Ordain a Lady

[Pancho Frijoles]

But how can God speak through Mohammed, when the Quran said Jesus did not die, and yet God sent His Son to die for us. Allah is not God.

To me as a Baha’i, and to few Muslims, The Quran doesn't teach that.
It points out to the fact that the murderers of Jesus were deceived by God: they thought they had destroyed the Messiah, but in reality they had only killed the man, the historical character, Yeshuah from Nazareth. Christ lives forever and could not be defeated.

There is only One God Almighty and All Knowing and All Merciful… and this is the God that I worship.

On the other hand, I do not believe that the primary mission of Christ was to die. God sent Him to convey a Message, a message of repentance/ forgiveness and the Kingdom of God…. A Message of love and reconciliation with God… a Message for which he died on the cross.
God and Jesus knew that death was necessary as part of his mission, but that was not their primary objective. Otherwise Jesus would have died much younger or at any of the numerous times his enemies wanted to kill him.

I understand that my Christian friends think differently because atonement by blood is at the center of their faith. In my faith, God forgives because He is merciful to those who come with a humble, contrite heart. God has never needed blood.

 

[Johann]

To me as a Baha’i, and to few Muslims, The Quran doesn't teach that.
It points out to the fact that the murderers of Jesus were deceived by God: they thought they had destroyed the Messiah, but in reality they had only killed the man, the historical character, Yeshuah from Nazareth. Christ lives forever and could not be defeated.

There is only One God Almighty and All Knowing and All Merciful… and this is the God that I worship.

And not Yeshua-got it.

Surah An-Nisa (4:157-158):
"And [for] their saying, 'Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah.' And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain. Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise."

This passage emphasizes that Jesus was not killed or crucified as his enemies believed, but rather it was made to appear so. It asserts that Allah raised Jesus up to Himself, indicating that Jesus was not defeated in any true sense, but rather his mission and status are preserved in a manner beyond human understanding.

--not what my Bible says-Perfect Tense brother.

 

[RedFan]

Women rule over them:

In ancient Hebrew society, the idea of women ruling could be interpreted in different ways. It might suggest a disorderly or chaotic state where societal norms are disrupted. It could also imply that those in leadership roles, whether men or women, are not fulfilling their responsibilities properly.

Or it could be interpreted as male rulers being influenced by their wives/concubines. Or, perhaps, that the male rulers in question were somehow effeminate. But what there is no historical evidence of is actual women rulers in Isaiah's Judah.

 

[Johann]

Or it could be interpreted as male rulers being influenced by their wives/concubines. Or, perhaps, that the male rulers in question were somehow effeminate. But what there is no historical evidence of is actual women rulers in Isaiah's Judah.

Correct-

Yes, it is generally accepted among historians and biblical scholars that there is no direct historical evidence of women rulers in Judah during the period when Isaiah prophesied. The kings and rulers mentioned in the historical records of Judah from that time are predominantly male.

The biblical text itself primarily refers to male rulers, such as kings and officials. Women are occasionally mentioned in various roles, such as queens (like Athaliah in 2 Kings 11) or influential figures (like Jezebel in 1 Kings), but there is no explicit evidence of a woman holding the official position of ruler or king in Judah during Isaiah's time.

Isaiah's criticism in Isaiah 3:12-13 about "women ruling over them" likely refers to a metaphorical or rhetorical use of the term, emphasizing the disorder or societal breakdown rather than indicating literal female rulers. It reflects a broader critique of leadership and governance during that era rather than a specific historical claim about women in rulership positions.

 

[Matthias]

In Isaiah 3:12-13 (NLT), the context describes a situation where the prophet Isaiah is condemning the state of leadership and governance among the people of Judah. Here’s an analysis of the context:

Childish leaders oppress my people:

This statement highlights the failure of the current leadership to provide wise and just governance. The term "childish" suggests immaturity, irresponsibility, and a lack of wisdom in decision-making.
Women rule over them:

In ancient Hebrew society, the idea of women ruling could be interpreted in different ways. It might suggest a disorderly or chaotic state where societal norms are disrupted. It could also imply that those in leadership roles, whether men or women, are not fulfilling their responsibilities properly.
Your leaders mislead you; they send you down the wrong road:

The leaders are accused of leading the people astray, either through incompetence, corruption, or by following misguided policies. This has resulted in the people being led down a path that is contrary to God’s will and detrimental to their well-being.
The LORD takes his place in court and presents his case against his people:

This signifies a judicial metaphor where God is portrayed as a plaintiff in a court of law, presenting evidence against His own people. It suggests that God is about to bring judgment upon them for their disobedience and failure to uphold justice and righteousness.
Overall, Isaiah 3:12-13 depicts a state of moral and political decay among the leadership of Judah. The leaders are criticized for their incompetence, their failure to provide just governance, and their role in leading the people astray. This passage serves as a warning of impending judgment from God due to the corruption and unfaithfulness of the leaders and the people.

J.

What happened to them is an example to us.

Lesson not learned -> “Don’t listen to Paul because I can lead the way.”

 

[RedFan]

Allah is not God.

The Qur’an teaches that Allah is the same God as the God of Jews and Christians. “Our god and your god are one” (29:46)

 

[Matthias]

The Qur’an teaches that Allah is the same God as the God of Jews and Christians. “Our god and your god are one” (29:46)

Do you believe that teaching is correct?

Allah isn’t the Triune God. Muslims aren’t trinitarians. Neither are Jews. Neither are all Christians.

Pretty wild that this is connected with the ordain a lady campaign.

 

[Johann]

The Qur’an teaches that Allah is the same God as the God of Jews and Christians. “Our god and your god are one” (29:46)

This is where I part ways with you-correct to put the "g" in the lower case.

 

[RedFan]

Do you believe that teaching is correct?

Allah isn’t the Triune God. Muslims aren’t trinitarians. Neither are Jews. Neither are all Christians.

Pretty wild that this is connected with the ordain a lady campaign.

Yes, we are wandering a bit on the road to Mecca.

But I do believe that "the Father" in my Triune God (I believe in One God, the Father Almighty -- to steal a Nicene phrase) is what Muslims refer to as Allah, what Jews refer to as Yahweh, and what non-Trinitarian Christians refer to as simply "God" -- and while we disagree on His nature, the reference in each religion is to the Supreme Being we all worship in different understandings.

This topic probably deserves its own post.

 

[Matthias]

Yes, we are wandering a bit on the road to Mecca.

But I do believe that "the Father" in my Triune God (I believe in One God, the Father Almighty -- to steal a Nicene phrase) is what Muslims refer to as Allah, what Jews refer to as Yahweh, and what non-Trinitarian Christians refer to as simply "God" -- and while we disagree on His nature, the reference in each religion is to the Supreme Being we all worship in different understandings.

This topic probably deserves its own post.

Thanks. It’s complicated with the Abrahamic religions, as they all lay claim to Abraham. The devil, truly, is in the details.

That there is a connection between the spirit of the Allah of the Quran with the spirit guiding the feminist movement of the WOC and the words (“my words are spirit”) of its lady priests - “Don’t listen to Paul,” which my Muslim friend implied in our conversations about the God of Abraham - would serve as a confirmation that is the same spirit that is guiding Islam.

Where would the spirit of the lady priests lead those who sit under their teaching? Ultimately, and logically, to the same place where the spirit of Islam is leading Muslims.

Test the spirits (1 John 4:1).

The spirit which says “Don’t listen to Paul” doesn’t sound like the spirit of the God of Paul.

 

[Johann]

Thanks. It’s complicated with the Abrahamic religions, as they all lay claim to Abraham. The devil, truly, is in the details.

That there is a connection between the spirit of the Allah of the Quran with the spirit guiding the feminist movement of the WOC and the words (“my words are spirit”) of its lady priests - “Don’t listen to Paul,” which my Muslim friend implied in our conversations about the God of Abraham - would serve as a confirmation that is the same spirit that is guiding Islam.

Where would the spirit of the lady priests lead those who sit under their teaching? Ultimately, and logically, to the same place where the spirit of Islam is leading Muslims.

Test the spirits (1 John 4:1).

The spirit which says “Don’t listen to Paul” doesn’t sound like the spirit of the God of Paul.

Unflinching, face set like flint, fighting the good fight.
J.

 

[BlessedPeace]

Why would you be puzzled? If a person walks into a church and sees a lot of women wearing a hijab, which basically declares a woman to be Muslim, what would they assume, if no one else is wearing one?
There is no scriptural reason for women to wear a head covering….unless one is assuming a role that is normally assigned to a brother. Praying in his presence and wearing a head covering is showing submission to God’s arrangement of headship. A sign even to the angels.

1 Cor 11:7-10…
”For a man should not have his head covered, as he is God’s image and glory, but the woman is man’s glory. 8 For man did not come from woman, but woman came from man. 9 And what is more, man was not created for the sake of the woman, but woman for the sake of the man. 10 That is why the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head, because of the angels.”

In today’s world that would not sit too well, but if we remember back to the creation of Adam and Eve that Paul alludes to here, we see that the gender roles were specific and complimented each other. There was no competition, and if everyone humbly kept their God assigned place, there is no room for complaint….it doesn’t make women second class citizens but cherished in the role that God gave them.


I have not seen any depiction of women in Bible times wearing a hijab as if a single strand of hair showing was obscene. It is God given and a glory to women. And remember too that a head covering was a protection from the Middle Eastern sun.
A Catholic nun’s habit was closer to a hijab for some reason that escapes me….

JW‘s have no religious traditions that are borrowed from paganism because we are forbidden in scripture to pollute our worship with the trappings of false worship. There is nothing “Christian” about Christmas, birthdays or Easter.…which today are celebrated as commercial events in most parts of the world……Since these originated in false worship we will not celebrate them. (2 Cor 6:14-18) We will instead celebrate things that are important to us personally, and which do not go against Christ’s teachings.
Did you never wonder why every single religious observance held in Christendom is not of Christian origin?


……well, our choice of toiletries is not exactly a religious decision. But the doctrines that Christendom holds are not scripturally based. Most are rebranded adoptions from paganism. We can discuss them if you like, perhaps on another thread……?

Adam and Eve were equals,one. They were both created in God's image and likeness.

"Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh." Genesis 2:24.

 

[Cassandra]

To me as a Baha’i, and to few Muslims, The Quran doesn't teach that.
It points out to the fact that the murderers of Jesus were deceived by God: they thought they had destroyed the Messiah, but in reality they had only killed the man, the historical character, Yeshuah from Nazareth. Christ lives forever and could not be defeated.

There is only One God Almighty and All Knowing and All Merciful… and this is the God that I worship.

On the other hand, I do not believe that the primary mission of Christ was to die. God sent Him to convey a Message, a message of repentance/ forgiveness and the Kingdom of God…. A Message of love and reconciliation with God… a Message for which he died on the cross.
God and Jesus knew that death was necessary as part of his mission, but that was not their primary objective. Otherwise Jesus would have died much younger or at any of the numerous times his enemies wanted to kill him.

I understand that my Christian friends think differently because atonement by blood is at the center of their faith. In my faith, God forgives because He is merciful to those who come with a humble, contrite heart. God has never needed blood.

That's kinda funny about the blood thing you write, because God required animal sacrifices to point to the Sacrifice of His Son. He certainly did not delight in folk just slaying animals for the heck of it. He set up an entire sacrificial system, and a sanctuary. That wasn't for funsies.

And what is this?
Jesus is not with Allah. He is with His Father. Allah has no son. My Bible says Jesus was crucified. Cant have both.
And Women 4:171 say that Jesus was just a messenger. (My copy says Women as the chapter head but An-Nisa is the name on here)

 

[Johann]

That's kinda funny about the blood thing you write, because God required animal sacrifices to point to the Sacrifice of His Son. He certainly did not delight is folk just slaying animals for the heck of it. He set up an entire sacrificial system, and a sanctuary. That wasn't for funsies.

And what is this?View attachment 46527
Jesus is not with Allah. He is with His Father. Allah has no son.
And Women 4:171 say that Jesus was just a messenger. (My copy says Women as the chapter head but An-Nisa is the name on here)

Excellent! And there are more Surah's!

 

[Behold]

On the other hand, I do not believe that the primary mission of Christ was to die.

Had Jesus not died on The Cross, there would be no Christianity.

So, the "primary reason" Jesus came here was to Create Christianity, to create the WAY.... John 14:6.... that a sinner can regain Spiritual Unity with God, forever.

Some who dont understand anything about Christ, or God, or The Cross of Christ.... would proclaim, out of their own foolish deception, that God would accept them based on their behavior, as if their behavior could be considered to be EQUAL to the Sinless Son of God.

Imagine the PRIDE LEVEL found in this one.......

so....Here is their Answer, as God provided it for these "types"..

John 3:36

 

[Johann]

On the other hand, I do not believe that the primary mission of Christ was to die.

Your statement "I do not believe that the primary mission of Christ was to die" is contrary to several passages in the New Testament that clearly state that Jesus' death was central to His mission. Here are relevant scriptures that emphasize the primary purpose of Christ's coming was to die for the sins of humanity:

Matthew 20:28 (KJV)

"Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many."
This verse clearly states that Jesus came to give His life as a ransom, indicating that His death was a primary purpose of His mission.
Mark 10:45 (KJV)

"For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many."
Similar to Matthew 20:28, this passage reiterates that Jesus came to give His life for others.
John 10:11 (KJV)

"I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep."
Jesus identifies Himself as the Good Shepherd who lays down His life for His sheep, underscoring the sacrificial nature of His mission.
John 12:27 (KJV)

"Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour."
Jesus acknowledges that He came specifically for the purpose of the hour of His suffering and death.
John 19:30 (KJV)

"When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."
Jesus' declaration "It is finished" signifies the completion of His mission to atone for sin through His death.
Romans 5:8 (KJV)

"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."
This verse explicitly states that Christ died for us, highlighting the purpose of His coming.
1 Corinthians 15:3-4 (KJV)

"For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures."
Paul emphasizes that Christ's death for our sins is of primary importance, according to the scriptures.
Galatians 1:4 (KJV)

"Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father."
Jesus gave Himself for our sins, which was according to God's will.
1 Peter 2:24 (KJV)

"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed."
Peter states that Jesus bore our sins on the cross, affirming the sacrificial aspect of His mission.
1 John 3:5 (KJV)

"And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin."
This verse explains that Jesus was manifested to take away our sins, which involved His death.
These scriptures collectively affirm that the primary mission of Christ was indeed to die for the sins of humanity, offering Himself as a sacrifice to bring salvation to all who believe.

Cheers
J.

 

[Cassandra]

As an aside I found a piece of literature regarding Jesus. called "Jesus in Islam". If you have time:

Jesus in Islam: A Messenger of God in the Quran

Learn about the Islamic perspective on Jesus, who Muslims believe was a messenger of God. The miracles he performed, his message of peace & his legacy in Islam.

www.whyislam.org

 

[Johann]

As an aside I found a piece of literature regarding Jesus. called "Jesus in Islam". If you have time:

Jesus in Islam: A Messenger of God in the Quran

Learn about the Islamic perspective on Jesus, who Muslims believe was a messenger of God. The miracles he performed, his message of peace & his legacy in Islam.

www.whyislam.org

“[They] said, ‘We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of God.’ They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, though it was made to appear like that to them; those that disagreed about him are full of doubt, with no knowledge to follow, only supposition: they certainly did not kill him – God raised him up to Himself. God is Almighty and Wise” (4:157-158)

Hence, Islam teaches that God rescued the noble Jesus by removing him from this world. God raised him to the heavens, to a place near Him, and will cause him to return to this world at a later time.

Jesus in Islam: A Prophet, Not the Son of God
With their messenger gone, the devoted followers of Jesus tried to maintain the purity and clarity of his teachings. However, in the next few centuries, different beliefs about Jesus developed amongst some of the early Christians. They held that he was divine, calling him the son of God, which eventually became the dominant Christian belief. In contrast, others maintained he was not the literal son of God or God Himself, but a messenger sent by the One God. Muslims share this second view of the early Christians, holding that Jesus was sent to guide his people just like the other prophets before him. (See: Who was Jesus According to Jesus?)

““[This is] a statement of the Truth about which they are in doubt: it would not befit God to have a child. He is far above that: when He decrees something, He says only, ‘Be,’ and it is.” (Quran, 19:34-35)”

Restoring Jesus’ Legacy
Muslims believe that every nation received a messenger from God. Just like the prophets before him, Jesus’ message lasted in its original purity for a period of time, but the scripture he received was slowly altered and his original call to absolute monotheism became corrupted. Six centuries after Jesus, God sent His last messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him) and revealed His final scripture, known as the Quran. Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was sent to all of humanity and he confirmed the miraculous birth of Jesus, the miracles he performed and the essential truth of the message that God chose to reveal through Jesus. The Quran has been preserved in its exact original form for over 14 centuries. Through this final revelation, God protects His guidance for the entire human race, containing the same core message sent to all prophets and messengers of the One God, including Jesus, Moses, Abraham and Noah, peace be upon them.

According to the Quran, Jesus himself puts any false claims about his identity to rest: “‘I told them only what You commanded me to: “Worship God, my Lord and your Lord.” I was a witness over them during my time among them. Ever since You took my soul, You alone have been the watcher over them: You are witness to all things’” (5:117).

How Muslims Follow the Original Message of Jesus
Today, Muslims seek to follow the original message of Jesus and all the prophets before him as confirmed by God’s final messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him) Islam literally means ‘submission’ to God and is the same way of life followed by all the messengers of God. Only by following the original call of God’s messengers can we find clear direction and tranquility in our lives.

Suggested Reading:

Muhammad by Yahiya Emerick

The Cross & The Crescent by Jerald Dirks

Note: The “peace be upon him” next to Prophet Muhammad represents the invocation Muslims say with his name as a form of respect.

In Islam, Jesus is a Messenger of Allah (God) and the Messiah who was sent to guide the Children of Israel with a new scripture, the Gospel. The belief in Jesus (and all other messengers of God) is required in Islam, and a requirement of being a Muslim. The Quran mentions Jesus by name twenty-five times. It confirms miraculous birth of Jesus to Mary. Imam Suhaib Webb discusses briefly his life and miracles.

From the link

 

[Aunty Jane]

Adam and Eve were equals,one. They were both created in God's image and likeness.

"Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh." Genesis 2:24.

Which is what I said basically…
To quote….”In today’s world that would not sit too well, but if we remember back to the creation of Adam and Eve that Paul alludes to here, we see that the gender roles were specific and complimented each other. There was no competition, and if everyone humbly kept their God assigned place, there is no room for complaint….it doesn’t make women second class citizens but cherished in the role that God gave them.”

Each role was different in the marriage relationship….and God ordained….there is one “head” and there is the support for his role with a role that is complimentary, not competitive.
“But I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn, the head of a woman is the man; in turn, the head of the Christ is God.” (1 Cor 11:3)
Even Christ has a head over him, and there was never any competition. Jesus only ever taught what his Father taught him.

It’s the reason why there are not two sets of controls in a motor vehicle….one driver determines the direction that the vehicle goes, but the passenger can act as a navigator.….complimentary roles. Headship is not dictatorship. Male dominated societies took headship and made it into a subjugation of women and devalued them. God never did that.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Maybe we can gain a deeper understanding from the Jewish customs and cultures?

And here lies the root of the problem as I see it….”The Church“ was to fall away from the teachings of Christ, just as the Jews fell away from the teachings of Moses. An apostasy was foretold….“wicked men and imposters” were to infiltrate the faith and lead it away from the true God…….they introduced traditions and adopted practices that seemed to have validity, but were completely opposite.

What was Jesus’ reaction to the leaders of his own faith? He said that their traditions had invalidated God’s word and that they were leading others to Gehenna. (Matt 15:7-9; Matt 23:13-15; 33)

Anything written after the death of the apostles is not considered “Scripture” because with John’s final contribution, the canon was closed. We have to remember that it wasn’t the RCC who decided what was to be included in God’s word because they initially got it wrong by including writings that were subsequently eliminated because they were contradictory and out of place in the narrative. God’s word is his, not theirs, as they claim. He was the one who decided what was to be included in the finished product….he used whoever was available at the time.

I view the Talmud much like the Catholic catechism…..a work of men who had drifted away from the God they purported to worship….teaching a perversion of what Christ and his apostles left….but that was prophesied and we cannot fail to see in the confusion that now masquerades as “Christianity”, the fulfillment of his words.
This current discussion on the “ordination of women priests” is a complete departure from anything taught in scripture…..women are no longer content in a complimentary role but now are in competition. The fact that there was no “ordination of priests” in the first century seems to make no difference to their quest for equality. “Don’t listen to Paul”……serious apostasy upon apostasy.

Those chosen for a role in heaven were not to receive their priesthood until after their resurrection. (Rev 20:6) The first century Christians had no priests or clergy…they had elders and deacons to assist them, but there were no special robes, titles and authority to lord it over anyone because as Jesus said…”all you are brothers”……meaning there was no specific pastor or priest officiating in the congregation which was now formed as a team of preachers…..trained and educated to take Christ’s message out to the people. There was no temple, no liturgy, no repetitive prayers, no distinctive garments or titles because all served their God and each other without such distinctions. Those who took the lead were spiritually qualified by God to do so. Their qualifications had more than their gender to offer. These “shepherds”, in contrast with the Pharisees, rendered service based on love and mercy, not judgment and self aggrandizement. Every lamb was precious.

The process of compiling these texts took place over several centuries, reflecting the oral traditions, rabbinical discussions, and legal interpretations that evolved from the post-Second Temple period through late antiquity. While the Talmud itself was compiled after the time of early Christianity, it reflects Jewish customs and practices that were already in existence and influential during the first century.

Your thoughts @Aunty Jane?

This answers your own question Johann…
”The process of compiling these texts took place over several centuries, reflecting the oral traditions, rabbinical discussions, and legal interpretations that evolved from the post-Second Temple period through late antiquity.”
This is the work of men removed from the influence of first century Christianity and serving the interests of those who took the “Christian” faith down a very dark path.…one that has led to the situation we have now…..where is Christ in all that confusion?
He is there but it’s like trying to find a diamond in a pile of broken glass…..only God can lead right hearted ones to it. (John 6:44; 65)