LOCUSTS From The Book of JOEL

[Davy]

You are exactly correct here in your first comments that this plague was referring to a nation's literal ARMY which God was going to send among His people.

Nope. You are being deceived by men's traditions, which sounds like Preterism or Historicsm which wrongly treats symbology which God gives as analogy.

The locust army is NOT ABOUT A LITERAL MILITARY ARMY.

God only uses the IDEA of literal army as a SYMBOL regarding the locusts. He TOLD you what the locusts represent, which you have just BYPASSED in His Word...

Joel 1:6
6 For a nation is come up upon My land, strong, and without number, whose teeth are the teeth of a lion, and he hath the cheek teeth of a great lion.
KJV

The locusts of the Book of Joel, and Revelation 9, represent Satan's servants on earth that God is allowing to takeover the earth and all peoples in prep for Satan's future beast kingdom of Rev.13.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Joel 1:6
6 For a nation is come up upon My land, strong, and without number, whose teeth are the teeth of a lion, and he hath the cheek teeth of a great lion.
KJV

That "NATION" was ASSYRIA. The time for that particular prophecy in Joel to be fulfilled was "AT HAND" as both Joel 1:15 and Joel 2:1 tells us. God defines for us when at "AT HAND" prophecy is fulfilled in Ezekiel 12:21-28. An "at hand" prophecy is not "prolonged" into "times that are far off", but is fulfilled "IN YOUR DAYS" for the ones who first receive that prophecy.

Significantly, the Assyrian royal symbol was a lion's body with a bearded human head - probably why the lion in mentioned in Joel 1:6.

Your timing is off for the fulfillment of this prophecy.

 

[TribulationSigns]

It's not my spiritual discernment that is in doubt here, it is yours since you obviously cannot understand The Scripture on your own without having to refer to some article written by someone else.|

The Scripture has refuted your position anyway. Yes it is your spiritual discernment that is lacking here.

I've already established that you do not have spiritual discernment, because of your pushing that article, and your total lack of recognizing the existence of God's teaching in the Book of Joel about those locusts.

Foolish. The article comes with Scripture that I testify. It save me time instead of explain here. But I can see that you has refuse to read it so you remained blind to the truth. So go have fun with literal locusts.

Regardless

Ahh, you admit your claim was false. I never said that the second adam was adam. Liar.

the topic about Adam's fall has nothing to do with the locusts subject of Revelation 9 and the Book of Joel.

Where did I say that in my post? Liar twice.

Well, there's another one of your made-up opinions thrown out of the thin air. Satan is the devil, dragon, Lucifer, that old serpent, etc., he has many titles. So much for your stupid accusation.

You don't get it. Satan is a spirit of man. Dragon is a spirit of man. Lucifer is a spirit of man. Yes, he has many titles but pointing to Man's spirit of disobedience. Like I said, you have been brainwashed by typical Sunday School thinking Satan is a created being under a name, Lucifer.

 

[Davy]

That "NATION" was ASSYRIA. The time for that particular prophecy in Joel to be fulfilled was "AT HAND" as both Joel 1:15 and Joel 2:1 tells us. God defines for us when at "AT HAND" prophecy is fulfilled in Ezekiel 12:21-28. An "at hand" prophecy is not "prolonged" into "times that are far off", but is fulfilled "IN YOUR DAYS" for the ones who first receive that prophecy.

Significantly, the Assyrian royal symbol was a lion's body with a bearded human head - probably why the lion in mentioned in Joel 1:6.

Your timing is off for the fulfillment of this prophecy.

Nope, the "nation" God is pointing to in Joel 1 is the one He gives more detail about in Joel 2, so note where He says this in Joel 1 and Joel 2...

Joel 1:15
15 Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.
KJV

Joel 2:1
2 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in My holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
KJV

Joel 2:20
20 But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things.
KJV

Joel 2:30-31
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
KJV

All those Scriptures are pointers to last generation that will see Christ's future return on that "day of the Lord". That "northern army" is about the gathering of the armies at the end which will come up against Israel for the battle of Armageddon.

And Joel 3 gives even more very easy to understand Scripture that shows it is speaking of the era of Christ's future return.

Joel 3:14-17
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter His voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of His people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, My holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
KJV

The Book of Joel is not difficult to understand at all, as it is definitely pointing to the very end of days just prior to Christ's future return. You should try reading it instead of just regurgitating a bunch silly doctrines from men that you've been listening to instead.

 

[Davy]

The Scripture has refuted your position anyway. Yes it is your spiritual discernment that is lacking here.

The Bible Scriptures is what I have been covering, as written. What you have said is just a bunch of hot air from men's doctrines, not supported with Scripture at all. Your spiritual weakness is showing, because now the only resort you have is an attempt at vanity and slander.

 

[3 Resurrections]

The Book of Joel is not difficult to understand at all, as it is definitely pointing to the very end of days just prior to Christ's future return.

That's not possible, according to Peter in Acts 2:16-17 who pronounced that the Joel 2:28-32 prophecy was THEN taking place at that very moment during Pentecost in the first century. "This is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel..." Peter said, and he then quoted Joel 2:28-32.

The "northern army" coming against Israel was going to take place even before the first-century fulfillment of that Joel 2:28-32 prophecy. The language tells us this, because Joel 2:20 first describes the coming removal of the defeated "northern army", and then Joel 2:28 tells us, "And it shall come to pass AFTERWARD" that God would pour out His Spirit on all flesh, etc..

Your timing of Joel's fulfillment is way off by a couple thousand years and more. You apparently have no conception of what scripture means by something that is "AT HAND" for a generation to experience in their own days.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Yes, I think the Joel passage is speaking of a literal locust army, but depicts God's use of various plagues to bring judgment upon the disobedient among the Jewish People. The same would apply in the last days to Christian Civilization, which has gone apostate.

Plagues will fall upon European Civilization, as it already has. But I do agree that the Revelation passage is likely speaking of a different kind of plague--a non-literal locust plague, probably representing an Army, whether demonic or human. You're right--it's obviously symbolic, and not a literal locust plague.

I agree that Joel speaks of literal locusts because the text contains many clues about crop losses and starvation.

 

[TribulationSigns]

I agree that Joel speaks of literal locusts because the text contains many clues about crop losses and starvation.

Sigh...It is a typical belief among those with carnal minds, thinking everything in Revelation must be interpreted literally.

When we read in Exdous that the literal locusts ate the crop that hurt the Egyptian livelihood and economy. That was in the Old Testament.

HOWEVER, God used this as a spiritual picture for the church in the New Testament. In Revelation 11, the church is spiritually Egypt where God sent the plague upon. In Revelation 9, God has compared the locusts with false prophets and christs, those people with the spirit of antichrist, and came with lying signs and wonders. The grass of the Earth, green things, and any trees are people of the congregation - both the chosen elect and professed Christians. Not talking about the world here. Here God is using the false prophets and christs (Locusts) to attack (deceive) those men without the seal of God, the professed Christians, as a judgment! They were ones who had not yet been saved (sealed) by God but they went to church pretending to be Christians, yet do not love the Truth. They also seek or have the desire to be saved (death in Christ), but will not find it. This is how the unfaithful church is under the judgment of God.

To assume that God will use the literal locusts again in the New Testament as a judgment does not have spiritual discernment on what God declared in the Book of Revelation.

 

[3 Resurrections]

I agree that Joel speaks of literal locusts because the text contains many clues about crop losses and starvation.

After Joel's prophesied series of Assyrian attacks came against Israel, the landscape and the people suffered accordingly. A nation's invading army sweeping through a district leaves devastation in their wake once they have passed through - just like natural locust swarms do to the vegetation of the country they have passed through.

 

[Davy]

That's not possible, according to Peter in Acts 2:16-17 who pronounced that the Joel 2:28-32 prophecy was THEN taking place at that very moment during Pentecost in the first century. "This is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel..." Peter said, and he then quoted Joel 2:28-32.

When Peter said, "this is that", that means 'an example of' what was written in the Book of Joel that he quoted. You can read what the main show for the cloven tongue of Pentecost is for in Mark 13 when Jesus forewarned that some of us will be delivered up to give a Testimony for Him against the beast, and we are not to premeditate what we will say in that hour, but speak what The Holy Spirit gives us to say. This is why the section of Joel 2 that Peter quoted mentions symbols for the end, and that it will be just prior to the "day of the Lord" (Christ's coming).

The "northern army" coming against Israel was going to take place even before the first-century fulfillment of that Joel 2:28-32 prophecy. The language tells us this, because Joel 2:20 first describes the coming removal of the defeated "northern army", and then Joel 2:28 tells us, "And it shall come to pass AFTERWARD" that God would pour out His Spirit on all flesh, etc..

That "northern army" represents the armies about the FUTURE battle on the last day of this world when Jesus returns on the "day of the Lord". God is giving a detail in Joel 2 about the locusts that is a "nation" which He first mentioned in Joel 1. No outside context adding, we have to stay with the actual Scripture flow.

Joel 2:1-5
2 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in My holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.
4 The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.
5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.
KJV

So you don't recall what Apostles Paul and Peter taught about that "day of the Lord" event in 1 Thess.5 and 2 Peter 3:10? That's the last day of this present world, the day when Jesus returns "as a thief" to do battle against that northern army that will come up against Israel on the last day. These locusts are the locusts of Revelation 9. Their appearance as horsemen is a direct link to Rev.9, just as their teeth like lions is in Joel 1:6.

In Joel 3 there are even stronger references to the final day of this world with Christ's future return on that "day of the Lord".

The following Joel 3 verses are OBVIOUSLY about the final day of this present world! And you sound like you just REFUSE to recognize these Scriptures as written, for what? For men that you want to follow instead?

Joel 3:1-2
3 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,

The above "captivity" God is talking about is His final work of gathering the tribes of Israel back to the holy land in final, which still has not happened yet today. Only a small remnant of Jews returned to create the nation again in 1948. The majority are still scattered in the countries.

2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for My people and for My heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted My land.
KJV

That's about the "northern army" of Ezekiel 38 and 39 that is to come up against Israel and Jerusalem on the last day of this world.


Joel 3:9-17
9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:
10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.
11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.
12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.

Reference to the future battle of Armageddon again on the 7th Vial when Jesus returns "as a thief" ("day of the Lord" reference).

13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.

Direct reference to Revelation 14:14-20.

14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter His voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of His people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, My holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
KJV

It's so... OBVIOUS the above Scripture has NEVER been fulfilled. One can speculate with trying to find historical events of the past to fit it, but that is impossible, and it's easy to grasp when those trying to do that false history are just making up stuff for their own agenda.

 

[3 Resurrections]

When Peter said, "this is that", that means 'an example of' what was written in the Book of Joel that he quoted.

Wrong. When Peter said by inspiration of the Spirit, "THIS is THAT which was spoken by the prophet Joel", it doesn't mean it was just one example of Joel's prophecy. Peter meant that it was the very fulfillment of what Joel wrote.

That "northern army" represents the armies about the FUTURE battle on the last day of this world when Jesus returns on the "day of the Lord".

There is more than just one "day of the Lord" predicted in scripture. This is simply judgment language. God has exercised judgment on other occasions over different nations before with a "day of the Lord" coming to punish certain nations, cities, or people groups for their misdeeds. Israel's enemies often came from the "north", since this Levant region was a crossroads between continents for travelers and tradesmen - and invading armies.

For instance, Daniel 11 is a great example of the history of "the king of the north" being various Seleucid monarchs of Syria who waged warfare, made treaties and marital alliances, etc.

16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter His voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of His people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, My holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
KJV

It's so... OBVIOUS the above Scripture has NEVER been fulfilled.

Wrong again. Hebrews 12:26-27 mentions that the Lord had "NOW" promised for that Hebrews generation to shake not only the earth, but also heaven, so that what was shaken would be REMOVED. That was "NOW" for the first-century generation - NOT our future. God shook the earth and heavens back then in order to leave the unshaken New Jerusalem standing alone without the "weak and beggarly elements" of the Old Jerusalem worship system hanging around anymore.

The following Joel 3 verses are OBVIOUSLY about the final day of this present world! And you sound like you just REFUSE to recognize these Scriptures as written, for what? For men that you want to follow instead?

Joel 3:1-2
3 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,

The above "captivity" God is talking about is His final work of gathering the tribes of Israel back to the holy land in final, which still has not happened yet today.

Wrong again. Joel was predicting the regathering of the tribes in the post-exilic return from Babylonian captivity. Already fulfilled long ago in Zerubbabel's time under Nehemiah, Ezra, Haggai, Joshua, and so forth.

 

[Keraz]

I believe that the very existence of the State of Israel today, surely places us in the Latter Days. Therefore, correct understanding of the end times should be the aim of every Christian believer.

We need to not be taken unawares of coming world changing events. Those Christians who believe in a ‘rapture to heaven’, may find themselves unprepared to face severe Tribulation. The Lord has called us to be His co-workers, so we must know what lies before us, to work diligently toward the furtherance of His Kingdom. Remember that Jesus rebuked the people of His day, for not being able or willing to discern the signs of the prophetic times in which they lived.
Since 1948, we have seen an amazing restoration of the Jewish people into a portion of the Land.

Joel 3:1 When the time comes, I will reverse the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem.
God says; in that time period, certain things will occur. The next prophetic event will be an attack on the Jewish State of Israel by the Islamic peoples, with the support of many other nations and entities. The Lord’s fiery judgement on them will result in the destruction and depopulation of most of the Middle East. Jeremiah 12:14, Psalms 83:1-18, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Micah 4:11-12, Zephaniah 1:14-18

Joel 3:2-3 I shall gather the nations into the valley of Jehoshaphat [the Lord Judges] I will judge them on behalf of My people, whom they scattered among the nations.
This event is not at the Return of Jesus, as it is described in Rev. 19:11-21 and Zechariah 14:3-4

Joel 3:4-8 What are you to Me, Israel’s neighbours? Do you want vengeance? I will make your deeds recoil onto your own heads. You have harmed Judah and stolen their treasures. I will rouse them and bring them home; your own people will be enslaved.

Joel 3:9-17 Proclaim war among the nations! Prepare your weapons, let the weakest say they are strong. The nations all around will hear the call and gather for judgement. The harvest is ripe- wield the knife, tread the grapes. [Rev. 14:17-20] The Day of the Lords vengeance is at hand, in the place of Decision. But the Lord is a refuge for His people, a defence for Israel. By this you will know that I am the Lord your God. Jerusalem will be holy.

Joel 3:18-21 When that day comes, there will be food and water in plenty in the Land. Egypt and Edom will become desolate wastes because of the violence they did to Judah, but the Land of Israel will be inhabited forever. I shall avenge their blood and the Lord will dwell in Zion.

For the universal Church of Jesus Christ and all peoples, it is time to realize that we are now at the edge of cataclysmic events. The obvious determination and preparedness of Israel’s enemies is so great, that there is no defence adequate to cope with their attack. It will require divine intervention to avoid the devastation of a worldwide nuclear exchange. The Lord’s terrible Day of wrath by fire, earthquakes, storms and tsunamis will be triggered by this attack and will result in the virtual depopulation of all the holy land. Ezekiel 30:1-5, Zephaniah 2:8-9, Obadiah 1-21
This event will be the fulfilment of Isaiah 30:25-30, Isaiah 63:1-6, Revelation 6:12-17, Isaiah 66:15-16, Zephaniah 1:14-18 & 3:8, 2 Peter 3:7, +

The assurances given concerning the protection of the faithful Christians, if not kept, would render His Word unreliable, and His character flawed. God’s promises never fail, He will protect His people during His Day of vengeance and wrath against His enemies. Isaiah 43:2, Isaiah 41:13, Psalms 91

It should be clear to anyone that a secular State of Israel is not God’s highest ambition for His people. Currently the Jews only occupy a small portion of Greater Israel and are beset by problems, water shortages, religious schisms and are threatened on all sides. Many, many prophecies predict a remarkable future greatness for ALL the tribes of Israel. Most Bible scholars relegate these predictions to the Millennium, as they cannot see any earlier fulfilment. They have often been influenced by the well entrenched “rapture to heaven” view and a belief that wrongly thinks the Israel of God is separate from the Church of born again believers.

But when thought is given to what so clearly must happen before Jesus Returns, then wonderful is the prospect of a righteous nation, living in peace and security in the Promised Land – after the whole area is cleared and cleansed by this great Day of the Lord’s vengeance. Deuteronomy 32:34-35

 

[Davy]

Wrong. When Peter said by inspiration of the Spirit, "THIS is THAT which was spoken by the prophet Joel", it doesn't mean it was just one example of Joel's prophecy. Peter meant that it was the very fulfillment of what Joel wrote.

No it didn't, simply because in Mark 13 in Christ's Olivet discourse He foretold how at the end some of us will be delivered up to give a Testimony for Him, and not premeditate what we will say in that 'hour', but speak what The Holy Spirit gives us to speak. That event Jesus included in His SIGNS for the end of this world.

And a simple reading of the end of Joel 2 that Peter quoted is pointing directly to that final SIGN at the end of this world just prior to Christ's return. That is why the Joel 2:31 verse mentions that happens just prior to the "day of the Lord", which is the day of Christ's future return after the tribulation.

Many brethren simply skip over... that Mark 13:9-13 Scripture because it unsettles them out of fear of making that stand for Jesus at the end. And those on man's false 'fly away' pre-trib rapture doctrine are told that's not about the Church when it most definitely is. It is even what Apostle Paul was talking about in the Ephesians 6 chapter about the "evil day", and having the armor of God on to make that stand with giving a Testimony for Jesus against the beast.

There is more than just one "day of the Lord" predicted in scripture. This is simply judgment language. God has exercised judgment on other occasions over different nations before with a "day of the Lord" coming to punish certain nations, cities, or people groups for their misdeeds. Israel's enemies often came from the "north", since this Levant region was a crossroads between continents for travelers and tradesmen - and invading armies.

That's the excuse some men use, but it's not true. Those who don't understand the "day of the Lord" is about the day of Christ's future return and start of His "thousand years" reign simply don't understand how God uses it in the prophets to give examples of it for the end of this world. Jeremiah 46:10 is one such ensample when most think God just used it there like you say, just as an expression.

But no, the "day of the Lord" is about a specific day in the future when Christ's coming will 'end' this present world.

That is why Apostle Peter in 2 Peter 3:10 revealed God's consuming fire will burn man's works off the earth on that future day. Apostle Paul also, in 1 Thess.5, mentioned that "day of the Lord" being when the deceived who will be claiming "Peace and safety" experience the "sudden destruction". Paul and Peter were pulling those events from the Old Testament prophets about the "day of the Lord", making it New Testament Christian doctrine.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You don't get it. Satan is a spirit of man. Dragon is a spirit of man. Lucifer is a spirit of man. Yes, he has many titles but pointing to Man's spirit of disobedience. Like I said, you have been brainwashed by typical Sunday School thinking Satan is a created being under a name, Lucifer.

You lose any credibility you might have had by saying nonsense like this.

Mark 1:12 At once the Spirit sent him out into the wilderness, 13 and he was in the wilderness forty days, being tempted by Satan. He was with the wild animals, and angels attended him.

Matthew 4:1 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. 2 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 3 The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.” 4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”

So, you expect us to believe that when Jesus was in the wilderness for forty days, He was being tempted by "Man's spirit of disobedience" rather than an evil spirit being named Satan? Is "Man's spirit of disobedience" somehow able to tempt and talk to people like what Satan did to Jesus in the wilderness? Of course not. What nonsense. Ugh.

 

[3 Resurrections]

No it didn't, simply because in Mark 13 in Christ's Olivet discourse He foretold how at the end some of us will be delivered up to give a Testimony for Him, and not premeditate what we will say in that 'hour', but speak what The Holy Spirit gives us to speak. That event Jesus included in His SIGNS for the end of this world.

Wrong again. That directive in Mark 13 was not given to you and me. It was given in person to Christ's own disciples in that specific time period. Christ said in Mark 13:9, "But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them....But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak,..." etc..

You haven't given careful enough attention to this Mark 13 context. Neither you nor I are going to be delivered up and brought before a non-existent Sanhedrin council led by the rulers of the Jews. Neither will we be beaten in the synagogues for our faith. However, this was most definitely the fate of the first-century disciples who were recorded in the book of Acts to be already experiencing the fulfillment of these verses, just as Christ had forewarned them.

Again, you are some two thousand years plus too late for your interpretation of how these prophecies were to be fulfilled.

And a simple reading of the end of Joel 2 that Peter quoted is pointing directly to that final SIGN at the end of this world just prior to Christ's return. That is why the Joel 2:31 verse mentions that happens just prior to the "day of the Lord", which is the day of Christ's future return after the tribulation.

Wrong again. This Joel 2:31 verse, (coming just after the first-century fulfillment at Pentecost of the Holy Spirit being poured out as prophesied in Joel 2:28-29) tells us that this particular "day of the Lord" was for THAT first-century generation to experience. This text prophesied the second coming return of Christ in AD70. This happened just after those days of "Great Tribulation" in Judea, which the believers could flee from and be delivered if they diligently watched for the signs which Christ had given them.

Again, you are about two thousand years too late with your interpretation of these prophecies.

 

[TribulationSigns]

You lose any credibility you might have had by saying nonsense like this.

No. It is YOU who lost credibility or spiritual understanding.

The Devil is everyone's adversary and doesn't belong to anyone.

He is the rebellious spirit within mankind that holds him in bondage to sin. He is the antichrist spirit that opposes the Kingdom of God. This spirit has always been in the world (since the fall), was bound at the cross for the sake of the nations, and will be unrestrained in the world as judgment in the last days. When Christ contends and disputes with the Devil, He contends and disputes with the spirit of false Priests, Teachers, Prophets and Messengers. This is that evil spirit that works in the children of disobedience and is offended in Christ Jesus. When we read that Christ disputed with the Devil, He is contending with mankind that is in opposition to His kingdom. They are those who have this antichrist spirit to resist, obstruct and speak against Christ. The question is, what spirit opposed Christ and denied His office as chief Messenger of the Covenant? Indeed the larger question is, who is the spirit of antichrist?

1st John 4:3

• "And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world."

According to God's definition of the term, all those who deny Christ as Savior is Antichrist. So what spirit contended with Christ about the body of Moses? Was it a Red supernatural man with horns or was it man with a lawless spirit? The very context of Jude tells us that the word of God is speaking about men who would always gainsay and resist God.

Jude 1:8-10

• "Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
• Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
• But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves."

This refers to Old Covenant Israel whom Christ called the children of the Devil, and how He opened not His mouth against them (although He was the chief messenger) when He was reviled, accused, spoken evil against, persecuted and brought before magistrates. Because He came as the suffering servant to confirm the Covenant before many. This language of Christ not rebuking Satan is taken from

Zechariah 3:1-3

• "And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
• And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
• Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel."

This prophesies of the coming of Christ and how He would cleanse the Lord's servants by taking away their filthy garments bringing them righteousness. The spirit Satan opposed Christ through the leaders of Old Covenant Israel who did everything in their power to resist Him, His kingdom and reign. This is that same spirit of Satan that Christ contended with regarding the body of Moses. It was all those with the spirit of disobedience who rejected Him, His kingdom and Covenant revelation and indeed sought to kill Him because of His teachings concerning this Kingdom. The pertinent questions here are, who is Michael the archangel (Christ, the chief Messenger), when did He contend with the Devil (at the time of His first advent), what is the significance of the body of Moses (the Old Testament Covenant), what is Satan's main modus operandi in opposing Christ (the nature of the Kingdom), what Scriptures support this conclusion (Zechariah, Revelation 12, Jude and Matthew among others) and what was Christ disputing with the evil spirit and adversary about? It was the same thing the Apostle Paul was disputing with the Judaizers about--the very nature and makeup of the law of Moses, Covenant, Kingdom, Reign and Messiah.

Acts 17:17

• "Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him."

The dispute with antichrist is always about the Kingdom of Christ because it is the spirit that opposes all that Christ stands for. The Kingdom wasn't taken from Israel for nothing, it was taken away "because" they opposed and rejected the Messiah of the Bible as God breathed head of that Kingdom. Every spirit that will not confess that Jesus come in the flesh as the prophesied Messaih and ruler of Israel is that spirit of antichrist. Yes, that's unpalatable to some, but it is a Biblical fact. Moreover, what is also a Biblical fact is that these are the people who Christ contended and disputed with about God's law and Covenant with Israel. In reality it was two houses coming against each other. The body of Moses vs the body of Christ. The Old Covenant vs the New. The Law vs Grace. The carnal/physical vs the Spiritual. Jerusalem of this world or heavenly Jerusalem. The list is endless. Here are the list on the next post:

 

[TribulationSigns]

#1. Who is the archangel, Michael - Christ is the chief Messenger of the Covenant, translated arch (chief) and angel (messenger) in the New Testament as found in Revelation chapter 12.

Malachi 3:1

• "Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts."

The word translated messenger there and speaking of Christ, is the same word translated angel. The title "Michael" illustrates God with us, and is Hebrew meaning "who is God," from [mi] meaning who, [ki] meaning because and by extension "is," and [el] meaning "God." Mi'ki'el the chief Messenger of the Covenant. Michael or God with us is the chief messenger of the covenant, and the [aggelos] who fought with Him are the Apostles his servant messengers of the congregation. As I said, two houses with only one victorious.

#2. Who is The Devil - The Devil is the adversarial spirit that rules fallen man and opposes the Lord at every turn. This spirit is called by many names, such as Satan, Antichrist, Baal, Serpent, Dragon, etc. The adversarial spirit in man to disobey is the Devil.

1st Peter 5:8

• "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:"

Just as the king was the adversary when He sought to devour the baby Jesus as soon a it was born, but the wise men warned of the Lord thwarted his plans. The spirit of antichrist reveals himself within men, it's not some supernatural being the stuff that bad exorcist or fallen angel movies are made of. The only exorcism of the evil spirit is through the gospel of Christ via the Holy Spirit that moves that Devil spirit from our person that the spirit of Christ dwell there.

#3. When did Christ or Michael contend or dispute with the Devil - It was at the first advent of Christ, when many messengers were cast out of the Kingdom of Israel, even likened unto stars falling from heaven.

Revelation 12:7-7

• "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
• And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven."

Revelation chapter 12 makes it clear that this contending took place at the time of Christ's first advent when the devil was casting down the ruling stars (messengers) of this woman (Israel) out of the kingdom.

Matthew 23:13

• "But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in."

Christ understood that these messengers were an adversary to the Kingdom. The heads or messengers of Israel were contending with Christ and shutting up His kingdom against men, and this was what is symbolized as the war in the kingdom of heaven that resulted in the messengers being cast out. The warfare in Jerusalem (Isaiah 40:2) that Christ came to put an end to.

Matthew 11:12

• "And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force."

It was because of this reason that the child Jesus was born of the woman Israel. That the violence of her warfare (against God) might come to an end and her iniquity might be pardoned. Indeed it was this prophesy in Isaiah that spoke of the end of this violence in the coming of John the Baptist to herald Christ's appearance.

Isaiah 40:2-3

• "Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD'S hand double for all her sins.
• The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God."

The voice of him that was crying in the wilderness was John the Baptist. Christ contended with the Devil when He contended with the messengers of Israel who had the spirit of antichrist. Traditions notwithstamnding, they were the messengers of heaven led by the Dragon, resisting the chief messenger and practicing rebellion in the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 23:13

• "But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in."

This is the dispute. This is the contention. It is not literal heaven these messengers were in, but Revelation illustrates in symbolic imagery the kingdom of heaven on earth. Exactly as Christ's parables of the Kingdom of heaven illustrates vividly. The Dragon attempted to destroy the man child as soon as it was born through the king on earth, not as beast in heaven standing before a pregnant woman floating in space.

Matthew 2:3-4

• "When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.
• And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born."

Matthew 2:16

• "Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men."

The Serpent within man attempted to destroy the child Christ as soon as it was born--on earth, not as a Dragon in heaven. The Dragon imagery is to illustrate this.

#4. What is the body of Moses - The body of Moses represents the Old Covenant law, just as the body of Christ represents the New Covenant grace. Moses symbolizes the law and Christ symbolizes grace. Get it?! When Christ contended with (or more accurately opposed) the adversary, it was with regards to Old Covenant Israel. That through Him, Israel was a Spiritual kingdom that was no longer under the law called Moses, but under grace (the law being dead).

Acts 15:5

• "But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses."

The body of Moses was a house that was to keeping the law. This verse shows there were those even on the church side that supposed that the servants of God had to keep of the law of Moses as necessary to salvation. But under the New Covenant with Israel, the chief Messenger of the Covenant established the end of the law of Moses. i.e., with the coming of the true, the shadow that prefigured it is passed away.

Romans 10:4-5

• "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
• For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them."

Christ contended with the Devil by contending with those messengers of the Old Covenant who to this day continue to insist on salvation by law.

continue to next post

 

[TribulationSigns]

#5. What is the significance of the body of Moses - The same significance as of the body of Christ. It is a Covenant reference signifying the Lord's promise to His people Israel in the Old and New Dispensation. In other words, in the Old Covenant dispensation Moses brought the people of Israel out of bondage of Egypt and led them to the Promised land physically, but only as a "FIGURE," skia or shadow of the true deliverer of Israel. That's why the children of Israel couldn't enter into the Promised land until after Moses had died, for he represented Old Covenant law. i.e., the significance of the body of Moses is its likeness or imagery of the body of Christ.

Acts 7:36-37

• "He brought them out, after that he had shewed wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red sea, and in the wilderness forty years.
• This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren like unto me; him shall ye hear."

Thus the body of Moses signifies the Old Covenant, and the body of Christ the new Covenant. The old was as the school teacher, the new is the true wherein men may be saved. Indeed, God's word speaks of these two bodies as houses in Hebrews chapter 3. The house of Moses and the house of Christ.

Heb 3:5-6

• "And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
• But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end."

Two houses representing the two Covenants with God's people, only one bringing true deliverance to Israel. This is what Christ contended with those Judaizers who opposed Him. Physical bondage against spiritual bondage, physical rest against spiritual rest, physical kingdom against spiritual kingdom, physical reign against spiritual reign, physical Jew against spiritual Jew, physical war and swords against spiritual warfare, etc. These are the things that were (and still are) in dispute with Israel. And in the end, the builders with the spirit of disobedience lost the kingdom because of that contention or dispute with, and rejection of Christ.


#6. What Scriptures support this conclusion? Actually, all Scripture supports this conclusion. Revelation chapter 12 gives the broad strokes, but throughout the Bible God demonstrates both the continuity and the disconnect between Old Covenant and New, between Law and Grace, between those who are with Him, and those who fight against Him.

Hebrews 8:13

• "In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away."

The Old Covenant outward appearance of the legal administration was to illustrate our helplessness, but the ruling Jews insisted it is a path to righteousness. Likewise, the nation of Israel, the fabric of the temple, he great stones of Gold and Pearls, the beautiful ornaments of the Priests, etc, all had a glory in them that pointed to the true riches. The Old Testament messengers took offense to any idea of the spiritual nature of Israel and the Kingdom. Much as Dispensationalism today that also oppose the spiritual nature of the Kingdom, Jerusalem, Israel, the Jews, the reign and so on. The point is, the shadow which was the body of Moses is passed away in the establishment of the true in the body of Christ.

Selah!

 

[Davy]

Wrong again. That directive in Mark 13 was not given to you and me. It was given in person to Christ's own disciples in that specific time period.

Your teachers have lied to you, because Jesus in Mark 13 was giving HIS CHURCH the signs of the end leading up to His future return. It's nuts to claim that was only for His disciples at His 1st coming simply because those SIGNS in Mark 13 are about the SEALS of Revelation 6...

Rev 6:9-11
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost Thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
KJV

That 5th SEAL is linked to Mark 13:9-13.

And just WHO... did Lord Jesus Christ give His Book of Revelation to through His servant John?...

Rev 1:1-5
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto Him, to shew unto His servants things which must shortly come to pass; and He sent and signified it by His angel unto His servant John:

2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from Him Which is, and Which was, and Which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before His throne;

5 And from Jesus Christ, Who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto Him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in His own blood,
KJV

 

[3 Resurrections]

Your teachers have lied to you, because Jesus in Mark 13 was giving HIS CHURCH the signs of the end leading up to His future return. It's nuts to claim that was only for His disciples at His 1st coming simply because those SIGNS in Mark 13 are about the SEALS of Revelation 6...

This is not coming from any "teacher" whatever, except from the scriptures which I just quoted from your immediate Mark 13 context.

QUESTIONS FOR YOU: Just when are the authorities going to be coming to "deliver you up" to the rulers of a Sanhedrin council which no longer exists?
Also, when are the authorities going to be beating and scourging you in some synagogue?

ANSWER: THEY AREN'T going to. That is because this Mark 13:9-11 prediction was fulfilled long ago for Christ's own disciples as He personally warned them that they would be persecuted by these means. Which they already were as recorded in the book of Acts, just as predicted by Jesus.

You are waaaaaay off in the timing for your interpretations of Mark 13 by not paying attention to the particulars of what Jesus said.