No Condemnation For Those In Christ, But... Sinning Believers Are Condemned Ro 14:23?

[GracePeace]

if your justification is determined by your obedience You will lose.

God makes it clear what his standard is, it is perfection.

There is only one who will stand upright on judgment day and that is the man Jesus himself.

The rest of us will stand on his work (by grace through faith)

or they will stand on their works, and in the end be condemned because they failed to believe

No, actually, Christians walk in God's righteousness, not their own, when they walk in faith.

For instance, Paul says "I was abundant in labors above them all, yet, not I, but the grace with me", and "Christ came and preached to you" (when the minister went to preach, it was Christ).

Romans 2 says the doers of the Law will be justified--and it cites the believing Gentiles as examples of men who will be justified by being doers of the Law (Ro 2:6-16, 26, 27).

I don't throw one part of the Bible out in order to stand by the other part of it--I will not give up on understanding how it all makes sense.

 

[GracePeace]

Sad thing is, Those visions are probably God..

Yes, Jesus told me He was perfecting me with those indescribably terrifying visitations from satanists.
He forced me to believe in what I don't believe in just so I could get rid of them.
They visited me, or threatened to, every night for about 7 years.

 

[GracePeace]

Sad thing is, Those visions are probably God..

Not sure why it would be "sad" when it's Jesus helping me.

 

[Peterlag]

OK So, by your logic, there is no objection to reconciling Ro 8:1 and 14:23 by saying people can go back to walking after their "old dead nature self", which I would define as not remaining in Christ, where there is no condemnation, which is also doing things you don't really believe in, but things you doubt are correct.

I can agree with that. And thank you so much for posting this because you taught me stuff.

 

[GracePeace]

I can agree with that. And thank you so much for posting this because you taught me stuff.

Glory to God.
I try to have a belief that is coherent. I study and ask God for understanding.
I try to help others, and others help me, even when they oppose me.

 

[GracePeace]

Sad thing is, Those visions are probably God..

Once I believed in the truth that Jesus saved me (past-tense), I woke up, and saw that they were in terrible trouble, and all their structures were being destroyed, and they were revealed to me as being vampires. I think their vampirism is based on fear. They steal spiritual energy from others by instilling fear in people. Not sure about much more than that on that issue. They can't stand it when someone has peace with God through Christ. They have zero power--whereas, when you fail to believe, they have immense indescribable power. It makes sense, because they work with fallen angels, who are greater than mere humans in power. They're utterly powerless when Christ is believed on. Poof, they're gone. Like turning the light on, the darkness has no choice but to flee.

 

[Peterlag]

Glory to God.
I try to have a belief that is coherent. I study and ask God for understanding.
I try to help others, and others help me, even when they oppose me.

Well, you done good by staying with me long enough for me to think this through.

 

[Behold]

Romans 2 says the doers of the Law will be justified--

The born again are "not under the Law, but under Grace"

"Christ is the end of the LAW, for righteousness, to everyone who believes"

"Christ has redeemed the born again from the CURSE of the Law".

 

[Eternally Grateful]

No, actually, Christians walk in God's righteousness, not their own, when they walk in faith.

True

But they still are fallen short of Gods glory. Because Gods standard is perfect. Only Christ achieved this state, You and I become disqualified many many years ago,.

For instance, Paul says "I was abundant in labors above them all, yet, not I, but the grace with me", and "Christ came and preached to you" (when the minister went to preach, it was Christ).

Romans 2 says the doers of the Law will be justified--and it cites the believing Gentiles as examples of men who will be justified by being doers of the Law (Ro 2:6-16, 26, 27).

I don't throw one part of the Bible out in order to stand by the other part of it--I will not give up on understanding how it all makes sense.

But you do throw one part of the bible out!, in fact, you throw many parts of the bible out. And the ones you quote. you do not understand.

The law condemned you where you stand apart from Grace If you do not know this you do not know the law

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes, Jesus told me He was perfecting me with those indescribably terrifying visitations from satanists.
He forced me to believe in what I don't believe in just so I could get rid of them.
They visited me, or threatened to, every night for about 7 years.

lol

No my friend, that was not Jesus

Jesus would not tell you that you have met his standard of perfection and now have saved yourself.

But satan, He wants you to believe this in your heart. because then he will keep you from humbling yourself and coming to the cross

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Not sure why it would be "sad" when it's Jesus helping me.

Its not Jesus.

than is as pain as the sky is blue

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Once I believed in the truth that Jesus saved me (past-tense), I woke up, and saw that they were in terrible trouble, and all their structures were being destroyed, and they were revealed to me as being vampires. I think their vampirism is based on fear. They steal spiritual energy from others by instilling fear in people. Not sure about much more than that on that issue. They can't stand it when someone has peace with God through Christ. They have zero power--whereas, when you fail to believe, they have immense indescribable power. It makes sense, because they work with fallen angels, who are greater than mere humans in power. They're utterly powerless when Christ is believed on. Poof, they're gone. Like turning the light on, the darkness has no choice but to flee.

whats amazing is you preach fear.

God came to give hope in him. You offer hope in self. which quite frankly is no hope at all

God came to offer peace. You offer no peace at all. in your mind or in your soul. or peace with God because you demand God accept you as you are with all your sin, because you try to be good and do a bunch of works.

God did not give the spirit of fear. but of sound mind, You do not offer sound mind, You offer division, Hopelessness. Hope in self and not in God.

I can go on and on. But you do not offer the rest that God offers (come to me and I will give you rest) you offer ignorance at the least (ignorance as to how sinful you really are) deception (decieved that you are good enough to earn gods love, and deception that your sin would still condemn you where you stand) and you offer a false hope (many in that day will come praising all their good works. Jesus will say depart. I NEVER KNEW YOU

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Well, you done good by staying with me long enough for me to think this through.

You have me worried..

 

[CadyandZoe]

You're only raising another issue that needs another thread.

We've already discussed your way of trying to reconcile Ro 8:1 and 14:23--your way of preserving 8:1 is to simply deny the obvious truth that the one in view in 14:23 is a "true believer" at all. We also saw that there is no one, not even those who hold to your view you're preserving by denying the plain truth of the text, who agrees with you.

I can't live like that, knowing I'm denying truth just to protect my system.

That isn't true. First, the two verses don't need to be reconciled because they don't discuss the same subject. Secondly, contrary to what you claim. Secondly, you have yet to establish that 14:23 talks about a believer since you haven't yet said what is being doubted.

Lastly, I believe it's important to address the core of our debate. You've chosen not to discuss the fundamental point that a person whom God is saving has forgiven his or her sins. Therefore, since God has forgiven the one in Romans 8:1, and since God would not go back on his promise, it's logical to conclude that God is not the one condemning the one in 14:23.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The same God that promises He forgets sin also forgets righteousness.

Ezekiel 18
24But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and practices iniquity, committing the same abominations as the wicked, will he live? None of the righteous acts he did will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness and sin he has committed, he will die.

This verse, while seemingly relevant, is not applicable to our discussion as it presents a view of meritorious salvation. It's crucial to understand that, according to Jesus and the Apostles, our salvation is a result of grace, not our own works. This understanding is key to our theological exploration.

In the New Covenant, faith is counted as righteousness, so the righteousness God "forgets" is that the person had faith--their name is blotted out of the Book of Life, and the debt that had been forgiven and forgotten returns before God.

That isn't true. The Greek word translated "righteousness" in Paul's epistles has three distinct meanings depending on the context. In Paul's view, Abraham was accounted as "justified" by his faith. This is not the same thing as being accounted "righteous," as the Ezekiel passage means.

 

[GracePeace]

The born again are "not under the Law, but under Grace"

"Christ is the end of the LAW, for righteousness, to everyone who believes"

"Christ has redeemed the born again from the CURSE of the Law".

Yep, that's why Romans 2 needs to be reconciled.

The doer of the Law, there, is the Gentile believer on whose heart the Law is written. By being under Grace, they fulfill the righteous requirement of the Law without being under Law. They don't even know the Law (v14,15,26, 27).

 

[GracePeace]

True

But they still are fallen short of Gods glory. Because Gods standard is perfect. Only Christ achieved this state, You and I become disqualified many many years ago,.

But you do throw one part of the bible out!, in fact, you throw many parts of the bible out. And the ones you quote. you do not understand.

The law condemned you where you stand apart from Grace If you do not know this you do not know the law

Romans 2 says doers of the Law will be justified.

 

[GracePeace]

lol

No my friend, that was not Jesus

Jesus would not tell you that you have met his standard of perfection and now have saved yourself.

But satan, He wants you to believe this in your heart. because then he will keep you from humbling yourself and coming to the cross

Well actually it worked. I couldn't accept the importance of His having saved me (past-tense) before. I always thought my works were what saved me. When I did accept that Christ saved me, they went away.

However, I admitted I only accept that doctrine in that manner under that kind of pressure; the rest of the time, I'm puzzled as to why the Bible says the things it does, and I try to make sense of it.

 

[GracePeace]

whats amazing is you preach fear.

God came to give hope in him. You offer hope in self. which quite frankly is no hope at all

God came to offer peace. You offer no peace at all. in your mind or in your soul. or peace with God because you demand God accept you as you are with all your sin, because you try to be good and do a bunch of works.

God did not give the spirit of fear. but of sound mind, You do not offer sound mind, You offer division, Hopelessness. Hope in self and not in God.

I can go on and on. But you do not offer the rest that God offers (come to me and I will give you rest) you offer ignorance at the least (ignorance as to how sinful you really are) deception (decieved that you are good enough to earn gods love, and deception that your sin would still condemn you where you stand) and you offer a false hope (many in that day will come praising all their good works. Jesus will say depart. I NEVER KNEW YOU

No, actually, I try to square Scripture with Scripture, and people like yourself are of no assistance.

 

[GracePeace]

That isn't true. First, the two verses don't need to be reconciled because they don't discuss the same instance.

Not sure how "condemned" isn't the same subject.

Secondly, contrary to what you claim. Secondly, you have yet to establish that 14:23 talks about a believer since you haven't yet said what is being doubted.

Actually, it was established literally everyone agrees with me because it's what's plainly stated. I can point you to an equation stating 2 + 2 = 4 but if you choose to go outside of logic, and deny it, what can i do? I accept that you reject my claim and I move on.

Lastly, I believe it's important to address the core of our debate. You've chosen not to discuss the fundamental point that a person whom God is saving has forgiven his or her sins. Therefore, since God has forgiven the one in Romans 8:1, and since God would not go back on his promise, it's logical to conclude that God is not the one condemning the one in 14:23.

Already debunked this with Matthew 18.