. I echo his sentiment that it was noble of you to admit that--very honest, to your own hurt.

But now you wish to double back and double down, saying Pretrib doctrine is *all through Scriptures?* Your honesty, I suppose, is good for only 5 minutes?

I've met real posttribbers before who were really Christians, just had more to learn is all. You guys aint even post trib. You dont teach truth, you dont have good questions. And you make no sense. Be cause....that's not your agenda here! Satan!

I was raised Postrib, though unknowingly, because I didn't know anything else. Friends convinced me in my adolescence that Pretrib was the "normal" eschatology. But after memorizing 2 Thessalonians I recognized that Paul was actually teaching Postrib doctrine. So I changed my view to Postrib, which was back in perhaps 1972.

I have no wish to "win an argument" by getting you to fall apart spiritually, I hope you're just having a bad moment.

 

[MA2444]

All talk and no substance. Citing a verse proves nothing. Claiming victory proves nothing. Framing every argument in your favor shows a distinct lack of evidence for your position. I asked for *explicit Pretrib doctrine,* and you still bat zero. Sorry, just being factual--nothing personal.

Your mistake is in rolling the rapture and 2nd coming into one event. There's little clues all over the place, but you fail to see them.

Jesus Himself comes for his Bride the church.
He sends His Angels to gather the remaining at the 2nd coming.
The rapture is secret.
The 2nd coming every eye will see him.

I could go on and on with the clues. All the scriptures have already been posted so go do your homework for yourself.

 

[WPM]

Keep lying. I engaged it very well (so have others) and you do the same thing with all of us, dismiss the scriptures and start putting people down.

Is that how a teacher is supposed to act? Is that how a Pastor acts?

What text supports your doctrine? Show us it. Lets engage! Let us see where this Pretrib rapture is taught and corroborated in God's Book. Let us see a rapture of the Church followed by a seven year tribulation (or any protracted tribulation) after it. Let us see where your 2nd rapture and 3rd coming is in Holy Writ. So far, you guys have produced nothing. You are all noise!

 

[WPM]

Your mistake is in rolling the rapture and 2nd coming into one event. There's little clues all over the place, but you fail to see them.

Jesus Himself comes for his Bride the church.
He sends His Angels to gather the remaining at the 2nd coming.
The rapture is secret.
The 2nd coming every eye will see him.

I could go on and on with the clues. All the scriptures have already been posted so go do your homework for yourself.

All we are getting is your private opinions. That is all you have. You have no Scripture that teaches that. You know that. That is why you cannot engage on the multiple Scriptures above. All you have is venomous attacks on anyone who disagrees with you.

Give us the Scriptures that teach this secret rapture? List them. Quote them.

 

[MA2444]

You're calling me "Satan," a life-long every week in church Christian? Are you a grade-school Christian who hasn't learned to tie your spiritual shoelaces yet? We should act like Christians who demonstrate Christ's love to friend and foe alike, and you call me "Satan?" What a horrible message you send!

Jesus said get behind me satan to Peter. Evrything that Jesus has done, we will do and more. So get thee behind me satan.

You need to get back into your prayer closet and collect yourself. You admitted that you have no explicit Pretrib verses in the order WPM asked for. I echo his sentiment that it was noble of you to admit that--very honest, to your own hurt.

But now you wish to double back and double down, saying Pretrib doctrine is *all through Scriptures?* Your honesty, I suppose, is good for only 5 minutes?

Is this you trying to be polite or sound respectable now? To Moi? Wow that's a first!

I was raised Postrib, though unknowingly, because I didn't know anything else. Friends convinced me in my adolescence that Pretrib was the "normal" eschatology. But after memorizing 2 Thessalonians I recognized that Paul was actually teaching Postrib doctrine. So I changed my view to Postrib, which was back in perhaps 1972.

I have no wish to "win an argument" by getting you to fall apart spiritually, I hope you're just having a bad moment.

What does this mean? Are you trying to engage the scriptures with me, for real?

I doubt that, you've had way too much crap mouth towards pretribbers to do that now. If you want to engage the scriptures that I've posted...back up and find them and quote them and engage to your hearts content!

I aint about waste more time typing tings out and explaining things to you people when most your responses are all the same. Why not try to figure out how you are accidently making two different events be one? It's not hard to see!

 

[MA2444]

What text supports your doctrine? Show us it. Lets engage! Let us see where this Pretrib rapture is taught and corroborated in God's Book. Let us see a rapture of the Church followed by a seven year tribulation (or any protracted tribulation) after it. Let us see where your 2nd rapture and 3rd coming is in Holy Writ. So far, you guys have produced nothing. You are all noise!

I dont believe you. You must be lying. I already posted a slew of scriptures for you and you didnt ever engage the scriptures.

Oh waitaminute. You said I had Proverbs scripture out of context. And that's it. Is that engaging it? No it is not. So if you want more scriptures, re-read the thread and take notes. I'm done wasting time on you trying to explain.

No offense brother, but you talk like a woman. When men talk, they state their position, then identify the problem area and give the true answer. Where have you done that even once?

You posting scriptures that dont even match what you're saying and then getting frustrated and popping off....is exactly how women talk.

 

[Randy Kluth]

No
I am saying they DO change components.

Where?

Thankfully the parables are oversimplified by Jesus so that very little discernment is needed.

How did Jesus "simplify" the parables?

My assertion is correct that postribs do change them.
....as THEY HAVE put on display.

Where do Postribs "change" the parables? Parables are designed to be interpreted. Interpreting them is not *changing them!*

I just stick to the components themselves.

No you don't. You insert Pretrib theology into it, which of course is far removed from the parable and its meaning.

Oil equals Holy Spirit...no brainer.

That is "changing the parable" every much as you claim Postribs change the parable. The "oil" has to do with whether a believer has chosen to be "long-term" or "short-term." Nothing is said there that the oil is the Holy Spirit, even if that is true. Are you "changing the component parts of the parable?"

Virgins equal believer. Undefiled, pure chase, set aside.

Virgins in context were brides-maids. Are you "changing the parable and its component parts?" If not, why do you accuse Postribs of changing the parable when they are interpreting just as you do?

I'm not really sure about some aspects of this, and I'll admit it. If the "virgins" were bridesmaids, then they weren't the bride. But if the virgins represented Christians, then they would be represented not as the bride of Christ, but rather, only as servants of Christ.

That's why I think Jesus was presenting this parable in its own time, before the Cross. This is when Israel was still viewed as servants of God, and not yet as the bride of God.

So when was Israel legally wed to Chrsit? I think it was at the Cross, when true belief was determined by a life-long commitment to Christ. The wedding, however, does not take place until Christ's Return. That's when the legal marriage/engagement is actually consummated.

Setting is peacetime ,normal life.
Bride is taken to the marriage chamber
Postribbers need those changed.

Not at all. I don't know any Postribber who changes either the parable or this meaning. A parable is not a re-run of an already-existing plot. It isn't a sequel. Rather, it is a short story that depicts, in abbreviated form, a larger story, usually to make a moral point.

For example, the metaphorical statement that we should build our house not on the sand but on the rock is a statement that has little interest in providing fine details about how we build our lives on Christ. It doesn't matter whether it takes place under peaceable conditions or not. The focus is on how sturdy our foundation is, and on our need to ensure the foundation is Christ.

The conditions under which the Groom comes, whether war-time or peace-time is of little concern besides the fact that the virgins should be prepared in advance, and determined to be so with an enduring commitment to the marriage. Why do you bring up concerns about whether this "marriage" will take place in war-time or peace-time when that is not even the object of the parable?

But the conditions of the endtime and Christ's Return are given in other places where focus on that as the priority. You are adding details that Jesus himself found unnecessary in this particular case.

 

[MA2444]

All we are getting is your private opinions. That is all you have. You have no Scripture that teaches that. You know that. That is why you cannot engage on the multiple Scriptures above. All you have is venomous attacks on anyone who disagrees with you.

Give us the Scriptures that teach this secret rapture? List them. Quote them.

Get thee behind me satan. I already posted them for you. I gave you a huge list of scriptures!

I'm not doing it again. And at this point, yes I have opinion for you. The opinion that all you want to do is waste peoples time and cause confusion to newer christians. But hey look at the brght side, you got a wife and son to help you in your madness.

Good luck with your homework!

 

[The Light]

Exactly! Pretrib cannot abide engaging with the inspired text so they resort to pettiness and ad hominem. How sad!

Get real. The problem has never been proof. It is getting you to understand the proof.

Like I said, you don't understand who is raptured immediately after the tribulation. It is not the Church. It is the 12 tribes, the seed of the woman, Israel.

 

[MA2444]

Where do Postribs "change" the parables? Parables are designed to be interpreted. Interpreting them is not *changing them!*

Want my opinion where you guys & gals change them?

Interpreting them when you re correct is not changing them. Interpreting them and being off base is changing them. You have shown yourself to be off base.

 

[WPM]

I dont believe you. You must be lying. I already posted a slew of scriptures for you and you didnt ever engage the scriptures.

Oh waitaminute. You said I had Proverbs scripture out of context. And that's it. Is that engaging it? No it is not. So if you want more scriptures, re-read the thread and take notes. I'm done wasting time on you trying to explain.

No offense brother, but you talk like a woman. When men talk, they state their position, then identify the problem area and give the true answer. Where have you done that even once?

You posting scriptures that dont even match what you're saying and then getting frustrated and popping off....is exactly how women talk.

What are you scared of? LOL. A lot! You're scared of the Book! It has exposed your Jesuit doctrine. You have been unable to present any Scripture that supports Pretrib - nothing! Your doctrine has crumbled before your eyes on this thread. That is why you're so bitter, evasive and frustrated. You have a lot to conceal. That is why you cannot bring anything to the table. You have nothing!

Checkmate!

 

[WPM]

Get real. The problem has never been proof. It is getting you to understand the proof.

Like I said, you don't understand who is raptured immediately after the tribulation. It is not the Church. It is the 12 tribes, the seed of the woman, Israel.

Present a text (any text), exegete this text and lets' examine it to see if you have a rapture passage that teaches a 7 year trib (or any trib) after it. Lets leave your 2nd rapture and 3rd coming to the side for a moment in order to help your cause.

 

[MA2444]

What are you scared of? LOL. A lot! You're scared of the Book! It has exposure your Jesuit doctrine. You have been unable to present any Scripture that supports Pretrib - nothing! Your doctrine has crumble before your eyes on this thread. That is why you're so bitter, evasive and frustrated. You have a lot to conceal. That is why you cannot bring anything to the table. You have nothing!

Checkmate!

Ok. Let's do this one

Proverbs 25:2
2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.../KJV

You said I have taken this out of context. Whatever do you mean, Teacher? Please expound on that one. Where am I wrong? How am I out of context?


You cant be a teacher and just say, oh your wrong...and then not show where is the mistake? How to do it right. So have at it. I bet money that you'll dodge it.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Jesus said get behind me satan to Peter. Evrything that Jesus has done, we will do and more. So get thee behind me satan.

Yes, but you are not Jesus, nor are you remotely acting like Jesus!

If you want to engage the scriptures that I've posted...back up and find them and quote them and engage to your hearts content!

I know all the Scriptures, and I know all of the Pretrib arguments. I've been reading them since the mid-70s. For example, I read Walvoord, and have read a number of books by Pretrib authors, including Hal Lindsey, Chuck Smith, Oral Roberts, Gordon Lindsay, etc.

Once when I corresponded with Zola Levitt's ministry a person there demanded I read Dwight Pentecost, which is a rather large work. The guy wouldn't engage any of my arguments, so I questioned his sincerity. TBN/the Crouches would not answer any of my questions. Hal Lindsey would not reply. Chuck Smith asked me not to attend his church.

I've read books that compared the positions. I've just been honest with you. It really is telling that when people cannot defend their views they either hide and don't answer or they get mad and insult you. I try to maintain the right attitude, and you wish to hijack any effort I make. "Try to be at peace with all men."

I aint about waste more time typing tings out and explaining things to you people when most your responses are all the same. Why not try to figure out how you are accidently making two different events be one? It's not hard to see!

I can't make 2 events 1 if there is only 1. And my argument is simple--naturally we would all agree on most of the points.
1) There is Postrib Doctrine in the Bible, and no Pretrib Doctrine.
2) The 2nd Coming of Christ has a major source in Daniel 7, where the Son of Man comes with the clouds. This is the only 2nd Coming in the NT Scriptures. All references to Christ's Coming for his Church relates to this single Postrib event.

 

[MA2444]

Present a text (any text), exegete this text and lets' examine it to see if you have a rapture passage that teaches a 7 year trib (or any trib) after it. Lets leave your 2nd rapture and 3rd coming to the side for a moment in order to help your cause.

I posted a few of those for you and you ignored them.