False Doctrine of the "Secret Rapture".

[Davy]

You have multiple times been given Scriptural references, and Express Identified Scriptural Quotes regarding this topic, and still fail at understanding….as the Lord warned would be the case for naysayers.

No, I have not been given Scripture proof of a pre-trib rapture theory. You just saying I have does not make it so.

Any Scripture you do... 'try' to use for supporting a pre-trib rapture, I can easily show how it's not about a pre-trib rapture, even as I did with my previous post from your little slice'n'dice of 1 Thessalonians 5:9 by Apostle Paul where you are wrongly taught to take it out of the context of what Paul was covering there about the "sudden destruction" on the "day of the Lord".

Mark 4: (to you)
[12] That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

And the above verse supports a pre-trib rapture where? Nothing there about a pre-trib rapture at all! All you are trying to do is throw darts out of anger. Don't be angry at me because you cannot prove a pre-trib rapture theory from Bible Scripture.

I'll tell you what that Mark 4:12 verse is about. But I actually prefer the Matthew 13 version of that where Jesus gives more detail about it...

Matt 13:10-16
10 And the disciples came, and said unto Him, "Why speakest Thou unto them in parables?"

Christ's disciples asked Him why He spoke to the multitudes in parables?

11 He answered and said unto them, "Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
KJV

Jesus gave His disciples to understand the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but for the multitudes, "to them it is not given". And Jesus even pointed to the original prophecy about that first written in the Book of Isaiah. Do you know where that was written in Isaiah? Had you even read it?

God's Word when the subject context is kept as written is wonderful, and just cannot compare with those who slice'n'dice it to try and make it say something else per man's vain doctrines.

 

[Davy]

Not my “ideas”… rather my TRUST in the Lords Word and Way and Order.

I realize the false pre-trib rapture theory is not your original idea. Nor can you say it's in The Lord's Word, because you have not shown any Bible Scripture that supports such a theory as a pre-trib rapture. So really, you are NOT trusting in The Lord's Word with that pre-trib rapture idea you got from men, and not from God.

Evidence IN Scripture…

For 7 days before the first Rain Drop Fell, Noah +7 were inside of the ark.

Noah +7 were Saved. Noah + 7 did not experience death. The rest of the entire World’s occupants were Not Saved….died!

We've already been over your attempt to use the flood of Noah as proof of a pre-trib rapture. Noah's ark DID NOT LEAVE THE EARTH like what the false pre-trib rapture teaches.

So I'll say it again, Noah's ark was atop the height of the flood waters (which were on the earth), for 150 days as written in Genesis 7:24. That means 150 days from the time when it stopped raining and the flood reached its peak to the time when the waters started receding. That would represent the time of "great tribulation" at the end which has been shortened by Jesus to "five months" per Rev.9.

That means, Noah and his WENT THROUGH THE FLOOD, and were PROTECTED BY GOD, WITH GOD HAVING SEALED THEM IN THE ARK. For the END Jesus Christ is our ARK of PROTECTION, and we are to be SEALED with God's Seal for the end by The Holy Spirit so as to make a stand for Christ through it.

 

[Davy]

Just since YOU DO NOT KNOW….
EARTH IS……..DRY LAND!

The ARK was LIFTED UP ABOVE THE EARTH.
The ARK WAS LIFTED UP ABOVE THE MOUNTAINS TOPS. <—> EARTH!
ON THE MOUNTAIN TOPS IS HOLY

B-CAUSE, YOU DO NOT KNOW…
Mountain tops “IN THE CLOUDS” is holy GROUND. <—> EARTH.
IN The Clouds “IS” HOLY SPACE of the Lower Heavens.

That's truly funny! Noah's ark was on the waters of the flood and to you that means the ark was up in the SKY OFF THE EARTH??? When you first heard that baloney by your preachers you should have walked out of that place immediately.

The Spirit of God that which Resides “IN” the forgiven, the soul restored, the spirit quickened, ARE summoned, AND SHALL RISE UP TO THE CLOUDS…ABOVE THE EARTH….same as in Noah’s (+7 others) Day…
BEFORE Tribulations, Wrath, Destruction IS SENT DOWN FROM God IN High Heaven.

Scripture?
You have none, instead just some made 'story' by those pre-trib rapture men you listen to.

Be SURE to TELL tell Lord … at your Judgement Day … What a waste of His Breath to preach and remind people of Noah’s day, and the similitudes of Gods prophecy of another World Catastrophic Event.

So now... you're turning to VAIN THREATS.

Well why don't you just break down and cry! since you have shown NO SCRIPTURE proof to support your fake pre-trib rapture belief? You might as well be beating against a stone wall with all those false slogans they have given you to replace actual Bible Scripture.

The “woman” you mention IS NOT ….
Christ’s Church.

The “woman” you mention IS….
NATIONS of men and their kings AGAINST God!

I realize you don't really know that much of God's Word, otherwise you would have read the following in Rev.12 about the symbolic "woman" there in the final verse...

Rev 12:15-17
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
KJV

The symbolic "woman" in the first part of that Rev.12 chapter is about Israel. But this last section of verses when that "serpent" (Satan) pushes that symbolic "water as a flood" at the "woman", that latter "woman" represents Christ's Church at the end.

So why didn't you notice about that latter "woman" that "have the testimony of Jesus Christ"?? That is... Christ's Church, and that above Scripture shows they go through... the serpent's water as a flood out of his mouth. What comes out of the mouth anyway? Words, and in Satan's case, it means LIES to cause DECEPTION. And that is what man's false pre-trib rapture is designed to do, to make you fly away to the first supernatural Messiah that appears on earth at the end, which will be a fake.

 

[The Light]

I realize you don't really know that much of God's Word,

I have found the same for you.

otherwise you would have read the following in Rev.12 about the symbolic "woman" there in the final verse...

Rev 12:15-17
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The Church is already in heaven.........pretrib. The seed of the woman is the 12 tribes across the earth. Since the Church is in heaven there has to be first fruits for the next harvest.

Oh, here they are.

Rev 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Who are these 144,000? Oh look.

Revelation 7
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

KJV

The symbolic "woman" in the first part of that Rev.12 chapter is about Israel. But this last section of verses when that "serpent" (Satan) pushes that symbolic "water as a flood" at the "woman", that latter "woman" represents Christ's Church at the end.

Absolute baloney. The woman is Israel, and her seed is the 12 tribes across the earth.

So why didn't you notice about that latter "woman" that "have the testimony of Jesus Christ"?? That is... Christ's Church, and that above Scripture shows they go through... the serpent's water as a flood out of his mouth. What comes out of the mouth anyway?

The woman does not have the testimony of Jesus Christ. It is her seed that has the testimony. Her seed is the 12 tribes across the earth.

Words, and in Satan's case, it means LIES to cause DECEPTION. And that is what man's false pre-trib rapture is designed to do, to make you fly away to the first supernatural Messiah that appears on earth at the end, which will be a fake.

Totally clueless. You think because you have proof that there is a rapture after the tribulation that it is the Church being raptured. It's not. Those being raptured immediately after the tribulation are the seed of the woman the twelve tribes across the earth.

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Those being raptured immediately after the tribulation are singing the song of Moses.

The foolish virgins do not believe that the Lord is coming in an hour that they think not. When the bridegroom comes, they will not be ready. They truly follow the teachings of unbelieving men.

 

[The Light]

No, I have not been given Scripture proof of a pre-trib rapture theory. You just saying I have does not make it so.

Any Scripture you do... 'try' to use for supporting a pre-trib rapture, I can easily show how it's not about a pre-trib rapture, even as I did with my previous post from your little slice'n'dice of 1 Thessalonians 5:9 by Apostle Paul where you are wrongly taught to take it out of the context of what Paul was covering there about the "sudden destruction" on the "day of the Lord".

And any scripture that you produce that says that the rapture is immediately after the tribulation can be proven to not be the Church that is raptured.

And the above verse supports a pre-trib rapture where? Nothing there about a pre-trib rapture at all! All you are trying to do is throw darts out of anger. Don't be angry at me because you cannot prove a pre-trib rapture theory from Bible Scripture.

I'll tell you what that Mark 4:12 verse is about. But I actually prefer the Matthew 13 version of that where Jesus gives more detail about it...

LOL. You think that is about the pretrib rapture. That's rich

Matt 13:10-16
10 And the disciples came, and said unto Him, "Why speakest Thou unto them in parables?"

Christ's disciples asked Him why He spoke to the multitudes in parables?

11 He answered and said unto them, "Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
KJV

Jesus gave His disciples to understand the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but for the multitudes, "to them it is not given". And Jesus even pointed to the original prophecy about that first written in the Book of Isaiah. Do you know where that was written in Isaiah? Had you even read it?

God's Word when the subject context is kept as written is wonderful, and just cannot compare with those who slice'n'dice it to try and make it say something else per man's vain doctrines.

Maybe you should worry about the doctrines from unbelieving men that did not think God would keep His Word and restore Israel as a nation.

 

[Taken]

But the Prophetic Word does comfort me.

IT Should, but I noticed, the words before 1 Thes 4:18…seemed more of an irritant to you.

1 Thes 4:
[18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

I know the Lord will protect me. if I call upon His Name.

A Few have Already called on His Name, given their Life unto Him, and ARE Sanctified.
Jesus is our EXAMPLE.
He gave His LIFE “ONCE”.
The Same Applies to manKind.

Gods Protection FOR the Already Sanctifi-ED
IS Being Lifted UP OFF the FACE of the EARTH which Gods Tribulations are Destroying the Nations, the People.

People are free to believe anything they like.

Absolutely.

It is beliefs that have no proper Bible support; that they teach and promote, that I object to and refute.

Yes you object.
No you do not refute.

Revelations IS an OVERVIEW of 21 (7 seals, 7 trumps, 7 bowls) SPECIFIC Tribulations, Judgements, God shall Send Down From Heaven UPON the Earth…
Each of the 21 Specific Judgments are for SPECIFIC “unforgiven” anti-godly unrighteousness.

NO WHERE have you “refuted”, and Scripturally SHOWN during the Tribulation sent from God…
Men CONVERTED “IN” Christ ARE Present upon the face of the Earth. (Or what they are supposedly doing).

However the VERY (according to God) Words that SHOULD COMFORT YOU, applies EXPRESSLY to the Converted IN Christ…WHERE “THEY” ARE, and WHAT “THEY” ARE doing….AND IT IS NOT “ON” the EARTH!

The BIG issue is the 'rapture to heaven' of the Church.

Exactly…
However …
* IF you do not KNOW WHO expressly IS the Church,
* HOW (manner) IN which God Protects the Church,
* Where the Church IS while the EARTH is being SENT Tribulations from Heaven,
* Nor Comforted KNOWING WHERE the Church IS,
* Nor KNOW SPECIFICALLY WHERE Heaven IS…

You simply reject that believe, via your own opinion.

Firstly; Jesus said: Take care that you be not deceived…. This infers that it is possible for any Christian to be deceived.

Sure.

The fact of the 2 camps on this issue; for and against, proves that one side must be deceived.

Sure.
* You speak of “Christian”…irrelevant.
* Jesus spoke of Believers.
* Jesus spoke of the CONVERTED.
* Christians are simply Believers IN God, IN Christ Jesus & followers of the Gospel of Jesus Christ…
* ^^ THEY can come and go…Believe, not Believe, Follow, not Follow…(and BTW…many have believed and fell away! )
THEY are the ONES who are WARNED to “endure” to the END…KEEP believing until …
THE END of their physical LIFE!!!

The CONVERTED are a WHOLE DIFFERENT GROUP… THEY have ALREADY given their LIFE (ever hear of CRUCIFIED “WITH” Christ??). They have willingly GIVEN their LIFE unto Death FOR the Lord God…
AND FOR THEIR TRUE Heartful EFFORT…
~ to Call on the Lord
~ Repent for have had NOT believed
~Confess their True Heartful Believe IN God IN the One God Sent….
*** BE their heartful Confession TRUE…
***THEY INSTANTLY BECOME….forgiven, BODY accounted DEAD, soul restored (saved), that it shall forever KEEP it’s Life (Gods Breath) AND their natural spirit (ie truth in their heart), BORN AGAIN BY SEED OF GOD, (that their spirit can NEVER DIE), AND the Spirit of God, DWELL WITH-IN them, and HE PROMISE they will FOREVER BE WITH GOD, and FOREVER God shall BE WITH THEM… DONE DEAL…
AND THESE EXPRESSLY….ARE Christ’s Church…ARE NOT appointed to Wrath…ARE NOT Present UPON the face of the EARTH WHEN Gods sends down from Heaven ….
His Tribulations and Wrath.

THOSE individuals ARE MADE WHOLE…
Body, soul, spirit….there IS NOTHING more FOR THEM TO DO (during Gods Trib., but sit aside with the Lord waiting for God to deal with ALL the others WHO ARE deciding what they shall choose, receive their forgiveness, pardons, be killed, or be killed remaining against God and God continue His destruction upon the earth….

AND JUST WHAT do YOU think the “Converted”…Christ’s Church IS going to be DOING ON THE EARTH? Scripture never REVEALS THEY ARE ON THE EARTH…
Scripture REVEALS they ARE ABOVE the EARTH WITH their Lord.

Those who hold to the 'rapture' theory have to make a lot of assumptions and suppositions to fit it into scripture and because there is no consensus among then as to when it could happen, this alone cast serious doubt on that belief.

That is a load of malarkey. You obviously DO NOT Believe or Understand Where Heaven IS, there is more than one Heaven, What converted means, the difference between WITH and WITHIN Christ, What the Rapture is, Why the Rapture only applies to Christ’s Church, the Converted ARE forgiven, the Converted Are accounted bodily Dead, the Converted are soul restored, the Converted are spirit quickened…
No one can be soul restored, spirit quickened….without having a dead body.

You have No clue WHY the Converted would remain on Earth While God is sending horrific tribulations upon the Earth.

You do not believe Scripture, Why would you possibility think you understand Scripture?

But there more, much more:
1/ Jesus said it was impossible, John 3:13, John 17:15, + [/QUOTE}

John 3:
[13] And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

WHICH Heaven? It’s a mystery to you…thus what you do not KNOW, you can not Understand, and Spiritual Things you TRY to Understand with your Logical thinking Carnal Mind…IS A FAIL…

Spiritual THINGS, REQUIRE a born again spirit and Gods gift of understanding TO Understand SPIRITUAL THINGS…!

The HEAVEN(S)…yes Plural …ARE SPIRITUAL
PLACES FOR Spiritual Beings…

Every SINGLE LIVING HUMAN has a SOUL…and the LIFE IN THAT SOUL…IS Spiritual…(Gods Breath)…

Mean absolutely HAVE been IN the LOWEST Heavens … EVEN Moses climbed to the mountain top to retrieve the 10 Commandments from God……So why did God tell Moses to remove his shoes? Because Moses was standing ON HOLY Ground….Why was the ground ON the mountain top HOLY?….Because even the Heaven reaches down to the mountain tops….How does a man standing on the lower ground SEE Heaven? It is where the clouds are….that a man CAN SEE in the day…
And at night it is where the stars are, beyond the reach of man.
Airplanes are in the (lower heavens) Daily…IN the clouds, IN the air.
And above and beyond the stars is high Heaven….where no man goes.
And above the Heaven OF Heavens IS Gods Estate, where HIS Glory, His Light IS untouchable, unseeable by ALL of His creations.

John 3:
[13] And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

WHO was UP IN the clouds of Heaven ?
Jesus…and who came down….Jesus
WHO was UP IN the clouds of Heaven?
Noah…even so same as Jesus Noah came down.
WHO was UP IN the clouds of Heaven?
Moses…even so same as Jesus Moses came down.

Do you require ? the names of every plane, chopper, rocket pilot, passenger, mountain climber to UNDERSTAND humans HAVE routinely for centuries and decades traveled up in the clouds of the lower heavens….. and go no higher, because there is NO AIR a human requires to breath…AND….they ALL come back DOWN!

2/ We are told many times that we must endure until the end. Matthew 24:13, Revelation 13:10, +

WE? You do not KNOW WHO “WE” is!
THE END? What end?

WE…APPLIES TO: An “UNCONVERTED” Believer.

But you do NOT KNOW WHY.

3/ People do not Return with Jesus. Matthew 16:27, Revelation 19:14

Matt 16: 27 says when the Son of man comes…

And? What does that have to do with the “RAPTURED” being IN THE CLOUDS WITH
the Lord? Nothing.

Are You unaware the Lord God Almighty is omnipresent? Everywhere at once?


Matt 16:
[27] For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

1 Thes 4:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

WE? The Raptured…
WHERE? IN the clouds /air
HOW LONG with the Lord? For ever!

You do not pay attention what is actually being said. God has many names and titles and the names and titles INFORMS you Exactly what He…with that name or title IS DOING.

You blame your lack of knowledge and being precise and understanding on other people whose knowledge, precision and understanding is beyond your measure.

 

[Taken]

Totally clueless. You think because you have proof that there is a rapture after the tribulation that it is the Church being raptured.

RAPTURE…IN Scripture ONLY applies to the Converted IN Christ….ie Christ’s Church.

RESURRECTION…Raising up the bodily dead that they resume bodily living has applied FOR centuries to this day….
THAT IS NOT A RAPTURE.

Departed Living souls (out of dead body’s) has occurred for centuries to this day…
THAT IS NOT A RAPTURE.

Harpazo / Rapio / Rapiemur / Rapture…
All meaning “caught up”.
“Caught up” is mentioned only 4 times in scripture.
Once unassuredly speaking of a man in the third heaven.
Once speaking of something a man heard in paradise.
Once speaking of the Converted IN Christ.
Once speaking of a reference to the Christ child.

What manKIND of being is expressly said he SHALL be “caught up” in the clouds…?
ANSWER…a man converted “IN CHRIST”…

Resurrection is mentioned over 40 times in Scripture.
Men trying to claim there are multiple occasions men are “RAPTURED” during the End of days tribulations sent down from Heaven…is FALSE.

 

[Taken]

No, I have not been given Scripture proof of a pre-trib rapture theory. You just saying I have does not make it so.

I find nothing in Scripture that says …
“Pre-trib rapture theory”.

IF you desire to be ON the Earth in the Day God sends Tribulation and Wrath down from Heaven… whoop whoop for you.

How come you never talk about your purpose and what you shall be doing during that time?

Hummm?

 

[Taken]

That's truly funny! Noah's ark was on the waters of the flood and to you that means the ark was up in the SKY OFF THE EARTH???

The hills and mountain tops were covered with water.

The Ark as on the face of the water…Above the mountains.

LOL…seems you are wholly unaware above the mountain tops…IS the sky!

Gen 7:
[17] And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.

When you first heard that baloney by your preachers you should have walked out of that place immediately.

My teacher is the high priest of God.

Odd you find Gods approved teaching FUNNY and are of the character to attempt to discourage another from believing Gods approved teaching.

God is listening!

Scripture?
You have none, instead just some made 'story' by those pre-trib rapture men you listen to.

Sorry you have failed to comprehend Scripture.

So now... you're turning to VAIN THREATS.

LOL…suggesting you tell your opinions to God is hardly a threat….LOL!

Well why don't you just break down and cry! since you have shown NO SCRIPTURE proof to support your fake pre-trib rapture belief? You might as well be beating against a stone wall with all those false slogans they have given you to replace actual Bible Scripture.

Tsk tsk, your snarky is showing… LOL

 

[Taken]

False Doctrine of the "Secret Rapture".

No such thing as the “Secret Rapture”.

The “catching up” TO the Clouds to meet the Lord in the air….

Applies exclusively to Christ Jesus’ Church members…THEY IN Christ.

Nothing Secret…
They Know WHO they ARE..and WHY.
The Lord KNOWS WHO they ARE…and WHY.

 

[The Light]

Men trying to claim there are multiple occasions men are “RAPTURED” during the End of days tribulations sent down from Heaven…is FALSE.

You are in error. Plain and simple.

The Church will be raptured before the tribulation. You have to believe this as you are pretrib.

But the Word shows there is a rapture immediately AFTER the tribulation. That's a fact. Why do you think all these people post Matthew 24:29-31? This is the gathering from heaven and earth that occurs immediately after the tribulation. That's why they are so confident that they are correct.

However, these are the foolish virgins that don't believe the Word of God that says He will come in an hour that they think not. They think the 144,000 first fruits from the twelve tribes represents the Church. They don't believe the Word of God that says they are from the twelve tribes. They think that they have replaced Israel and are the twelve tribes. This is a man-made doctrine started by unbelieving men who did not believe that God would keep His Word and restore the nation of Israel.

There are two raptures. One pre trib for the Church and then one post trib, which is pre wrath, for the twelve tribes across the earth. Those in the nation of Israel that fled to a place of protection and unbelievers will be the only ones on earth during the Day of the Lord, 1 year of wrath.

 

[Taken]

You are in error. Plain and simple.

Disagree with you.

The Church will be raptured before the tribulation. You have to believe this as you are pretrib.

Yep…I have already testified to that fact.

But the Word shows there is a rapture immediately AFTER the tribulation. That's a fact.

Disagree.

During the “Lambs” wrath…the Lambs 7 Seals Judgements…
* men having become Confessed Believers ARE bodily Killed and souls saved.

The saved souls…WAIT (on earth) for more believers to Confess and become saved.

During the “Devils” wrath…and Gods 7 Trump Judgements…More men (Jews, ISRAEL, Gentiles OF the whole world) become Confessed Believers, their bodies KILLED, their souls saved…and collectively…their Saved souls, rise to Heaven.

It’s a period of time…Men upon the face of the earth are Experiencing…
The Lambs wrath (for unbelief in Him)
(During the Seals judgements.)
The Devils wrath (for unbelief in him).
(during the Trumps judgements.)

Men upon the face of the earth MAKING their last and final effort to CONFESS their BELIEF IN WHO.

The masses believing in the Lord God…ARE (all but a few), Bodily Killed, soul saved, their souls all together rise to heaven. Their dead body’s remain ON EARTH.

The masses REJECTING the Lord God and those IN Allegiance to Satan….REMAIN…bodily alive with their unsaved soul ON EARTH.

Then commences Gods Wrath and 7 bowl Judgements poured out upon the Remaining (anti-Christ/God)….men.

* NOT ONCE ARE the DEAD BODIES of the souls saved During the Tribulation RISEN UP TO HEAVEN!

Their Departed saved souls RISE UP TO HEAVEN.
Their DEAD Bodies REMAIN ON EARTH.
THEIR BODY’S WAIT FOR …
AFTER….Christ Jesus 1,000 yrs reign.
TO BE….Bodily Risen; called (RESURRECTION)…
TO BE….Bodily MADE WHOLE, called
(REDEEMED)….Glorified
TO HAVE…Their Saved soul returned to their Risen Resurrected, Redeemed, Body…(ON Earth) and receive their QUICKENING…Gods Seed, REBIRTH, born Again spirit…that THEY ARE THEN and forever MADE WHOLLY, WHOLE, HOLY….body, soul, spirit.
(And remain ON Earth…)

DIFFERENCE BETWEEN…RAPTURED…which only pertains to Christ’s Church…
IS:…Before the last days Trib.
IS:…While they ARE STILL bodily alive…
IS:…For also they who bodily Died IN Christ
IS:…The Willingly Pledge a Truth to the Lord God…to Give their dead body unto Him, to Confess their True Belief….
IS:….THEIR BODY, is according to Gods order and way…Accepted AS DEAD, Crucified with Jesus….Already GIVEN a “restored” SAVED soul….Already Quickened, having RECEIVED Gods SEED and their born again spirit…
Their “crucified” body IS ALREADY “WASHED” cleansed, in Jesus’ Blood..

WHAT THESE FEW “DID” while ALIVE upon the face of the EARTH….WAS…
According to Gods OFFERING, ORDER and WAY… FOR THEM TO…

Become Forgiven…AND MADE WHOLE…body and soul and spirit!!
(Called a mans Living Sacrifice)….

Before the last days trib, wrath and destruction and suffering SENT DOWN FROM HEAVEN…
THOSE ALREADY…who are “IN Christ”,
WHO ARE ALREADY MADE “new creatures”,
Who ARE ALREADY MADE “whole”,

** HAVE ZERO BUSINESS OR PURPOSE ON EARTH “DURING THE TRIB”
* They are NOT appointed to suffer Wrath.
* They are NOT hanging out Deciding to Confess Belief.
* They are NOT traveling about PREACHING the Gospel. (God has sent/ shall sent…. Two witnesses, a Lamb, 144,000 of Israel, an Angel….to Preach to ALL of Israel and ALL Gentiles of the whole world!)
(** and BTW, WHY men who reject the pre-trib Rapture…CAN NOT DESCRIBE ONE THING the CONVERTED IN CHRIST are supposedly DOING ON EARTH during the Trib…and thus AVOID the question)

SO…REVIEW the FACTS…

* ONLY those “IN” Christ are called “CONVERTED”.
* ONLY those “IN” Christ are called “MADE WHOLE.”
* ONLY those “IN” Christ are called “NEW CREATURES”.
* ONLY those “IN” Christ are called “SEALED”.
* ONLY those “IN” Christ are called “born OF God”.
* ONLY those “IN” Christ HAVE “Gods spirit IN THEM”.
* ONLY those “IN” CHRIST….”WHOLLY, WHOLE”…( BODY, soul & spirit) RISE UP TO MEET THEIR Lord IN the clouds /air!!!

SAVED…departed souls who ARE NOT…members of Christ’s Church…
IT IS THEIR departed (out of their body’s) saved souls that rise up to Heaven…….NOT THEIR BODY’S!!!
THEY WAIT for their DEAD BODY’s (ON EARTH) to BE RESURRECTED…(ON EARTH)…NOT resurrected TO Heaven!

If you have not yet figured it out…
RAPTURE ONLY APPLIES to Christ’s Church Members…..

BECAUSE “they HAVE BEEN MADE WHOLE”…and REDEEMED…
BODY, SOUL, SPIRIT…and WITH the Lord, wherever HE IS…lower heavens, clouds, air, earth….<—-> THAT IS NOT THE CASE for “saved souls’…whose body is still dead in its grave ON Earth!”

SO ….NO….THERE IS NOT A PRE-TRIB “RAPTURE”……..AND A “POST-TRIB” RAPTURE…

BODY’S (OF THOSE WHO DIED IN BELIEF…BUT NON-CONFESSED THUS NOT CONVERTED WHILE BODILY ALIVE…
SHALL BE RAISED FOR JUDGEMENT AFTER THE TRIB… ARE RAISED UP OUT OF THEIR EARTHEN GRAVE TO THE FACE OF THE EARTH…
THOSE BODY’S ARE NOT RAISE UP TO THE CLOUDS, THE AIR, OR HEAVEN!!
And precisely WHY, it is NOT called properly (by men), nor ever in Scripture called a “RAPTURE” … (regarding THEM).
It is a RESURRECTION!

A Resurrection…IS:
When a body dies…
It’s living soul departs out of the body.
When a living soul RETURNS to a dead body,
The Body revives, Returns to being Alive, resumes Living….

That has ZERO to do with the “soul” being SAVED or not.

All souls belong to God.
All LIFE IN all souls belongs to God.
All natural bodies LIFE is Blood.
ALL natural bodies SHALL, MUST DIE
(God Requires that.)
A living soul DEPARTS a dead body.
A living soul RETURNED to a dead body, IS by, through, of the will and Power of God.

EVERY living soul SHALL return to EVERY Dead body…and those BODY”S SHALL then Stand before the Judge, BOW DOWN and Worship the Judge…ON their Judgement Day…and receive their Judgement and Sentence.

Learn the difference between a Rapture and Resurrection and Redemption and Damnation.

Only Christ’s Church is Raptured.
All others shall be Resurrected.
Of ALL the Resurrected, SOME will be Redeemed. (Claimed and Sealed by God).
Those NOT Redeemed, Shall be Damned..

 

[The Light]

During the “Lambs” wrath…the Lambs 7 Seals Judgements…
* men having become Confessed Believers ARE bodily Killed and souls saved.

The saved souls…WAIT (on earth) for more believers to Confess and become saved.

There is a rapture at the 6th seal. The believers are already raptured to heaven for the marriage supper.

During the “Devils” wrath…and Gods 7 Trump Judgements…More men (Jews, ISRAEL, Gentiles OF the whole world) become Confessed Believers, their bodies KILLED, their souls saved…and collectively…their Saved souls, rise to Heaven.

The devils wrath is over at the 6th seal. That is when the tribulation is over. The 7th seal is Gods wrath.

It’s a period of time…Men upon the face of the earth are Experiencing…
The Lambs wrath (for unbelief in Him)
(During the Seals judgements.)
The Devils wrath (for unbelief in him).
(during the Trumps judgements.)

The devil is done at the 6th seal. The 7th seal is Gods wrath on an evil world

Then commences Gods Wrath and 7 bowl Judgements poured out upon the Remaining (anti-Christ/God)….men.

The bowl judgements take place in the same timeframe as the trumpet judgements.

* NOT ONCE ARE the DEAD BODIES of the souls saved During the Tribulation RISEN UP TO HEAVEN!

The dead in Christ rise first. Then the alive that remained are caught up. This is the rapture of the Church. It will happen before the tribulation.

After that there are 144,000 redeemed from the earth from the earth that are first fruits.

Revelation 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Then there is the rapture of the second harvest seen here.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

This rapture occurs at the 6th seal. When you are reading Rev 13 and 14 you are back in the 1st 6 seals. When you are reading Rev 15 and 16 you are back in the 7th seal.

 

[The Light]

Their Departed saved souls RISE UP TO HEAVEN.
Their DEAD Bodies REMAIN ON EARTH.

The dead receive new bodies.........and so do the alive that are raptured

1 Cor 15
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

If you have not yet figured it out…
RAPTURE ONLY APPLIES to Christ’s Church Members…..

The pretrib rapture happens before the tribulation.
The post trib or prewrath rapture happens before the wrath of God.

After the mostly Gentile Church is raptured, 144,000 from the twelve tribes across the earth become first fruits of the second harvest.

SO ….NO….THERE IS NOT A PRE-TRIB “RAPTURE”……..AND A “POST-TRIB” RAPTURE…

Certainly there is.

When the Church is raptured, the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. Then God will turn His attention to the Chosen. Part of the blindness of Israel will be removed.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

The fig tree has two harvests. Jacob had two brides. One coming of Jesus for His Church will be like the days of Noah. The second coming of Jesus will be like the days of Lot.

 

[The Light]

So, scripture indicates that the very ones who were blinded in Paul's day and all who have been blinded since then were only blinded temporarily (in part) and still had the opportunity to be saved. Your doctrine says that those who were blinded in his day and since then were permanently blinded until their deaths and it will be that way until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. Your doctrine clearly contradicts what Paul taught. Their blindness was never permanent for the rest of their lives, but rather was done in order for the Gentiles to provoke them to jealousy and lead them to salvation.

Postponing everything Paul was talking about in Romans 11 until a future time requires someone to ignore the context of what Paul was talking about, which can be seen in verses 11-14. He was talking about something that was a reality back then and would continue to be the case until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. God's plan was to blind Israel in part in order to use Gentile believers to provoke them to jealousy and lead them to salvation. It is a reversal of how it was at the beginning when Israelite believers brought the gospel to the Gentiles and lead them to salvation. Then, God turned things around to have the Gentiles lead the Israelites to salvation. That plan has been ongoing ever since.

Most of the Jews have been blinded until the fullness of the Gentiles come in. After the rapture of the Church part of Israel will have that blindness removed. They will realize that the summer wheat harvest has past, and they have not been saved.

Jeremiah 8
20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

Then there will be 144,000 first fruits of the next harvest. These are of the 12 tribes and are the seed of the woman.

What do you think Paul meant when he said this:

Ephesians 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Paul talked about it like a done deal. He HATH MADE both one. And he was talking about Gentile believers and Israelite believers. Why do you not take this as written (literally) like you do so much other scripture? Where is the consistency in your approach to interpreting scripture?

I do take it literally.

The mostly Gentile Church hear His voice. They will be the first fold. Other sheep not of this fold will then hear His voice as their blindness is removed. He will come for that second fold here.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

So you want everything to be done when Christ died. But the Word says the Israel must be regrafted into the olive tree and that will not happen until the first fold are raptured.

With the understanding that we're talking about the Jewish sheep (believer) fold and the Gentile sheep (believer) fold, Paul said Jesus "HATH MADE both one" (Eph 2:14). It's amazing to me that you don't take that verse as written when you harp so much on taking scripture as written. Except in the case when it doesn't agree with your doctrine?

The Lord has not come. When He comes for the Church that will be the first fold. Then others will hear His voice and they will be mostly the twelve tribes across the earth. They are the second fold. We see them in heaven after the harvest here.............

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

These are of the 12 tribes as they sing the song of Moses.

You abandon your "as written" approach to interpreting scripture when you try to say that both folds have yet to be made into one fold when that is exactly what is indicated in Ephesians 2:14. And when you deny that all of the dead won't be resurrected at generally the same time as Jesus indicated in John 5:28-29.

This claim is in error. I have explained that it is all about timing. The Jews will not have that blindness removed until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. After that the second fold will be regrafted. Then it will be two folds into one.

Of course I would not say that. Ridiculous question. I'm saying your interpretation of those verses is wrong. How do you reconcile what those verses say with what Jesus said in John 5:28-29? It's not a problem for my view and my way of interpreting scripture. But, it is a problem for yours. I'm saying that you are inconsistent in your "as written" literal method of interpreting scripture. You make a lot of exceptions to your rule such as when you do not take passages like Ephesians 2:11-22 and John 5:28-29 as written.

You are claiming that I am being inconsistent because you think everything has happened. There has been no fold gathered as of yet. Then it will be in order. The mostly Gentile Church first and then of the 12 tribes mostly second.

The first fold will occur before the tribulation and the second fold will happen at the 6th seal. Then the wrath of God happens when the 7th seal is opened.

So I have not been inconsistent whatsoever.

 

[ewq1938]

But the Word says the Israel must be regrafted into the olive tree

It doesn't say that at all. It presents some of Israel remaining on the tree due to faith in Christ, while all others being removed from that tree for not having faith in Christ. It says removed branches can be re-attached if they come to that faith. It does not say all removed branches will find that faith and be re-attached.

 

[ewq1938]

The first fold will occur before the tribulation and the second fold will happen at the 6th seal. Then the wrath of God happens when the 7th seal is opened.

This dual fold/rapture is not scriptural. There is only one rapture of all living believers and it happens when the 7th and last trump sounds.

 

[The Light]

It doesn't say that at all. It presents some of Israel remaining on the tree due to faith in Christ, while all others being removed from that tree for not having faith in Christ. It says removed branches can be re-attached if they come to that faith. It does not say all removed branches will find that faith and be re-attached.

This is a good point. However, it does say after the fullness of the Gentiles comes in part of them will have their blindness removed.

 

[The Light]

This dual fold/rapture is not scriptural. There is only one rapture of all living believers and it happens when the 7th and last trump sounds.

There are two raptures. The two folds shall become one fold.
John 10
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

There's not even a rapture at the 7th trumpet. Again, you have believers going through the wrath of God. We are NOT appointed to wrath. Your view is clearly in opposition to scripture.

 

[Taken]

The believers are already raptured to heaven for the marriage supper.

Believers raptured…? No
Converted Believers IN Christ raptured..? Yes
For Marriage Supper?….No

The marriage supper of the Lamb does NOT occur until …Rev 19:7….after…seals, trumps, bowls judgements.

* One RAPTURE occurs BEFORE the Last days Tribulation comes down from Heaven.
* THAT RAPTURE…UP to the Clouds
applies TO:
All those IN Christ. (Christ’s Church)
* Those IN Christ (bodily having died or still bodily living)…
BECAUSE…THEY…
ARE…already forgiven
ARE…already crucified, bodily dead IN Christ
ARE…already soul saved
ARE…already spirit quickened (born again)
ARE…not appointed to wrath
HAVE…been made ACCOUNTED WHOLE.

THEIR RAISING UP…to the clouds…to meet and be with their Lord FOREVER
IS them in a twinkling of an eye, being BODILY CHANGED…receiving their INCORRUPTIBLE BODY.

BODY, SOUL, SPIRIT…CHANGED…
THEY NEVER subject to Death, Corruption, Separation from God.