Lucifer AKA Satan

[face2face]

Do you think Jesus could have been speaking of a vision with his words in Luke 10:18. Because it seems he is speaking in the present tense, but Revelation 12 says the war in heaven and the casting of the devil down to earth doesn't happen until before the beginning of the great tribulation. So if Jesus actually saw that the the great tribulation already happened. If Jesus had a prophetic vision then Satan doesn't seem to have actually fallen like lightning yet. Curious on yours or anyone's thoughts about this.

Keep in mind Runningman, Heaven is not God's Realm here but the political heavens...this is where many Christians get lost.

Here allow me to show you.

Let's assume your theory of a literal "war in heaven," is to take place. But if the term "heaven" is to be applied literally in v. 7, it must be similarly applied in v1, which states that the woman gives birth to her son "in heaven."

See your problem?

Obviously this cannot relate to the atmospheric heavens above and must apply to the political "heaven" on earth.

Once you are armed with understanding the prophecy and its symbols you can then make sense of what is being played out in Chapter 12.

If you have a futurist view of the Apocalypse you are instantly in the dark as to its meaning. The book of Daniel is the key to unlocking this wonderful work.

F2F

 

[face2face]

Do you think Jesus could have been speaking of a vision with his words in Luke 10:18.

No, the Master was impressed how the 70 disciples were able to combat the terrible deceitful ways of the Pharisees and when news had come back that their efforts had failed to stop them preaching and healing he used the simile to describe their fall.

As a helpful tip for you when reading the Bible make sure you look for insights which the Lord gives when teaching.

You will see in verse 19 the Master informs you who it is he is speaking of!

Look, I have given you authority to tread on snakes and scorpions and on the full force of the enemy Lk 10:19.

Offspring of vipers! How are you able to say anything good, since you are evil? For the mouth speaks from what fills the heart. Mt 12:34.

It is incredible how Christians run away from the Word of God to Mythology and Mysticism when the answers are staring at them in their face.

F2F

 

[The Learner]

Thanks for this list Learner.

We have already dealt with many of the quotes referenced, but this one is interesting.

Who is the Adversary (satan) ?

Context:

For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ 2 Co 11:13.

So the adversary here is a person that much is true, but who?

Rather than giving you the answer I will provide some helpful insights

Who were undermining the apostle Paul's influence in the Corinthian ecclesia? See 2 Cor 10:2, 10-18; 11:3-26

Answer here: ______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Yes Paul speaks of people and uses Satan as a true illustration friend. :cool:

 

[The Learner]

Ezekiel 36

Easy-to-Read Version

​

The Land of Israel Will Be Rebuilt​

36 “Son of man,[a] speak to the mountains of Israel for me. Tell them to listen to the word of the Lord! 2 Tell them that this is what the Lord God says: ‘The enemy said bad things against you. They said, Hurray! Now the ancient mountains[b] will be ours!’
3 “So speak to the mountains of Israel for me. Tell them that this is what the Lord God says: ‘The enemy destroyed your cities and attacked you from every direction. They did this so that you would belong to the other nations. Then people talked and whispered about you.’”
4 So, mountains of Israel, listen to the word of the Lord God! This is what the Lord God says to the mountains, hills, streams, valleys, empty ruins, and abandoned cities that have been looted and laughed at by the other nations around them. 5 The Lord God says, “I swear, I will let my strong feelings speak for me! I will let Edom and the other nations feel my anger. They took my land for themselves. They really had a good time when they showed how much they hated this land. They took the land for themselves, just so they could destroy it.”
6 “So say these things about the land of Israel. Speak to the mountains and to the hills, to the streams, and to the valleys. Tell them that this is what the Lord God says: ‘I will let my strong feelings and anger speak for me, because you had to suffer the insults from those nations.’”
7 So this is what the Lord God says: “I am the one making this promise! I swear that the nations around you will have to suffer for those insults.
8 “But mountains of Israel, you will grow new trees and produce fruit for my people Israel. My people will soon come back. 9 I am with you, and I will help you. People will till your soil and plant seeds in you. 10 There will be many people living on you. The whole family of Israel—all of them—will live there. The cities will have people living in them. The destroyed places will be rebuilt. 11 I will give you many people and animals, and they will grow and have many children. I will bring people to live on you as in the past. I will make it better for you than before. Then you will know that I am the Lord. 12 Yes, I will lead many people—my people, Israel—to your land. You will be their property, and you will not take away their children again.”
13 This is what the Lord God says: “Land of Israel, people say bad things to you. They say you destroyed your people. They say you took the children away from your people. 14 But you will not destroy people anymore or take away their children again.” This is what the Lord God said. 15 “I will not let those other nations insult you anymore. You will not be hurt by them anymore. You will not take the children away from your people again.” This is what the Lord God said.

The Lord Will Protect His Name​

16 Then the word of the Lord came to me. He said, 17 “Son of man, the family of Israel lived in their own country, but they made that land filthy by the bad things they did. To me, they were like a woman who becomes unclean because of her monthly time of bleeding. 18 They spilled blood on the ground when they murdered people in the land. They made the land filthy with their idols, so I showed them how angry I was. 19 I scattered them among the nations and spread them through all the lands. I gave them the punishment they deserved for the bad things they did. 20 But even in those other nations, they ruined my good name. How? Those nations said, ‘These are the Lord’s people, but they left his land.’
21 “The people of Israel ruined my holy name wherever they went, and I felt sorry for my name. 22 So tell the family of Israel that this is what the Lord God says: ‘Family of Israel, you ruined my holy name in the places where you went. I am going to do something to stop this. I will not do it for your sake, Israel. I will do it for my holy name. 23 I will show the nations how holy my great name really is. You ruined my good name in those nations! But I will show you that I am holy. I will make you respect my name, and then those nations will know that I am the Lord.’” This is what the Lord God said.
24 “I will take you out of those nations, gather you together, and bring you back to your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle pure water on you and make you pure. I will wash away all your filth, the filth from those nasty idols, and I will make you pure. 26 I will also put a new spirit in you to change your way of thinking. I will take out the heart of stone from your body and give you a tender, human heart. 27 I will put my Spirit inside you[c] and change you so that you will obey my laws. You will carefully obey my commands. 28 Then you will live in the land that I gave to your ancestors. You will be my people, and I will be your God. 29 Also, I will save you and keep you from becoming unclean. I will command the grain to grow. I will not bring a famine against you. 30 I will give you large crops of fruit from your trees and the harvest from your fields so that you will never again feel the shame of being hungry in a foreign country. 31 You will remember the bad things you did. You will remember that those things were not good. Then you will hate yourselves because of your sins and the terrible things you did.”
32 The Lord God says, “I want you to remember this: I am not doing these things for your good! I am doing them for my good name. Family of Israel, you should be ashamed and embarrassed about the way you lived!”
33 This is what the Lord God says: “On the day that I wash away your sins, I will bring people back to your cities. The ruined cities will be rebuilt. 34 People will begin again to work the land so when other people pass by they will not see ruins anymore. 35 They will say, ‘In the past, this land was ruined, but now it is like the Garden of Eden. The cities were destroyed. They were ruined and empty, but now they are protected, and there are people living in them.’
36 “Then the nations that are still around you will know I am the Lord and that I rebuilt those places. I planted things in this land that was empty. I am the Lord. I said this, and I will make them happen!”
37 This is what the Lord God says: “I will also let the family of Israel come to me and ask me to do these things for them. I will make them grow and become many people. They will be like flocks of sheep. 38 During the special festivals, Jerusalem was filled with flocks of sheep and goats that had been made holy. In the same way the cities and ruined places will be filled with flocks of people. Then they will know that I am the Lord.”

Footnotes​

1. Ezekiel 36:1 Son of man This was usually just a way of saying “a person” or “a human being.” Here, it is a way of addressing Ezekiel. Also in verse 17.
2. Ezekiel 36:2 mountains Literally, “high places,” usually a reference to places of worship. See “high place” in the Word List.
3. Ezekiel 36:27 I will put my Spirit inside you Or “I will make my Spirit live among you.”

 

[The Learner]

Another interesting observation about Ezekiel 28 is how it relates to Nebuchadnezzar who also thought of himself as greater than God. He saw himself as the maker of Babylon – Dan 4:30 - and so he was punished for that! Likewise the king of Tyre is seen in the same way, and so is punished. In fact, the Prince of Tyre went a lot further than Neb! This man claimed divinity!

“I am a god; I sit in the seat of gods, in the heart of the seas”— Eze 28:2.

God could not allow such pride and arrogance to go unpunished and while Neb will eat grass like an animal the Prince's life would be taken.

The Divine Lamentation is crafted in verses 11-19 to show Israel what God was about to do and why.

As usual, only those with enlightened minds could decepher the lamentation and once completed they would know this was the Lord's doing.

F2F

Ezekiel 28

Easy-to-Read Version

​

Tyre Thinks It Is Like a God​

28 The word of the Lord came to me. He said, 2 “Son of man,[a] say to the ruler of Tyre, ‘This is what the Lord God says:
“‘You are very proud!
And you say, “I am a god!
I sit on the seat of gods
in the middle of the seas.”
“‘But you are a man and not God!
You only think you are a god.
3 You think you are wiser than Daniel[b]
and no secret is hidden from you.
4 Through your wisdom and understanding
you have gotten riches for yourself.
And you put gold and silver
in your treasuries.
5 Through your great wisdom and trade,
you have made your riches grow.
And now you are proud
because of those riches.
6 “‘So this is what the Lord God says:
Tyre, you thought you were like a god.
7 I will bring strangers to fight against you.
They are most terrible among the nations!
They will pull out their swords
and use them against the beautiful things your wisdom brought you.
They will ruin your glory.
8 They will bring you down to the grave.
You will be like a sailor who died at sea.
9 That person will kill you.
Will you still say, “I am a god”?
No, he will have you in his power!
You will see that you are a man, not God!
10 Strangers will treat you like a foreigner[c] and kill you,
because I gave the command!’”
This is what the Lord God said.
11 The word of the Lord came to me. He said, 12 “Son of man, sing this sad song about the king of Tyre. Say to him, ‘This is what the Lord God says:
“‘You were the perfect man—
so full of wisdom and perfectly handsome.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God.
You had every precious stone—
rubies, topaz, and diamonds,
beryls, onyx, and jasper,
sapphires, turquoise, and emeralds.
And each of these stones was set in gold.
You were given this beauty on the day you were created.
God made you strong.
14 You were one of the chosen Cherubs
who spread your wings over my throne.
I put you on the holy mountain of God.
You walked among the jewels that sparkled like fire.
15 You were good and honest when I created you,
but then you became evil.
16 Your business brought you many riches.
But they also put cruelty inside you, and you sinned.
So I treated you like something unclean
and threw you off the mountain of God.
You were one of the chosen Cherubs
who spread your wings over my throne.
But I forced you to leave the jewels
that sparkled like fire.
17 Your beauty made you proud.
Your glory ruined your wisdom.
So I threw you down to the ground,
and now other kings stare at you.
18 You did many wrong things.
You were a very crooked merchant.
In this way you made the holy places unclean.
So I brought fire from inside you.
It burned you!
You burned to ashes on the ground.
Now everyone can see your shame.
19 “‘All the people in other nations
were shocked about what happened to you.
What happened to you will make people very afraid.
You are finished!’”

 

[The Learner]

Keep in mind Runningman, Heaven is not God's Realm here but the political heavens...this is where many Christians get lost.

Here allow me to show you.

Let's assume your theory of a literal "war in heaven," is to take place. But if the term "heaven" is to be applied literally in v. 7, it must be similarly applied in v1, which states that the woman gives birth to her son "in heaven."

See your problem?

Obviously this cannot relate to the atmospheric heavens above and must apply to the political "heaven" on earth.

Once you are armed with understanding the prophecy and its symbols you can then make sense of what is being played out in Chapter 12.

If you have a futurist view of the Apocalypse you are instantly in the dark as to its meaning. The book of Daniel is the key to unlocking this wonderful work.

F2F

a little hummor

 

[The Learner]

not sure what to make of this one????

 

[face2face]

Yes Paul speaks of people and uses Satan as a true illustration friend. :cool:

You just need to find how the writer is using the word "adversary" and if you are genuine in your need to find truth it will be revealed
F2F

 

[face2face]

a little hummor
View attachment 46569View attachment 46570View attachment 46571View attachment 46572View attachment 46573View attachment 46574

Another human invention is wings on angels as is angels that sin! It's amazing how man has this need to tamper with God's Word.
F2F

 

[rockytopva]

If E = mc2 then we can divide and conclude that...

Mass (m) = Energy (E/c2) --- Making this eternal stuff

And there are three varieties...

Natural E/c2 - All mass is basically cooled plasma --- And bang! Back to plasma!
Mental E/c2 - Mentally, A mathematical formula, and a mind to study these things
Spiritual E/c2 - E (motivation, warmth, love) / c2 (faith, hope, charity, joy)

There could have been trillions of big bangs throughout eternity for all we know. I believe the big bang as we know it was in response to heavenly activities instigated by an angel we know as Lucifer, whose name means, "light-bearer" - shining one, morning star, Lucifer - hêylêl, hay-lale'; from Strongs H1984 (in the sense of brightness); the morning-star:—Lucifer.

It appears that Lucifer was once a created being of beauty, intelligence, and power. Having developed an incredible self image he thought to exalt his thrown to even greater heights...

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. - Isaiah 14

As far as the timing I believe that the fall of Lucifer taking a third of the angels with him instigated the big bang...

And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. - Genesis 1
And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. - Revelation 12:3-4

I believe Lucifer knew all along that there was one who would take his place, Jesus Christ our Lord. And that he was preparing an assembly would would rule in his stead. There was an event afterwards in which I would call "The Big Bang" in which mass turned to plasma energy and spread out from a point of origin. What we would measure as trillions of years could have passed until God placed the planet earth into such an orbit that he could call the light day and the darkness night, making the first day of creation. The timing between the big bang and the first day may seem very long. But in eternal measurements very quick.

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. - 2 Peter 3:8

As far as the ending I would think that Isaac Newton was closest to the truth.... From a folio cataloged as Yahuda MS 7.3g, f. 13v:

"So then the time times & half a time are 42 months or 1260 days or three years & an half, reckoning twelve months to a year & 30 days to a month as was done in the Calendar of the primitive year. And the days of short lived Beasts being put for the years of lived kingdoms, the period of 1260 days, if dated from the complete conquest of the three kings A.C. 800, will end A.C. 2060." - Isaac Newton

 

[rockytopva]

With a thousand years of peace predicted we will have yet another big bang afterwards in which the mass will return to plasma energy in which God will do something else with it.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. - 2 Peter 3:10

 

[rockytopva]

In reading the Book of Job God had issue most of Job uttering things he knew not...

1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? - Job 38

So hopefully I will have enough humility to admit this is the closest as I can imagine it. Also interesting even in tunnel drilling the workers would find many things unexpected...

Eisenhower Tunnel - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[face2face]

If E = mc2 then we can divide and conclude that...

Mass (m) = Energy (E/c2) --- Making this eternal stuff

I thought you posted your science home work for a moment there.

And there are three varieties...

Natural E/c2 - All mass is basically cooled plasma --- And bang! Back to plasma!
Mental E/c2 - Mentally, A mathematical formula, and a mind to study these things
Spiritual E/c2 - E (motivation, warmth, love) / c2 (faith, hope, charity, joy)

Are you feeling alright?

There could have been trillions of big bangs throughout eternity for all we know. I believe the big bang as we know it was in response to heavenly activities instigated by an angel we know as Lucifer, whose name means, "light-bearer" - shining one, morning star, Lucifer - hêylêl, hay-lale'; from Strongs H1984 (in the sense of brightness); the morning-star:—Lucifer.

There is no angel named Lucifer... only the person the name represents lol.

It appears that Lucifer was once a created being of beauty, intelligence, and power. Having developed an incredible self image he thought to exalt his thrown to even greater heights...

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. - Isaiah 14

Okay so you have left Ezekiel 28 and for good reason and now you want me to explain Isaiah 14 in context?

As far as the timing I believe that the fall of Lucifer taking a third of the angels with him instigated the big bang...

Yes, your post is high on entertainment value but we are having a Bible based discussion here.

If you want to know the meaning of Isaiah's prophecy, simply ask...no need for Einstein or Sir Isaac Newton to enter the room!

F2F

 

[rockytopva]

My references... H1966 - hêlēl - Strong's Hebrew Lexicon (kjv)

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

not sure what to make of this one????
View attachment 46575

Yuck

 

[Runningman]

No, the Master was impressed how the 70 disciples were able to combat the terrible deceitful ways of the Pharisees and when news had come back that their efforts had failed to stop them preaching and healing he used the simile to describe their fall.

As a helpful tip for you when reading the Bible make sure you look for insights which the Lord gives when teaching.

You will see in verse 19 the Master informs you who it is he is speaking of!

Look, I have given you authority to tread on snakes and scorpions and on the full force of the enemy Lk 10:19.

Offspring of vipers! How are you able to say anything good, since you are evil? For the mouth speaks from what fills the heart. Mt 12:34.

It is incredible how Christians run away from the Word of God to Mythology and Mysticism when the answers are staring at them in their face.

F2F

I disagree because for what you're saying to be true would require an adherence to full or partial preterism to be accurate. I personally am a futurist. The falling of Satan like lightning doesn't happen until a future time. Revelation 12 places this before the great tribulation.

This is what Paul said decades after the ascension of Jesus. That spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms are still a threat.

Ephesians 6
12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this world’s darkness, and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

 

[3 Resurrections]

The falling of Satan like lightning doesn't happen until a future time. Revelation 12 places this before the great tribulation.

This is what Paul said decades after the ascension of Jesus. That spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms are still a threat.

The falling of Satan like lightning happened at Christ's ascension on the morning after His resurrection. Because of this, the loud voice in heaven declared at that time, "NOW is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night." (Rev. 12:10). This victory in heaven over Satan and his devils when they were all cast out was accomplished by virtue of the "blood of the Lamb" (Rev. 12:11). This sacrificial blood had just been offered to God by the ascended Christ in heaven on behalf of the saints, thus granting them Christ's righteousness vicariously in God's eyes. It made the legal terms of the saints' salvation secure for all time.

If this fall from heaven for Satan and his angels were in our future, then the terms of our salvation have NOT YET been secured legally. But yes, this fall from heaven for Satan and his devils most definitely did take place before the great tribulation, as you wrote above.

That casting out of Satan and his devils that morning after Christ's resurrection had inaugurated the "short time" of Satan's renewed deception of the nations after AD 33 (Rev. 12:12) and his angry warfare against the remnant of the woman's seed. The Apostles' NT writings about Satan's very active role of deception and persecution of the believers in those first-century days was proof that this was a very real threat in those days for that "short time" that Satan had left on this planet.

But that "short time" in the first century that Satan had left to operate in this world expired long ago. It has not extended some 2,000 years and counting, since that would make the definition of a "short time" a meaningless statement.

 

[Behold]

You have the right idea...but you failed to search the Scriptures to find Paul's adversary.

I have Threads that deal with "Satan", both historically and spiritually, and biblically.

I also have Threads that deal with Satan's Ministers, and how to "Spot them".

However, My previous conversation here, on this Thread... was related to Satan's Ministers, and Theology.

 

[The Learner]

New #119
Amos 6:10e

"We must not mention the name of the Lord.”

ASV "we may not make mention of the name of Jehovah."

CEB
"We mustn’t mention the name of the Lord.”

DARBY
we may not make mention of Jehovah's name.
CJB "we mustn’t mention the name of Adonai.”

NWT For it is not the time to make any mention of the name of Jehovah.’”
adds words not in the Hebrew to avoid this command!!! lol

 

[face2face]

I disagree because for what you're saying to be true would require an adherence to full or partial preterism to be accurate. I personally am a futurist.

Did you realize what you did there? You left Luke 10:18 and went off to speak of another issue entirely unrelated to the discussion thread!

It's such a common thing to do when one is not comfortable with entering the text.

The falling of Satan like lightning doesn't happen until a future time. Revelation 12 places this before the great tribulation.

Luke 10:18 has absolutely nothing to do with what you are saying here - nothing at all!

This is what Paul said decades after the ascension of Jesus. That spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms are still a threat.

Ephesians 6
12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this world’s darkness, and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

So lets recap on what you have done.

1. You left Luke 10:18 and its context to discuss your interpretation method for the Revelation
2. You jumped to the highly symbolic Revelation 12 which has absolutely nothing to do with Luke 10:18 and its context regarding the successful preaching work of the 70.
3. You then jump to Ephesians 6:12 which is talking about the religious elite at that time who continue to persecute the believers as they had done so of Christ.

If I don't inform you of this maybe no-one will but this method of Bible Reading and Study offers you no value whatsoever.

It's like shifting sands - when you foundation is removed in Luke 10:18 you move to another location where the foundations fast erode from under your feet.

You will never come to a knowledge of truth doing this.

F2F