Ordain a Lady

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Pancho Frijoles

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The very reason why we are to be preachers is to offer God’s truth in the same way as Jesus taught his first century disciples. (Matt 10:11-14) It is offered, but not forced. We choose what to believe.
Hi Aunty Jane

My apologies for not having answered before.
I agree with many of the things you have stated, obviously not all of them as we profess different system of beliefs.
I prefer not to comment on the issue of idolatry and the external signs of reverence to statues, to keep with the main topic that @Matthias chose for this thread, which is the priesthood of women.
However, I look forward to keep talking to you in other threads about this and other subjects.
If you are interested, please visit the "Interfaith Dialogue" subforum and open a thread about the topic you would like to discuss.

May God continue to bless you and your family.
 
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Pancho Frijoles

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“… this is crazy But God just called me.”

She knows it’s crazy.

If God called Paul, he didn’t call this lady.

God called Paul.
Hi Matthias, Good morning

I'd be interested in knowing how you perceived the African cultures you had contact with, in terms of the leadership of women in social and religious affairs.
 

Matthias

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Hi Matthias, Good morning

I'd be interested in knowing how you perceived the African cultures you had contact with, in terms of the leadership of women in social and religious affairs.

I was in Malawi, Mozambique, Zimbabwe and Kenya. In all of them I encountered Christian women, Muslim women and pagan women.

The social aspect was interesting. I’ll focus on Christians in this post. There is some, but not much, to tell about the Muslims and pagans.

The Christian women were busy but social, and the Christian men tended not to understand why I wanted to spend any time with them. It wasn’t that they were jealous but rather that the women were the workers and the men were the idlers. There were exceptions but that was the general tenor. My speaking with the women was typically seen by men as foolish (on my part), as an intrusion, keeping them from their work. My speaking with women was typically seen by women as an oddity; they smiled, laughed and welcomed my conversation. They seemed surprised, and were flattered, that I took an interest in them. They seldom stopped working for long. They were the family breadwinners.

A few stories for flavor.

When people knew ahead of time that I was going to be visiting their village I was often met with a warm reception - women lined up and singing. Men were there but it was only the women who sang.

There wasn’t a lot of food in the villages, and what food there was typically consisted of roots and the equivalent of grits. Meat was scarce, a luxury, and the people seldom ate it. Women delighted in offering me food to eat. On one occasion the people in a small village had prepared a special treat for me - a basket of fish heads! I don’t care for fish, but only fish heads was particularly unappetizing. The men looked solemn, the women expectant, the children curious. I thanked them for their great generosity. Smiles abounded all around. I explained that I had just eaten before my arrival - smiles were replaced by disappointment - and told them that nothing would please me more than to share their gift to me with them. Smiles returned and the basket of fish heads was passed around. The people - men, women and children - ate them as if they eating apples. It was like a holiday to them. They were so happy, and I was happy - for them and for gracefully finding a way out of eating fish heads.

One day I visited a larger village. The women were busy cooking grits and talking among themselves. The men were in a separate group, far removed from the women. I spoke with the men first and then asked if it would be okay for me to speak with the women. They said that they didn’t mind but it was obvious that I was asking to do something that simply was outside of the norm.

The women were friendly but it was also obvious that they were now outside of their norm. I asked them about the food they were preparing. They said it was almost ready to eat and invited me have some. Since I was a guest, they invited me to be the first to eat. This presented me with two small problems: (1) As a pastor, I customarily am the last one to put food on my plate; if there is barely enough to go around, others will eat and I’ll be fine with little or nothing. (2) There were no plates or eating utensils. Everyone takes turns plunging a hand into the pot, men first.

After a prayer, all eyes were on me. I was holding up the line. Setting my custom aside, I approached the large pot, then, with a smile on my face, glanced around. The men were stoic, the women had warm smiles on their faces and the children were still curious about this outsider - for many of them had never seen a white person before; and to keep them in line, so I was told, parents would tell their misbehaving children that if they didn’t behave that a white man would come and carry them off in the night - I was the boogeyman they feared, dreaded and hoped wasn’t real.

I asked them how to eat the grits. One of the women told me to stick in my hand, pull out a handful, roll it into a ball, put it in my mouth, chew and swallow. I laughed! When I did, everyone did. Go time. I thrust my hand into the pot - uh oh. The villagers’ hands were calloused, mine weren’t. I quickly withdrew my burned hand from the boiling pot of grits and started wringing the grits off of it. The men were perturbed, the women and children were laughing hysterically. I licked the remaining grits from my aching hand and pronounced it delicious. (It was.) The women were delighted! The line started moving and everyone had enough to eat.

Oh, but there’s more. As I watched them going through the line, I noticed a woman walking past with a bucket of water on her head. I commented that it didn’t look easy to do. The women laughed and said they had been doing it since they were girls and it was very easy to do. I asked if it would be okay for me to try it.

There was a moment of silence. Everyone was surprised that I would ask such a thing. This was woman’s work. The men were clearly unhappy and the women didn’t know quote what to say. It was an awkward moment. Then one of the women handed me a bucket filled with water and demonstrated how she effortlessly put it on her head. She removed the bucket from her head and handed it to me. The moment was frozen in time. Everyone just stared, waiting to see what I would do. I wondered myself - then acted.

I placed the bucket on my head. It was heavy. I glanced around. It was like looking into the faces of the dead. I’m sure they were alive and breathing but it was clear that we were all in unfamiliar territory. I took a step or two and felt the bucket shift on my head. There was a gasp. I’m not sure if it was me or someone else; probably several, including me. Another critical moment. What to do?

I was standing near a building. Thinking quickly, I took a step and disappeared from their view. I quickly dumped out the water and reemerged from behind the building - with the bucket upside down on my head and it covering my face. I stumbled around and then whipped off the bucket, revealing a big smile on my face. The crowd erupted in laughter! I returned the bucket to the woman who had handed it to me. She was laughing so hard that the bucket dropped harmlessly to the ground. I was swarmed with women and children. One of the men told me a little later that he thought I handled it cleverly but shouldn’t have, wouldn’t have, found myself in the predicament if had abstained from doing women’s work.

More later.
 

Pancho Frijoles

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Lovely story, Matthias!
Have you ever thought in writing your memories?
I'm thinking about, say, a collection of your 20 best memories, and after each story, making a comment on how that impacted you from that moment, or how you used that story to convey a message to your congregation, etc. I would help you with AI for the generation of images :)

Yes, when women have a proven record of great performance in any task, it is wise to let them do it. Same with men.
Certainly, women and men can and should learn from each other to perform, at individual level, the same task as needed, but in principle, if it isn't broken, don't break it!

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ScottA

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“Founded in 1975, the Women’s Ordination Conference (WOC) is a grass-roots driven movement that promotes activism, dialogue, and prayerful witness to call for women’s ordination and gender equity in the Roman Catholic Church.”

This is a music video the WOC produced for the cause.


The lyric which caught my attention: ”Don’t listen to Saint Paul, ’Cuz I can lead the way.”

Setting aside that this a Roman Catholic fight, it is an issue that has come up and continues to come up in Protestant circles.

”Don’t listen to Saint Paul” is an argument which I don’t find persuasive.

Can that hurdle be cleared using scripture?
Just seeing this for the first time...

Apparently, most men in ministry don't have a clear understanding of God's intentional creation of mankind as male and female, or they would teach it, and we wouldn't have this problem.

Yes, it's a problem.

It's a problem because the "image" of man as male and female--is not for liberation--but is a revelation. It was not until Christ (a male) referred to Himself and the Bridegroom, that the revelation was made clear. And thus, should be clear. Meaning, all the church is as the woman, taken out of the man. In this case, as taken out of God and Christ, to then be one again in marriage. Thus, the roles given to the man and to the woman (especially within the church) are there to continue the revelation that we are taken out of God to come of age and return, as a witness to every generation.

Does that make men better than women? No, but rather all equal as if women before God. Both have abused their respective roles: Men as lording over women, and women as if they were given their role equally. Indeed we are all equal before God, but our roles were not appointed to us as equals. Sadly, there is honor in both roles, if it is not abused or disregarded. Is it not enough that God has thought of us each as being equally worthy to portray Him in his salvation plans and message as a light unto all the world? Indeed it is, but many have not understood, nor cared to.
 

Matthias

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Lovely story, Matthias!

The people in the countries I visited in Africa left me with many fond memories.

Have you ever thought in writing your memories?

No. The memories, for the most part, will die with me. A few will live on for a while in family and friends. I have sometimes wondered how many of the people I met there would remember me. (Kind of hard to forget the boogeyman with a bucket on his head playing the part of a fool to get himself out of a jam of his own making?) Few of them could afford the expense of writing down their memoirs.

I'm thinking about, say, a collection of your 20 best memories, and after each story, making a comment on how that impacted you from that moment, or how you used that story to convey a message to your congregation, etc. I would help you with AI for the generation of images :)

Now you’ve set me to dreaming!

Yes, when women have a proven record of great performance in any task, it is wise to let them do it. Same with men.

The women in the villages “stayed in their lane.“ They had well-defined roles in the culture and I sensed that the roles hadn’t changed much over the centuries. It was a little different in the large cities (Blantyre, Lilongwe, Harare, Nairobi and Kisumu). The majority of my time was spent in the villages.

Certainly, women and men can and should learn from each other to perform, at individual level, the same task as needed, but in principle, if it isn't broken, don't break it!

Everything in Africa felt broken. Poverty was common. I met a man digging a trench with an ancient looking shovel in Kenya one day. He was alone, the trench was around 8 feet deep and there was no shoring to prevent cave-ins. The man told me that he hadn’t had the job very long - the only reason he had it was because the man who had the job before he did was killed when the trench he was digging collapsed. The man said he worked 10 hours a day, 6 days per week, and earned the equivalent of $1.00 per day in U.S. currency. He told me how blessed he was to have the opportunity to provide for his family.

“African time” is real. Nothing runs on time. If someone living in a village told me they would meet me in the city at 10:00 a.m. it might be 2:00 p.m. before they arrived. It’s not that they aren’t mindful of the time, nor is that they don’t respect other people’s time. Transportation is unreliable.

I lost a substantial amount of weight while I was there. In the villages, they typically ate three meals, but sometimes only two - grits for breakfast, grits for dinner, grits for supper. There was greater variety in the cities, but I ate some things that were said to be one thing but had to have been another. (I ordered beef at a restaurant one day. Two hours later it was served. I’d almost be willing to bet it was a water buffalo. I hope that’s what it was!)

The women in the cities were different from the women in the villages. They had more opportunity. I would sometimes see a woman walking in the city with a basket on her head filled with bread or fruit, but never a bucket of water. They worked as maids in hotels and clerks in stores. On the streets they were seldom alone. I didn’t have much contact with them but, when I did, they were reserved. In some ways, I think the women in the villages were better off socially; not economically.

I’ve already mentioned in another conversation with you how the women in the city dressed differently from the women in the villages. The clothing of men was usually drab, whether in the city or in the village. The clothing of the women was usually bright, whether in the city or in the village. I remember thinking that it is the opposite in nature, where the males among birds are the colorful and the females the drab.

It was rare for me to be invited into a home, city or village. Home furnishings were sparse, especially in the villages. I think I mentioned somewhere an incident where I visited a small village one day in the mountains where there was only one chair in the entire village. The chair belonged to the village chief. He wasn’t there the day that I arrived and I was quite to content to sit on a boulder. The people insisted that I sit in the chief’s chair and a young man ran to retrieve it and bring for me to sit in under a tree. I was treated as royalty. I wanted to ask the people questions about their lives. They wanted to hear Bible stories, especially stories about Jesus.

There were no Bibles, nor books of any kind, in the village. (Some villages had a few books; Bibles were rare. Even in the cities, I met people who said they wanted to own a Bible but weren’t financially able to purchase one.) The women (and children), it seemed to me, were more keen to hear the biblical stories than were the men. Women listened intently but didn’t ask questions. Men listened, but not as intently. When a question was asked it was always asked by a man. This was the pattern everywhere that I went.

Leadership among women within the family structure existed, but it was private rather than public.

I’ll pause here before commenting further in another post on the role of women in formal religious. affairs.

I think it’s important for me to say that what I’m recounting here is my experience with the culture, the experiences of others might be different. Also, my travels were to only countries, and all in the same geographic area of the continent. Africa is a big place! My experience in southeast Africa wouldn’t be the same experience in, say, North Africa.

Even in the countries I visited, there were regions in each one which were predominately Christian, or predominately Muslim. My trips were limited, by design, to areas which were predominately Christian. Encounters with other religions in those areas occurred but were outliers. That should be kept in mind when reading about my perception of the roles of women there.


Love the illustration!
 
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Matthias

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The only churches I visited, with one exception, were churches connected with the Church of God, Abrahamic Faith. (The one exception was a Pentecostal church, in Kenya.)

I spoke regularly in the COG churches on weekdays, training men for the ministry. Women didn’t attend the meetings. COG permits female pastors (something which I’m not in agreement with) but, to the best of my knowledge, there are no COG female pastors leading churches in Africa.

The women were busy with their daily work. Most of the men were farmers, and this was a time of year when they weren’t working their fields. They had few animals to tend - when they did, the animals were chickens.

Women attended church services but didn’t have leadership roles. They were fully engaged in singing hymns and listened intently during sermons. The sermons were delivered only by men. The preaching was traditional. (I’m not a traditional preacher. I’m a dialogue preacher.) No one but the pastor spoke during the sermon or asked questions afterward.

The Pentecostal church I was invited to visit (while teaching at a seminary in Kenya as a guest lecturer) was very different from the COG churches. The theology was different and the participation - by men and women - was different. The pastor was male. There was shouting and dancing going on during the services. While the women didn’t deliver the sermon, they freely milled about the sanctuary (as did the men) and prophesied as they were moved to do so. There was no speaking one at a time. The noise was deafening. The pastor tried to speak above the noise of the crowd but he was largely drowned out. The service lasted for several hours; three hours in my memory. (COG services typically lasted an hour.)

I passed other churches - in cities, not in villages - and saw men and women entering. I don’t know what they did after they went inside. Almost all of the Christian churches I saw were Roman Catholic. I don’t believe any of them had women priests.

My perception is that female pastors weren’t common in any of the countries I visited. I had one female translator in COG churches where I spoke. No one raised any objection or expressed any concerns about a female translating my sermons as I was delivering a sermon, or lecturing on weekdays. (I spoke in English - though occasionally I learned and used a phrase from one of the native languages.) It was clear to everyone that the sermons and lectures were mine, not hers.
 
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Matthias

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“It’s safe to say that when it comes to women in the clergy, the vast majority of Catholics care, but not that much. And that is directly related to the fact that the vast majority of Catholics care about their faith, but not that much - or at least not enough to set foot inside a church very often. …

What’s clear is that, for now at least, few women sitting in the pews seem to care that much.”

 

Matthias

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From my X / Twitter ”For you” feed.

A Catholic women’s group is calling for women to boycott Lent.


***

We will no longer wait until ordained men decide the time is right.

We are calling on the women of the church to join the Women’s Ordination Conference in striking from sexism by withholding time, labor, and financial resources from the church during Lent 2025.

We believe the time is ‘ripe’ to demand what is right, and so we are launching Catholic Women Strike, a global effort to disrupt the status quo. Instead of waiting for a papal ‘yes,’ we issue forth our ‘no’ to the systems of misogyny, sexism, and patriarchy that seek to stop the Holy Spirit.


I don’t know the exact connection between these two Catholic women’s groups but they share the same goal.
 

Matthias

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“The Catholic Women’s Strike is encouraging women to ‘strike’ from the church during Lent in order to demand the creation of priestesses

Participants are expected to wear red to Mass and to register officially with ‘Father Anne’, the global organizer of the strike”


Father Anne? How will the Catholic Church respond to this?
 

Aunty Jane

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From my X / Twitter ”For you” feed.

A Catholic women’s group is calling for women to boycott Lent.


***

We will no longer wait until ordained men decide the time is right.

We are calling on the women of the church to join the Women’s Ordination Conference in striking from sexism by withholding time, labor, and financial resources from the church during Lent 2025.

We believe the time is ‘ripe’ to demand what is right, and so we are launching Catholic Women Strike, a global effort to disrupt the status quo. Instead of waiting for a papal ‘yes,’ we issue forth our ‘no’ to the systems of misogyny, sexism, and patriarchy that seek to stop the Holy Spirit.


I don’t know the exact connection between these two Catholic women’s groups but they share the same goal.
I have to ask...where is God in all of this?
Do humans have to lobby God for a change that they believe deserves his attention?

I guess if you believe that humans have to lobby God to make someone a “saint”....you believe that humans control God...not the other way around. :no reply: