The Prophetic Timeline: Why Jesuit Futurists/Jesuit Preterists Ignore It

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Phoneman777

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I reject that the eschatology view called Futurism is what is being called "Jesuit Futurisim" by you.
That's funny, seeing that Futurist ideas were unknown to the world until the sixteenth century Jesuits invented it - hence the name "Jesuit Futurism" or Jesuit "Left Behind" Futurism, if you lump in Darby's erroneous ideas.
The Pope/papacy is not the Antichrist, nor the beast. Get over it. The reformers, and later SDA, made a mistake. The popes of the days of the inquisition were evil, but were not the Antichrist.
The Reformers, the SDA church, and every other Protestant Historicist out there has it right - it's you Jesuit Futurists who are lining up for the papal Koolaid.

Let's hear reasons - not rhetoric - for why you oppose it.
The Antichrist is will another Jew that the Jews for a while will mistakenly think he is their promised King of Israel messiah. The pope does not qualify.
I've shown time and time again from Scripture on this thread why Antichrist cannot be a Jew because the antichrist starts out in the church but then goes on to commit apostasy and exits the church.
 

covenantee

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What is written in the bible.

Jesus was the Christ, the promised King of Israel messiah. But the Jews rejected Jesus as such. "King of the Jews" was nailed to the cross, as directed by Pilate.

The Antichrist is will another Jew that the Jews for a while will mistakenly think he is their promised King of Israel messiah. The pope does not qualify.

The reformers did not correctly understand eschatology. The reformers were reacting to the persecution they were receiving for breaking away from the pope's dictatorial rule - by accusing the pope/papacy as the Antichrist.

That the bishop of the church at Rome became powerful to later become the pope does not make the Vatican type of dictatorial rule, at the time of the the reformers, right to persecute them for breaking away. But, equally, the reformers misunderstanding of eschatology also does not make the pope/papacy the Antichrist.

Time to get with what is written in the bible.
John Wycliffe was originally part of the apostate papacy.

He produced the first English translation of the entire Bible.

He is also known as "The Morning Star of the Reformation".

Do you think Reformer John Wycliffe knew what he wrote in his Bible?

Or do you think Reformer John Wycliffe did not know what he wrote in his Bible?
 
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Douggg

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That's funny, seeing that Futurist ideas were unknown to the world until the sixteenth century Jesuits invented it - hence the name "Jesuit Futurism" or Jesuit "Left Behind" Futurism, if you lump in Darby's erroneous ideas.
John wrote down Revelation which is a futurist book centered on Jesus's return. Jesuits did not invent it.

As soon as Revelation was spread into the Christian churchs, Christians would have tried to put Revelation together with other end time prophecies in the bible - long before there was any group called Jesuits.


Let's hear reasons - not rhetoric - for why you oppose it.
I have been giving you reasons. The pope/papacy is not qualified to be the Antichrist - perceived King of Israel messiah by the Jews.

I've shown time and time again from Scripture on this thread why Antichrist cannot be a Jew because the antichrist starts out in the church but then goes on to commit apostasy and exits the church.
The Antichrist does not start out in the church. He starts out as the little horn. The church is not in Daniel 7 or 8.
 

ScottA

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The revealed man of sin, who will claim to have achieved God-hood will be the Antichrist person. As the Antichrist, he will initially be thought by the Jews as their long awaited King of Israel messiah.

But when he commits the transgression of desolation action in 2Thesslaonians2:4 of claiming to have achieved God-hood, that will reveal him as being the man of sin, and not the messiah after all.
@ScottA As a matter of general principle, I agree that false teachers within different church groups can lead others within those groups astray on a variety of issues.

I am just saying that you picked the wrong bible passage, those in 2Thessalonians2, to make that point. 2Thesslaonians2 deals with eschatology, events of the end times.

I think you may have also referenced 2Peter2:1 regarding false teachers in the manner your are referring to. Which that verse would support your point.

I'm not here to argue about foretold error that has been misunderstood for 2,000 years. That much should be obvious. But if it is not, it's not for me to debate the broken record theology, only to state the truth that has been sealed all of this time.
 

ScottA

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Fixation isn't always bad. Are not Christians fixated on saving souls or saving babies from abortion? I'm fixated on saving people from being seduced by the papal beast and being duped into taking it's "mark of authority".

The problem is, their time has come to an end. Yes, they have been an anti-Christ hinderance to the great commission, but so has everyone else who adopted the "future, fleshly, one-time event return of Christ." That makes us brothers...and you might rather be found looking into what Christendom is now all guilty of--that was already at work 2,000 years ago and still is.
 

Phoneman777

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John wrote down Revelation which is a futurist book centered on Jesus's return.
There is nothing in Revelation that contains the teachings of Jesuit Futurism:
  • rebuilt temple in Jerusalem
  • restarted sacrificial system
  • literal Jewish eschatological centrality
  • rise of a Jewish evil individual "antichrist"
  • 7 year peace treaty between Arabs and Jews
  • pre-tribulation rapture (which isn't really a Jesuit thing, but a Darby thing)
  • mid-treaty disruption of peace that results in Armageddon
Jesuits did not invent it.
They absolutely invented Jesuit Futurism in the 16th century, prior to which it was unknown to the world.
As soon as Revelation was spread into the Christian churchs, Christians would have tried to put Revelation together with other end time prophecies in the bible - long before there was any group called Jesuits.
Then you should be able to point to something - anything - showing where the church put that together. You won't find it. If you lay aside your Jesuit Futurist beliefs and take an objective look at church history, you'll see that the ECFs were all Historicist. This link is not rhetoric - it contains the testimony of ECFs on the many different Historicist positions they held that fly in the face of Jesuit Futurism:

I have been giving you reasons. The pope/papacy is not qualified to be the Antichrist - perceived King of Israel messiah by the Jews.
No, you're given me Jesuit talking points. The pope/papacy is the Little Horn which arose among the Ten Horns in Daniel 7, came out of "one of the four winds of heaven" in Daniel 8, first as Pagan Rome when attacking horizontally, then PAPAL ROME when it began attacking the throne of God and robbing Christ of His High Priestly Ministry. Don't you see it's Rome - not Jerusalem - from where the antichrist arises?
The Antichrist does not start out in the church. He starts out as the little horn. The church is not in Daniel 7 or 8.
Good gravy, man, both Judas and the Man of Sin are the only ones ever called "the Son of Perdition" so all we have to do is examine Judas to find out somethign about the antichrist, right or wrong?

Did Judas arise outside the church and then come and attack it? No! He started out "in" the church and then committed apostasy!

Antichrists are said to have "went out from among us" which means they began "inside among us" - these forerunners of the Man of Sin papal Antichrist show us that the papacy would do the exact same thing.
 
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Phoneman777

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The problem is, their time has come to an end. Yes, they have been an anti-Christ hinderance to the great commission, but so has everyone else who adopted the "future, fleshly, one-time event return of Christ." That makes us brothers...and you might rather be found looking into what Christendom is now all guilty of--that was already at work 2,000 years ago and still is.
I think we both agree that "deception" is the greatest threat to the end times church - that alone should warrant a thorough examination of our beliefs, with a level of scrutiny that only the most confident are willing to abide. I'm not saying this applies to you, but It's my experience that most people would rather circle their intellectual wagons around their beliefs rather than allow them to bear the test of Biblical scrutiny - because there's nothing more unwelcome than the thought we might have believed eschatoloigical lies all along.

I for one should know, because when I discovered Protestant Historicism and put it up against my Jesuit Futurism (yes, I was once a Jesuit Futurist because I was never told there was anything else out there) God's prophetic picture suddenly became crystal clear.
 
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Douggg

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Did Judas arise outside the church and then come and attack it? No! He started out "in" the church and then committed apostasy!
Judas killed himself before the church began.

The church is built on the gospel of salvation, which Jesus's disciples did not understand until after the resurrection and Jesus's appearing to them in Luke 24:44-48.


44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
 

Phoneman777

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Judas killed himself before the church began.
OT: the Israelites who followed God were called "the church that was in the wilderness."
NT: the Christians who follow Christ are called "the church that follows Christ" - began with Andrew.
 

Douggg

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OT: the Israelites who followed God were called "the church that was in the wilderness."
NT: the Christians who follow Christ are called "the church that follows Christ" - began with Andrew.
Provide your scripture references.

Judas hung himself before Jesus was crucified. So Judas was never part of the church. The church began after the death and resurrection of Jesus, in Luke 24:44-48.

Matthew 27:
1 When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death:

2 And when they had bound him, they led him away, and delivered him to Pontius Pilate the governor.

3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.

5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.
 

Douggg

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John Wycliffe was originally part of the apostate papacy.

He produced the first English translation of the entire Bible.

He is also known as "The Morning Star of the Reformation".

Do you think Reformer John Wycliffe knew what he wrote in his Bible?

Or do you think Reformer John Wycliffe did not know what he wrote in his Bible?
I have not read the Wycliffe bible. If Wycliffe considered the pope/papacy the Antichrist, then Wycliffe was wrong about that specific issue.
 

covenantee

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I have not read the Wycliffe bible. If Wycliffe considered the pope/papacy the Antichrist, then Wycliffe was wrong about that specific issue.
John Wycliffe was originally a priest in the apostate papacy,

He was intimately familiar with it.

He was eminently qualified to recognize and expose it as antichrist.

Have you ever been a priest in the apostate papacy?
 

Douggg

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John Wycliffe was originally a priest in the apostate papacy,

He was intimately familiar with it.

He was eminently qualified to recognize and expose it as antichrist.

Have you ever been a priest in the apostate papacy?
No, to the priest question, of any denomination. The pope/papacy is not the Antichrist. The Antichrist must be a Jew who will be mistakenly embraced by the Jews as their King of Israel messiah for a while. Until he reveals himself to be the man of sin and not the messiah after all.
 

covenantee

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No, to the priest question, of any denomination. The pope/papacy is not the Antichrist. The Antichrist must be a Jew who will be mistakenly embraced by the Jews as their King of Israel messiah for a while. Until he reveals himself to be the man of sin and not the messiah after all.
So who has a superior understanding of the apostate papacy?

1. You.
2. John Wycliffe, who was a priest within it.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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A specifically identified Restrainer is one thing and an obscure, symbolic "lion" or "bear" is another altogether. Every ECF that had anything to say about the Restrainer all said it was Pagan Rome. England's "greatest prophecy teacher" H. Grattan Guinness calls it "remarkable unanimity".

Remarkable unanimity in being wrong about this particular issue. You put them on too high of a pedestal.

You - like all who wait for a future antichrist to arise just before Jesus sneaks into town and sneaks out with the saints or just before the Second Coming - are following Jesuit lies scooped from "the Roman dunghill of decretals".
You are making an absolute fool of yourself here. Why don't you find out what I actually believe before spewing this nonsense? I am as far from being a pre-trib dispensationalist as you can get, but here you are thinking I believe that nonsense. I don't believe that any future individual antichrist will arise. John made it clear that antichrist is anyone who rejects Christ.

Why do you act as if everything not mentioned in the Bible is false teaching?
I don't. Do you have anything to offer at all besides false accusations?

Did Paul say "reject all prophesyings" or did he say "despise not prophesyings...prove all things"?
The evidence points to - not away from - Paul telling the early church the Restrainer was Pagan Rome.
I'm not seeing it. What was being restrained was wickedness. That's why he indicated it would be at some point in the future when there would be a mass falling away for a time just before the return of Christ. Jesus alluded to this as well in Matthew 24:10-13. He indicated it would be a time of increased wickedness. Before that time wickedness has been restrained by the preaching of the gospel through the power of the Holy Spirit. But, a time is coming, if it hasn't started already, when the gospel will be mostly silenced by false teaching and false religions. As an amillennialist, I see that time as correlating with Satan's little season (Revelation 20:7-9).

If one says antichrist arose in the 1st century and all prophecy has been fulfilled, he is a Jesuit Preterist.
If one says antichrist will arise just before the Second Coming, he is a Jesuit Futurist.
If one says the papal antichrist arose in the 6th century, he's a Protestant Historicist bearer of truth.
What say you?
I say none of the above. Why do you try to limit the options? I say that Paul's reference to "the man of sin" is a general reference to sinful man in a similar way that he generally referenced godly people as "the man of God" in this verse:

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Is this referring to an individual "man of God"? No. It's referring to the people of God in a general sense. That is how I understand the reference to "the man of sin". A general reference to sinful, unrepentant people. And he talks about how there will be a mass falling away before Christ returns, so I see him as describing people who decide to turn away from God and basically see themselves as God instead.

You spelled "emphatic" wrong. I have to be when dealing with people so blinded by Jesuit Futurism that if they tripped over the truth, they'd curse it while picking themselves up and continuing on in search of it.
No, I spelled "dramatic" correctly.
 

Douggg

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So who has a superior understanding of the apostate papacy?

1. You.
2. John Wycliffe, who was a priest within it.
As far as who is the Antichrist, I have the correct understanding. The pope/papacy is not qualified to be the Antichrist.
 

covenantee

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As far as who is the Antichrist, I have the correct understanding. The pope/papacy is not qualified to be the Antichrist.
John Wycliffe, and every other Reformer, had the correct understanding.

You don't.

Thank God for John Wycliffe and the Reformation.
 

Douggg

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John Wycliffe, and every other Reformer, had the correct understanding.

You don't.

Thank God for John Wycliffe and the Reformation.
Who do you think will build the next temple, which animal sacrifices will begin again? The pope ?
 

covenantee

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Who do you think will build the next temple, which animal sacrifices will begin again? The pope ?
There'll be no next temple.

Sozomen (ca. A.D.375-447)
"Ecclesiastical History"
Book V, Chapter XXII


Though the emperor [Julian the Apostate] hated and oppressed the Christians, he manifested benevolence and humanity towards the Jews. He wrote to the Jewish patriarchs and leaders, as well as to the people, requesting them to pray for him, and for the prosperity of the empire. In taking this step he was not actuated, I am convinced, by any respect for their religion; for he was aware that it is, so to speak, the mother of the Christian religion, and he knew that both religions rest upon the authority of the patriarchs and the prophets; but he thought to grieve the Christians by favoring the Jews, who are their most inveterate enemies. But perhaps he also calculated upon persuading the Jews to embrace paganism and sacrifices; for they were only acquainted with the mere letter of Scripture, and could not, like the Christians and a few of the wisest among the Hebrews, discern the hidden meaning.

Events proved that this was his real motive; for he sent for some of the chiefs of the race and exhorted them to return to the observance of the laws of Moses and the customs of their fathers. On their replying that because the temple in Jerusalem was overturned, it was neither lawful nor ancestral to do this in another place than the metropolis out of which they had been cast, he gave them public money, commanded them to rebuild the temple, and to practice the cult similar to that of their ancestors, by sacrificing after the ancient way. The Jews entered upon the undertaking, without reflecting that, according to the prediction of the holy prophets, it could not be accomplished. They sought for the most skillful artisans, collected materials, cleared the ground, and entered so earnestly upon the task, that even the women carried heaps of earth, and brought their necklaces and other female ornaments towards defraying the expense. The emperor, the other pagans, and all the Jews, regarded every other undertaking as secondary in importance to this. Although the pagans were not well-disposed towards the Jews, yet they assisted them in this enterprise, because they reckoned upon its ultimate success, and hoped by this means to falsify the prophecies of Christ. Besides this motive, the Jews themselves were impelled by the consideration that the time had arrived for rebuilding their temple. When they had removed the ruins of the former building, they dug up the ground and cleared away its foundation; it is said that on the following day when they were about to lay the first foundation, a great earthquake occurred, and by the violent agitation of the earth, stones were thrown up from the depths, by which those of the Jews who were engaged in the work were wounded, as likewise those who were merely looking on. The houses and public porticos, near the site of the temple, in which they had diverted themselves, were suddenly thrown down; many were caught thereby, some perished immediately, others were found half dead and mutilated of hands or legs, others were injured in other parts of the body. When God caused the earthquake to cease, the workmen who survived again returned to their task, partly because such was the edict of the emperor, and partly because they were themselves interested in the undertaking. Men often, in endeavoring to gratify their own passions, seek what is injurious to them, reject what would be truly advantageous, and are deluded-by the idea that nothing is really useful except what is agreeable to them. When once led astray by this error, they are no longer able to act in a manner conducive to their own interests, or to take warning by the calamities which are visited upon them.

The Jews, I believe, were just in this state; for, instead of regarding this unexpected earthquake as a manifest indication that God was opposed to the re-erection of their temple, they proceeded to recommence the work. But all parties relate, that they had scarcely returned to the undertaking, when fire burst suddenly from the foundations of the temple, and consumed several of the workmen.

This fact is fearlessly stated, and believed by all; the only discrepancy in the narrative is that some maintain that flame burst from the interior of the temple, as the workmen were striving to force an entrance, while others say that the fire proceeded directly from the earth. In whichever way the phenomenon might have occurred, it is equally wonderful. A more tangible and still more extraordinary prodigy ensued; suddenly the sign of the cross appeared spontaneously on the garments of the persons engaged in the undertaking. These crosses were disposed like stars, and appeared the work of art. Many were hence led to confess that Christ is God, and that the rebuilding of the temple was not pleasing to Him; others presented themselves in the church, were initiated, and besought Christ, with hymns and supplications, to pardon their transgression. If any one does not feel disposed to believe my narrative, let him go and be convinced by those who heard the facts I have related from the eyewitnesses of them, for they are still alive. Let him inquire, also, of the Jews and pagans who left the work in an incomplete state, or who, to speak more accurately, were able to commence it.
 

Douggg

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There'll be no next temple.
In Daniel 8:12-13, the little horn person will stop the daily sacrifice at the time of the end, Daniel 8:17. Who will build the temple which the animal sacrifices will begin again? The pope ?

There are Jewish groups in Israel, such as, the temple mount faithful, and the temple institute, preparing for the building of another Jewish temple on the temple mount.

In Judaism, there is the belief that the messiah will take part in the building of the next temple.
 
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