Lucifer AKA Satan

[face2face]

The falling of Satan like lightning happened at Christ's ascension on the morning after His resurrection. Because of this, the loud voice in heaven declared at that time, "NOW is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night." (Rev. 12:10). This victory in heaven over Satan and his devils when they were all cast out was accomplished by virtue of the "blood of the Lamb" (Rev. 12:11). This sacrificial blood had just been offered to God by the ascended Christ in heaven on behalf of the saints, thus granting them Christ's righteousness vicariously in God's eyes. It made the legal terms of the saints' salvation secure for all time.

If this fall from heaven for Satan and his angels were in our future, then the terms of our salvation have NOT YET been secured legally. But yes, this fall from heaven for Satan and his devils most definitely did take place before the great tribulation, as you wrote above.

That casting out of Satan and his devils that morning after Christ's resurrection had inaugurated the "short time" of Satan's renewed deception of the nations after AD 33 (Rev. 12:12) and his angry warfare against the remnant of the woman's seed. The Apostles' NT writings about Satan's very active role of deception and persecution of the believers in those first-century days was proof that this was a very real threat in those days for that "short time" that Satan had left on this planet.

But that "short time" in the first century that Satan had left to operate in this world expired long ago. It has not extended some 2,000 years and counting, since that would make the definition of a "short time" a meaningless statement.

"Notion" - a conception of or belief about something...in this instance it's man-made

So many words above 3R but none of them supported by inspired text.

What happened to Ezekiel 28 - did you move on from that passage?

Not looking so good for you.

F2F

 

[face2face]

I have Threads that deal with "Satan", both historically and spiritually, and biblically.

I also have Threads that deal with Satan's Ministers, and how to "Spot them".

However, My previous conversation here, on this Thread... was related to Satan's Ministers, and Theology.

So you gave up? You didn't even look?

 

[face2face]

@3 Resurrections #56

Would you like to look at the true interpretation of Isaiah 14?

Out of interest - if you, like many Christians, come to understand the OT was completely silent on your eternal evil angel, how would that make you approach the NT?

Envisage that for a moment - 4000 years of world history and God failed to inform his people of this threat? How do you "get around" that?

Also, how do you approach the highly symbolic Revelation, if you come to realize there is no fallen angels?

F2F

 

[3 Resurrections]

Would you like to look at the true interpretation of Isaiah 14?

Out of interest - if you, like many Christians, come to understand the OT was completely silent on your eternal evil angel, how would that make you approach the NT?

But I do agree that Satan's deception of the nations was not operating during Isaiah's time in Isaiah 14. The deception that Israel was experiencing at that time was due to the idols which the people and the prophets had set up in their own hearts (Is. 14:4). Because of the prophets' already-idolatrous hearts, God said that "If the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet..." (Is. 14:9) This was not Satan's deception in operation, but God answering those prophets according to the lies that they were already determined to believe.

As Isaiah 13:17 also wrote, "Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy people, which prophesy out of their own heart."
And in Isaiah 13:1, "Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts..." These prophets had been speaking "lying divination" (Is. 13:6). None of this deception had originated from a Satanic or demonic source in those days. It was originating out of human hearts that were already determined to believe deception according to their own idolatry.

This aligns perfectly with the millennium conditions that were present at the time in Isaiah's days. Satan's deception of the nations was still being bound during those years, and had been ever since Solomon's temple foundation stone was laid down in 968 / 967 BC. That millennium lasted until Satan was released in AD 33 to deceive the nations once more for a "short time" during the first century before his destruction in AD 70.

 

[Runningman]

Did you realize what you did there? You left Luke 10:18 and went off to speak of another issue entirely unrelated to the discussion thread!

It's such a common thing to do when one is not comfortable with entering the text.


Luke 10:18 has absolutely nothing to do with what you are saying here - nothing at all!

So lets recap on what you have done.

1. You left Luke 10:18 and its context to discuss your interpretation method for the Revelation
2. You jumped to the highly symbolic Revelation 12 which has absolutely nothing to do with Luke 10:18 and its context regarding the successful preaching work of the 70.
3. You then jump to Ephesians 6:12 which is talking about the religious elite at that time who continue to persecute the believers as they had done so of Christ.

If I don't inform you of this maybe no-one will but this method of Bible Reading and Study offers you no value whatsoever.

It's like shifting sands - when you foundation is removed in Luke 10:18 you move to another location where the foundations fast erode from under your feet.

You will never come to a knowledge of truth doing this.

F2F

Thanks for sharing your opinion. So what verses demonstrate that Satan has fell like lightning already as opposed to what I have provided that demonstrates he hasn't fell like lightning yet?

 

[Runningman]

The falling of Satan like lightning happened at Christ's ascension on the morning after His resurrection. Because of this, the loud voice in heaven declared at that time, "NOW is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night." (Rev. 12:10). This victory in heaven over Satan and his devils when they were all cast out was accomplished by virtue of the "blood of the Lamb" (Rev. 12:11). This sacrificial blood had just been offered to God by the ascended Christ in heaven on behalf of the saints, thus granting them Christ's righteousness vicariously in God's eyes. It made the legal terms of the saints' salvation secure for all time.

If this fall from heaven for Satan and his angels were in our future, then the terms of our salvation have NOT YET been secured legally. But yes, this fall from heaven for Satan and his devils most definitely did take place before the great tribulation, as you wrote above.

That casting out of Satan and his devils that morning after Christ's resurrection had inaugurated the "short time" of Satan's renewed deception of the nations after AD 33 (Rev. 12:12) and his angry warfare against the remnant of the woman's seed. The Apostles' NT writings about Satan's very active role of deception and persecution of the believers in those first-century days was proof that this was a very real threat in those days for that "short time" that Satan had left on this planet.

But that "short time" in the first century that Satan had left to operate in this world expired long ago. It has not extended some 2,000 years and counting, since that would make the definition of a "short time" a meaningless statement.

So you believe in Preterism?

 

[3 Resurrections]

So you believe in Preterism?

I believe in the Scriptures. If you want to put a Preterist label on what I quote from scripture, that is your prerogative. But I am not like any brand of Preterist you have probably encountered before.

 

[Runningman]

I believe in the Scriptures. If you want to put a Preterist l label on what I quote from scripture, that is your prerogative. But I am not like any brand of Preterist you have probably encountered before.

I understand, but let's call it preterism just so we're all on the same page about what we are talking about. I will note that there are indeed different flavors of preterism, but the fall of Satan "like lightning" ,at or before the crucifixion, at least necessitates a partial adherence to preterism. I have nothing to add because I was just curious what you believe. I have not dismissed preterism as being possible since there is good evidence for it. It just leaves me wondering... if all of that already happened then what are we doing now?

 

[3 Resurrections]

I understand, but let's call it preterism just so we're all on the same page about what we are talking about. I will note that there are indeed different flavors of preterism, but the fall of Satan "like lightning" ,at or before the crucifixion, at least necessitates a partial adherence to preterism. I have nothing to add because I was just curious what you believe. I have not dismissed preterism as being possible since there is good evidence for it. It just leaves me wondering... if all of that already happened then what are we doing now?

I have not said that Satan's fall like lightening took place "at or before the crucifixion". It took place when Satan was cast out of heaven after the newly-resurrected Christ had ascended to heaven on His resurrection day. Once Christ was anointed by God as our Great High Priest that morning, and Christ's blood sacrifice was accepted by God on heaven's mercy seat, the legal terms of our salvation were accomplished (the "NOW has come salvation" fulfillment in Rev. 12:10). Christ's actions on our behalf legally annulled the power Satan had to accuse the brethren before God because our vicarious righteousness as children of God had been secured by the blood of the Lamb.

As for the "what are we doing now?" question...

I believe humanity is currently sitting on the timeline about 9 years from the transition in 2033 over to the next 7th millennium period of the world's history. I call that transition "God's Y2K", because 2033 will mark 2,000 years since the ending of the 4th millennium of human history back in AD 33 (which AD 33 year was the ending point of the Rev. 20 millennium).

The entire Satanic realm was shaken, destroyed, and "removed" from this world back in AD 70 (as in Hebrews 12:26-27), so humanity has had plenty of opportunity to show just how wickedly natural mankind can behave, even without the presence of the Satanic realm during these New Covenant ages. In spite of this, God's Spirit has continued to steadily increase the numbers of believers coming into the kingdom of God. This increase was promised with the leaven parable, the mustard seed growth, and the growth of the "stone" kingdom of Daniel 2 which will eventually fill the whole earth with its influence. "Of the increase of His government and of His peace there shall be no end." This is a promise we can stake our lives upon.

At the close of the 7th millennium (in 3033), Christ will return yet again for a final judgment and a resurrection for all His saints that will have died since the last AD 70 bodily resurrection for the saints. I, along with the rest of those believers who will have died since then, will be waiting for my mortal remains to be "changed" on that day to an incorruptible and immortal body that will be like that of Christ's.

 

[The Learner]

rth

 

[Berean]

a few...

John Calvin
Mary Baker Eddy
Joseph Smith
All the Popes
Charles Taze Russell
Bahá'u'lláh
The NIV
Valentinus
Jerome
Dallas Jenkins (suspected)

and what exactly did these "few" say and do that identifies them as "false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ?"

 

[face2face]

Thanks for sharing your opinion. So what verses demonstrate that Satan has fell like lightning already as opposed to what I have provided that demonstrates he hasn't fell like lightning yet?

It's truth Runningman and you can run from truth!

 

[face2face]

Thanks for sharing your opinion. So what verses demonstrate that Satan has fell like lightning already as opposed to what I have provided that demonstrates he hasn't fell like lightning yet?

I'm thinking you dont understand what a simile is...am I right? If you do show how it is used in Luke 10:18.

F2F

 

[The Learner]

rth

 

[Behold]

and what exactly did these "few" say and do that identifies them as "false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ?"

Mary Baker Eddy and Valentinus say that "sin does not exist" so that denies The Cross of Christ, and 1 John 1:9

Calvin says that God chooses you not to believe in Jesus and then sends you to hell for "unbelief', so, that's Theological Insanity that also denies the Cross., so that is Dallas Jenkins theology.

Jerome created the idea that you are born again by Water, and not by the Holy Spirit. (Baptismal Regeneration) so, that is utter blasphemy.

Joseph Smith ... well you just have to read the Book of Mormon and find out about Moroni..

The others are just man-man doctrines that have no use for John 14:6

 

[Runningman]

It's truth Runningman and you can run from truth!

I'm thinking you dont understand what a simile is...am I right? If you do show how it is used in Luke 10:18.

F2F

No, that was your commentary about things you said I did and then you assigned them to me. I believe you have misunderstood what I have originally wrote if you feel that what you have assigned to me is "truth."

You didn't actually address the topic either. So let's start again. Jesus said Satan fell, you say Jesus saw it in the present tense. Then later there are examples of Satan having not fell. Do you think there is a particular sense in which Satan fell?

 

[Runningman]

I have not said that Satan's fall like lightening took place "at or before the crucifixion". It took place when Satan was cast out of heaven after the newly-resurrected Christ had ascended to heaven on His resurrection day. Once Christ was anointed by God as our Great High Priest that morning, and Christ's blood sacrifice was accepted by God on heaven's mercy seat, the legal terms of our salvation were accomplished (the "NOW has come salvation" fulfillment in Rev. 12:10). Christ's actions on our behalf legally annulled the power Satan had to accuse the brethren before God because our vicarious righteousness as children of God had been secured by the blood of the Lamb.

As for the "what are we doing now?" question...

I believe humanity is currently sitting on the timeline about 9 years from the transition in 2033 over to the next 7th millennium period of the world's history. I call that transition "God's Y2K", because 2033 will mark 2,000 years since the ending of the 4th millennium of human history back in AD 33 (which AD 33 year was the ending point of the Rev. 20 millennium).

The entire Satanic realm was shaken, destroyed, and "removed" from this world back in AD 70 (as in Hebrews 12:26-27), so humanity has had plenty of opportunity to show just how wickedly natural mankind can behave, even without the presence of the Satanic realm during these New Covenant ages. In spite of this, God's Spirit has continued to steadily increase the numbers of believers coming into the kingdom of God. This increase was promised with the leaven parable, the mustard seed growth, and the growth of the "stone" kingdom of Daniel 2 which will eventually fill the whole earth with its influence. "Of the increase of His government and of His peace there shall be no end." This is a promise we can stake our lives upon.

At the close of the 7th millennium (in 3033), Christ will return yet again for a final judgment and a resurrection for all His saints that will have died since the last AD 70 bodily resurrection for the saints. I, along with the rest of those believers who will have died since then, will be waiting for my mortal remains to be "changed" on that day to an incorruptible and immortal body that will be like that of Christ's.

Okay I think I understand what you're saying now. I, too, see Jesus' vision as prophetic and not something that had literally happened in real time at the moment he said it. So in what ways are humans demonstrably different in the present after the "entire Satanic realm was shaken, destroyed, and "removed" from this world back in AD 70?"

If the demonic influence is gone then why is it that things are worse? What about all of the examples of the entire Satanic realm not being destroyed after Jesus was taken to heaven? Didn't they continue to speak of forces of evil as an ever present threat? Think Ephesians 6:12.

 

[Berean]

Mary Baker Eddy and Valentinus say that "sin does not exist" so that denies The Cross of Christ, and 1 John 1:9

Calvin says that God chooses you not to believe in Jesus and then sends you to hell for "unbelief', so, that's Theological Insanity that also denies the Cross., so that is Dallas Jenkins theology.

Jerome created the idea that you are born again by Water, and not by the Holy Spirit. (Baptismal Regeneration) so, that is utter blasphemy.

Joseph Smith ... well you just have to read the Book of Mormon and find out about Moroni..

The others are just man-man doctrines that have no use for John 14:6

You may be right, but in a court of law, that wouldn't hold up. References, and no, pointing to Wikipedia doesn't count.

 

[Behold]

You may be right, but in a court of law, that wouldn't hold up.

The truth will hold up.
No worries.

And all on that list, lied, deceived, and knew it.


Jerome for Example.... He just recreated the NT, at will, and this Infuriated Martin Luther, who was a Translator and read Jerome's "scripture twisting" mistranslations..... and that is one of the reasons that ML left the "cult of the Virgin".

Are you a Catholic?
If so, the reason you are doing "penance", is because JEROME mistranslated (on purpose) REPENTANCE, as "penance" and Catholics have been doing it ever since. @Berean

 

[3 Resurrections]

Okay I think I understand what you're saying now. I, too, see Jesus' vision as prophetic and not something that had literally happened in real time at the moment he said it. So in what ways are humans demonstrably different in the present after the "entire Satanic realm was shaken, destroyed, and "removed" from this world back in AD 70?"

If the demonic influence is gone then why is it that things are worse? What about all of the examples of the entire Satanic realm not being destroyed after Jesus was taken to heaven? Didn't they continue to speak of forces of evil as an ever present threat? Think Ephesians 6:12.

Jesus's vision of Satan falling like lightning was indeed prophetic, but it was a prophecy to be fulfilled very, very soon in His disciples' near future on Jesus's resurrection-day ascension.

This same kind of prophetic language was used in the OT when the prophet Micaiah said, "I saw all Israel scattered on the hills as sheep without a shepherd..." (1 Kings 22:17). This prophecy was fulfilled soon after in 1 Kings 22:29-36 during the battle of Jehoshaphat and the king of Israel against the Syrian king. The language is presented as already being fulfilled to underscore the absolute certain fulfillment of that coming catastrophe, even though it would be only a short time later when it would be fulfilled in real time. It was the same with Christ saying "I saw Satan as lightning fall from heaven..." because Satan most certainly would be cast out of heaven in the near future.

You ask why things appear to be worse if the demonic influence in gone. This may be due to one's focus on only a small segment of the chronological timeline. We know that the overall trajectory of the increase of God's kingdom in this world is only going to climb steadily upward. We have Christ's and God's promises for this upward trend in scripture. This increase of God's kingdom in this world will not be deterred by persecution or opposition to God by the natural man. In fact, persecution and opposition in general serve to bolster true faith and courage in the believer; the whole "blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" thing.

Having the Satanic realm completely shaken, destroyed, and removed from this planet back in AD 70 has not changed the nature of fallen mankind. Fallen humanity's hearts are no different either with or without Satan and his devils existing on this planet. Having the Satanic realm absent from this planet since AD 70 has only served to prove that the fallen nature of mankind is equally and inherently capable of evil all on its own. Rebellion against God is the same kind of offense whether it emerges from angelic creatures or human creatures. But as I wrote earlier, our rebellion against God is much more egregious than any angelic rebellious acts ever were, because mankind sins against grace extended to the human race in the person of Jesus Christ.

You asked about Ephesian 6:12 where Paul wrote about wrestling not against flesh and blood, but against spiritual wickedness in high places. That was definitely true for that "short time" of Satan's renewed deception of the nations during that first century after AD 33. An enraged Satan was operating in full fury at that time, knowing that he didn't have very long to exist after AD 33. The millennium binding of Satan's deception had just ended by then, and God allowed Satan one last "short time" period to do his worst. This was intentional, and worked to serve God's purposes of judgment at that point in time.

Ephesians 6:12 and the saints "wrestling" against those Satanic forces applied to a certain time period - a time period that has long since expired since AD 70.