The Galilean wedding is the model for the pre-trib rapture

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marks

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If you knew what the Great Tribulation entails,you would realize why God's Elect would not suffer so.
Not that I consider this "Scriptural proof", yet, for me, the One Whom I know, is this His plan for me?

Revelation 9:3-6 KJV
3) And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4) And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5) And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6) And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

I don't see that. Yet only those 144,000 sealed are exempt.

Much love!
 

MA2444

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Here's another passage which supports pre trib.

Revelation 7:2-4 KJV
2) And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3) Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4) And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

"the servants of God" is an inclusive term, therefore, the only servants of God on earth at this time are all Israelites, and there are only 144,000 of them.

What happened to the church? Where did it go?

Exactly. The church is gone. The Great Trib is mostly about Israel not accepting Jesus as their Messiah. So the tibualation is at least a twofold reason for happening. To bring Israel as a nation back unto Him as their God and people with a saving knowledge of Jesus the Christ. But they a strong headed people. 400 years in Egypt didnt do it. WW II claimed 1 out of 3 Jews from off of the earth. WW III (The great trib) will claim 2 out of 3 but a remnant is left. 144,000 I'm pretty sure like you say.

Jesus told them that He will not return until they say Blessed be the coming of the Son of the Lord and they still havent done that as a nation yet. But they will.
 
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marks

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And the Merciful Lord did not rebuke me directly for that...but He repeated Himself but with that special parental tone of doom that us parents use on our kids when we want to send the nessage, Do it or you in Big Trouble Mister! That tone. It struck terror in me I tell you! He said, he needs help now, pray for him now...(in that tone) and I learned a very valuable lesson at that moment and I said Yes Lord, and immediately went into prayer for the man while Jesus stood there and listened to me
I know that voice! He wanted me to take care of someone whom I had some real bitterness towards, and when I balked, there was that Voice, " . . . . is my beloved daughter, and you will serve her!" There is only one way to answer! Yes Lord.

Much love!
 
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marks

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The lengths you go to to rebut information those opposed to your perspective insert is indicative of entrenched thinking.
That's an interesting point. Something to consider. When someone runs out of arrows, will they then throw rocks?

Much love!
 

marks

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Thanks for sharing. I do wish to get into a "kinder" kind of discussion. But every day is different, and we will approach things differently based on how we feel on a given day.
It's all about values, and choice. I value personal bounderies, and not being accusatory, so I choose to post accordingly. If you truly want to polish things up a bit, this is what you will do.

I value addressing the argument, and not the person, and so I try to lead a discussion back to the topic when it gets personal, and therefore, the posts I've written to you.

Being "feelings led" can be problematic. Value driven is what I strive for, personally. We should be in control of our feelings, not the other way around.

I appreciate your desire to do well!

Much love!
 
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marks

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Yes, I do know this argument. For me it is convoluted, but I understand that is what you believe.
To me this is very straighforward. Very plain, the way Paul wrote it.

Unless you have determined that "the day of Christ", or "the day of the Lord" = the rapture, there's no other way to see it. And if you make the "day of Christ" to be the rapture, the passage doesn't made sense.

Let's put it to the test:

(the following is re-worded to show the implications:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-5 KJV
1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the "gathering to our Lord" is at hand.
3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5) Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Why would they be troubled?

But if the expected the rapture would occur before the day of the Lord, then they'd be troubled thinking maybe they had missed it. Why else would they be troubled concerning their being gathered to the Lord?

Much love!
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Good luck finding any scripture that explicitly spells out the timing of the rapture.
It doesn't take any luck at all to find scripture which tells us the timing of the rapture in relation to the tribulation. Both Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 tell us it occurs right after the tribulation.

If it did, we wouldn't have so many debates about it. I've laid everything out in a nice outline, complete with plenty of scripture references. If that's not enough, then I don't know what to tell you.
I disagree. I find your explanation to be completely convoluted. Your scripture references have absolutely nothing to do with a pre-trib rapture. For example, you referenced Matthew 25:1-13. That passage is about the coming of the Son of Man. Not long before that, in Matthew 24:29-31, Jesus indicated that the coming of the Son of Man would occur "immediately after the tribulation of those days". So, how in the world can Matthew 25:1-13 be about a pre-trib rapture? It can't.

How is it convulated?
How is it not? It took you 4 long posts to explain your view. The truth of the matter is not nearly as complicated and convoluted as you make it out to be.

I'm just comparing the wedding ceremony with scripture. The 1st century Jews would have easily picked up on what Jesus was trying to convey.
You're not picking up on what He said. Again, He referenced His second coming in Matthew 25:1-13. Not long before that, He said His second coming would occur "immediately after the tribulation of those days". Very simple. His second coming is not pre-trib.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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I disagree. There has been no end to sins, reconcilation, or everlasting righteousness that Dan 9:24 talks about. There is a finality which has not yet been achieved.
Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Are you suggesting that reconciliation (atonement) for iniquity can be made some other way than by way of the blood of Christ?

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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To me this is very straighforward. Very plain, the way Paul wrote it.

Unless you have determined that "the day of Christ", or "the day of the Lord" = the rapture, there's no other way to see it. And if you make the "day of Christ" to be the rapture, the passage doesn't made sense.

Let's put it to the test:

(the following is re-worded to show the implications:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-5 KJV
1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the "gathering to our Lord" is at hand.
3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5) Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Why would they be troubled?

But if the expected the rapture would occur before the day of the Lord, then they'd be troubled thinking maybe they had missed it. Why else would they be troubled concerning their being gathered to the Lord?

Much love!
This cannot be used to support the pre-trib rapture theory. Notice what it says in verse 2 that they should not be troubled if anyone tried to tell them that the "gathering of our Lord" is at hand. How could they be troubled that they missed it when the context is in relation to it being at hand, which means it hadn't happened yet, but would soon happen?

No, what Paul was telling them not to be troubled about was if they heard or read something saying that the coming of Christ and our being gathered to Him was at hand and was going to happen soon and therefore would happen before the mass falling away and revealing of the man of sin occurred first, as he had already told them before when he was with them. It certainly would trouble them if someone said it would happen before the things that Paul said would happen first.
 

Jericho

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You're missing the point. There is no explicit Bible doctrine that places the Rapture of the Church *before* the Reign of Antichrist! Yes, he will come soon. And yes, we don't know the day or the hour. But absolutely, we are told *doctrinally* that Antichrist comes not *before* the rise of Antichrist, but *after* the revelation of Antichrist, specifically *at* the destruction of Antichrist.

2 Thes 2.3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
....8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

I'm not sure what this is supposed to prove.

Now, you may want to confuse this by jumping over to vs. 7 and arguing over who the "Restrainer" is, because that's what you guys do--you divert away from explicit Biblical doctrine by asking other, unrelated questions to muddy the picture. Then you can slip in your beliefs under the guise of private "revelation," using symbolic passages that can be manipulated any way you please.

Odd that you would dismss 2TH 2:7 and the identity of the "Restrainer" when it certaintly is releveant to that discussion. Regardless, when Jesus established the Church, He said, "The gates of Hades (Hell) shall not prevail against it" (Mat 16:18). If the Anti-Christ overcame the Church, it would contradict the words of Jesus, and that is not possible.
 

marks

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Notice what it says in verse 2 that they should not be troubled if anyone tried to tell them that the "gathering of our Lord" is at hand.
Except that's not what he wrote. No one was saying "our gathering to the Lord is at hand."

He wrote, "don't let them worry you saying 'the day of Christ" is at hand, or literally, has in-stood, that is, has arrived, is come, like that. It's a perfect tense verb, "the day of Christ is here to stay". Let's say this was a direct reference to the rapture, this "day of Christ/day of the Lord".

Let's say, you said to me, Hey, the rapture is here! I'd know in a heartbeat that it wasn't true, I'd still be here, you'd still be here, because it hadn't happened.

The rapture is a one time event that doesn't continue past it's specific purpose in the act of catching up those "in Christ". The day of Christ, we know this from the syntax, is a day that arrives and remains. Linguistically this is an issue. It's like saying, "the rapture is here", and tomorrow, it's still here. that's the grammar. It really does not fit. And he certainly did not say that this day "is coming soon" or something like that. Again, the grammar is specific, "has in-stood", perfect tense. "As though the Day of Christ is here and remains".

If Paul had taught them that they would be gathered to Christ before the Day of the Lord, and someone was telling them that the Day of the Lord is now here, then they'd be thinking, Did we miss it? Or maybe they'd be thinking, Did we misunderstand Paul? Or maybe, Was Paul wrong? Any one of those thoughts would be troubling.

Regarding the rapture, don't be troubled by someone telling you the day of the Lord is here, that day won't come until the man of sin be revealed. No revealing of the man of sin? No day of the Lord yet. So don't be worried about the rapture. This is what he's saying.

Much love!
 
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Jericho

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All the theologians, scripture scholars, bishops, saints and reformers were incapable of interpreting God's word....until....
...John Nelson Darby came along. He broke off from the Plymouth Brethren over theological disputes. Founder of the Exclusive Brethren sect, Darby invented pre-tribulation rapture theology in 1830 that was totally foreign to all of Christianity.

I'll let you in on a little secret, all rapture doctrines are fairly modern:

*The mid-tribulation rapture emerged in 1941 with the publication of the book, "The End: Rethinking the Revelation" by Norman B. Harrison.

*Prewrath was conceived in the 1970s by Robert Van Kampen. It became popularized in 1990 with Marvin Rosenthal's book "The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church".

*J. Barton Payne was the primary proponent of classic post-tribulationism in his 1962 work "The Imminent Appearing of Christ."

*Semi-classic post-tribulation was espoused by Alexander Reese in his book "The Approaching Advent of Christ," published in 1937.

*Futuristic post-tribulationism was popularized by George E. Ladd in his book "The Blessed Hope", published in 1956.

Ironically, the pre-trib is the oldest rapture doctrine, although it's the only one ever singled out. That's right. The early church didn't have an estbalished rapture doctrine. They certainly weren't having debates about the timing of the rapture. But The early church wasn't more enlightened than we are today. They were still figuring things out, much like we still are today.

But I'll explain why that is, and why the "newness" of the pre-trib rapture is not a problem as some suppose. The first is the issue of literacy, that is the ability to read, write, and comprehend written language. We take literacy for granted today, but it was not the universal norm for much of human history. In ancient civilizations, literacy was relegated to a small class of people such as priests, scribes, and nobility. In ancient Greece, literacy skills were at a basic level for much of the populace. It wasn’t until the invention of the Gutenberg printing press in the fifteenth century that literacy accelerated. In the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, laws were introduced in many countries that made literacy learning compulsory. It was only then that literacy became the norm rather than the exception that it is today.

Literacy was only part of the equation. The other problem is that the Bible wasn’t readily available and accessible to the layperson for much of Church history. Prior to the creation of the Gutenberg printing press, bibles were painstakingly copied by hand, making them rare and expensive. Only after the printing press was invented were the production and dissemination of Bibles to the masses possible.

Even after mass production of the Bible was possible, it was still not accessible to everyone. During the Middle Ages, the Catholic Church exerted control over the production and dissemination of the Bible. Only the upper clergy and educated elite were allowed to read the Scriptures, as it was believed only they could understand and explain the teachings to the common people.

At that time, Latin was the preferred language for official Church documents, theological discussions, and academic settings. Consequently, translating the Bible into other languages was either discouraged or expressly prohibited. John Wycliffe produced the first English translation of the Bible, but it faced opposition from Church leaders. John Wycliffe was later posthumously condemned, and the English Church banned unauthorized translations of the Bible in 1408.

Scholar and theologian William Tyndale was another notable example. Tyndale translated the Bible into English in the early 1520s. His work would later form the basis for future English translations of the Bible, including the King James Version. However, his translation was not well received by the Catholic Church. After a year in prison, Tyndale was strangled and burned at the stake in 1536.

The Council of Trent was convened by the Roman Catholic Church between 1545 and 1563 to counter the Protestant Reformation movement. Among their objectives was to reaffirm the Latin Vulgate as the authoritative version of the Bible for Catholics. Unfortunately, Latin was not widely known or understood by the common people, especially those outside the clergy, scholars, and educated elites.

Queen Mary I of England reinforced the Latin Vulgate as the authoritative version of the Bible for Catholics by discouraging translations into local vernaculars to prevent misinterpretation during her reign from 1553 to 1558. She attempted to reverse the English Reformation and eliminate Protestant versions of the Bible. Many Protestant leaders were subsequently arrested and burned at the stake for their “heresies”. Due to her ruthless reign, she earned the infamous nickname Bloody Mary.

All this is to say that accessibility, literacy, and the availability of vernacular translations of the Bible didn’t fully come to fruition until the past three to four hundred years or so. It was only then that the layperson could read the Bible for themselves and the various rapture doctrines were fleshed out. Therefore, age should not be the determining factor in whether something is true or not. If age were the ultimate test of validity, then the heresy of Gnosticism would be true since it’s nearly as old as Christianity itself.

There is another reason for the late arrival of these rapture doctrines. God doesn’t always reveal everything to us at once; sometimes it’s in increments. The Church dispensation, for example, was hidden from the Old Testament prophets. It was a mystery until it was revealed to the apostles, especially the Apostle Paul. God allows certain things to be veiled for His express purposes. When Daniel was shown a vision of future events, he didn’t understand what he was seeing:

Dan 12:4 “But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”

Dan 12:8 Although I heard, I did not understand. Then I said, “My lord, what shall be the end of these things?”

Dan 12:9 And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Daniel and his generation would not have understood how one man could control the entire world, but because of modern technology, we do. Time itself is a revealing factor. We gain knowledge and understanding in proportion to the resources and education available to us. That makes us capable of understanding certain things that not even the Biblical prophets could have understood. It only makes sense then that as we get closer to the end of this age, the more God reveals to us about the rapture and end times.

In summary, the lateness of the pre-trib rapture, and the other rapture positions in general, can be summed up by the lack of literacy, availability, and prohibition of the Bible by the governing authorities. Once the layperson could read the Bible freely for themselves, the study of prophecy and eschatology really took off. They were able to gain new insights that were not possible in previous generations. That was further magnified by the increase in knowledge and divine revelation reserved for our generation. That’s not to say that we still have all the answers. If it did, we would not have so many disagreements about the end times. But in many ways, we have more insight into eschatology than even the early Church had.
 
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marks

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Odd that you would dismss 2TH 2:7 and the identity of the "Restrainer" when it certaintly is releveant to that discussion. Regardless, when Jesus established the Church, He said, "The gates of Hades (Hell) shall not prevail against it" (Mat 16:18). If the Anti-Christ overcame the Church, it would contradict the words of Jesus, and that is not possible.
Yeah, this is another great point! The restraining of evil. I've given this a lot of thought! I'm not aware of any specific passage which defines this one for us, who or what is the restrainer, and what this restraining is about.

I'm aware of 2, what are to me, significant facts regarding this point. One is, the restrainer is spoken of using both masculine and neuter gendered words. There is only one person in the Bible whom I've been able to find who is spoken of using both masculine and neuter gendered words, and that is the Holy Spirit. Perhaps someone knows another, I'd be interested to know. But I cannot think of one. So this is concerning who is the restrainer.

Regarding the work of restaining, what, why, like that, the only passage I can think of to elucidate this is Romans 8:28, we know that all things work together for good to them who love God, and are the called according to His purpose. All things work together for our good, therefore anything that is not able to be worked for our good is not allowed, and is restrained. Paul goes on about the called being foreknown, and predestinated, and justified, and glorified. In the previous chapters he's told us about being immersed into Christ, dying in Him, rising in Him, that we are thereby justified. "The one who has died has been justified away from sin." These are they who are "in Christ."

And of course the rapture is the removal of those who are "in Christ". And without anyone in the world who is "in Christ", this promise has no recipient, and therefore no longer controls what happens here, that is, no more restraint of evil, because the Christians are gone.

And again, I'm interested if anyone can show me a passage or two that more clearly defines this. I just haven't been able to find any.

Much love!
 

marks

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You're not picking up on what He said. Again, He referenced His second coming in Matthew 25:1-13. Not long before that, He said His second coming would occur "immediately after the tribulation of those days". Very simple. His second coming is not pre-trib.
However, the rapture does not occur when Jesus comes in power and glory.

The gathering is of the "elect", or "chosen". There is another gathering shortly after this, of the "nations". These terms had exactly one use at that time, the chosen nation, Israel, and all the other nations, the gentiles.

These gatherings had been prophesied in many of the prophets, for instance in Joel 3. After God restores Israel's captivity, an idiom for bringing them back to their land, He will also gather the nations to be judged. The nations will be judged based on their works, what they did or didn't do for Jesus' brothers, the Israelites. The church doesn't fit here. Only if you assign the national identity of Israelite to the Christians, only, the Bible does not do that. I realize you do. I assert that interpretation of Scripture arose among those who did not believe the actual Israel was still a thing. But we know better now.

Much love!
 

Jericho

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Brother, I believe that you have hit the nail on the head. That is exactly how I learned it, except you filled me in on a couple new points! That is encouraging to me that, I cant disagree with anything you posted about it. That there is evidence that the Holy Spirit (that will lead us into All truth) is on the job and teaching the same truths to different people!

Thanks for the support, MA2444. I knew when I posted it that I would probably be walking into a mine field, but that is to be expected. To me, the truth seems obvious. But if we can't agree on certain precepts on which our foundation rests, we're never going to agree on certain issues. The timing of the rapture is one of them.

The rapture is pretrib. Jesus Loves His Bride. Jesus would not subject His Bride to the 70th week of Daniel, these things are promised in scripture. The great tribulation is all about Israel even though it affects everyone on earth.

I agree. The more I study the tribulation, the more I'm convinced it's all about Israel. It's God judging a Christ-rejecting world and dealing with Israel to bring them back into the fold. These are the six objectives laid out in Daniel 9:24.
 
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marks

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But in many ways, we have more insight into eschatology than even the early Church had.
Perhaps, I don't know. I know that the so called early church father's writings were curated, so there is no assurance that these represented commonly held views. And they have as much disagreement with each other as commentators today. So again, no real assurance.

I think the Thessalonian Christians may have had a better grasp then those who lived even 50 years later, but I truly do not know.

Just the same, I consider that the belief that God was done with Israel hobbled those trying to interpret the prophecies. As long as someone comes at the Bible with this in mind, real understanding becomes impossible, as they will be continually having to deal with passages that make promises to Israel, foretelling concerning them.

"Since we know there is no more nation of Israel, what can these passages mean?" They've ruled out the straightfoward meaning, now they have to find something else, which is generally the church, and it just doesn't fit, to the passage must be declared to be symbol, spiritualized, metaphor, but not actually the nation of Israel.

And after hundreds and hundreds of years go by, generations of commentators invested in this position, even though we see Israel now, we see God's hand on that nation, we see everything lining up exactly like the prophets foretold, yet still this faulty interpretation persists.

Much love!
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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Except that's not what he wrote. No one was saying "our gathering to the Lord is at hand."

He wrote, "don't let them worry you saying 'the day of Christ" is at hand, or literally, has in-stood, that is, has arrived, is come, like that. It's a perfect tense verb, "the day of Christ is here to stay". Let's say this was a direct reference to the rapture, this "day of Christ/day of the Lord".
2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

I'm sorry, but I find your argument to be extremely weak. In verse 1 Paul establishes the context of what he would talk about in the verses that followed. Which was what? "The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him".

As Paul showed in the following passage our gathering unto Him will occur at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Paul did not change the subject of Christ's coming and our being gathered unto Him in verse 2. He referred to the day that will occur as "the day of Christ". So, I stand by what I previously said in my other post.

Let's say, you said to me, Hey, the rapture is here! I'd know in a heartbeat that it wasn't true, I'd still be here, you'd still be here, because it hadn't happened.
We'd know it wasn't true if the falling away and revealing of the man of sin hasn't occurred yet. That is the point Paul made. But, anyone who wasn't sure about that or who forgot what Paul had told them before could be troubled by hearing that the rapture was soon at hand. They could potentially second guess what Paul said or think they were mistaken about what he had told them. He was just warning them about people trying to deceive them in that way and to be careful to remember what he had taught them.

The rapture is a one time event that doesn't continue past it's specific purpose in the act of catching up those "in Christ". The day of Christ, we know this from the syntax, is a day that arrives and remains.
This makes no sense whatsoever to me. I don't know what you are basing this on.

Linguistically this is an issue. It's like saying, "the rapture is here", and tomorrow, it's still here. that's the grammar. It really does not fit. And he certainly did not say that this day "is coming soon" or something like that.
That's what "at hand" means. To say something is at hand means it's about to happen soon, not that it has already happened.

If Paul had taught them that they would be gathered to Christ before the Day of the Lord,
He didn't teach them that. Let's talk about what he actually taught them instead.

Regarding the rapture, don't be troubled by someone telling you the day of the Lord is here, that day won't come until the man of sin be revealed. No revealing of the man of sin? No day of the Lord yet. So don't be worried about the rapture. This is what he's saying.
What you are missing is that he taught that Christ's second coming and our being gathered to Him happens on the day of the Lord.

Do you think the following verse is talking about something that will happen when the rapture occurs?

2 Thessalonians 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
 

marks

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I'm sorry, but I find your argument to be extremely weak.
You need not apologize, I'm not bothered. Personally I find your argument to be impossible considering the wording and grammar of the passage, but like I've been saying to Randy, it's not about our opinons. Just what the Scriptures say.

This makes no sense whatsoever to me. I don't know what you are basing this on.
Personally I think you may benefit tremendously from some study of Koine Greek grammar. It's not all exactly the same as English grammar. Kione Greek is a much more precise language than is English, one of the reasons I love that God choose that language for the New Testament.

Paul did not change the subject of Christ's coming and our being gathered unto Him in verse 2. He referred to the day that will occur as "the day of Christ". So, I stand by what I previously said in my other post.
Understood.

That's what "at hand" means. To say something is at hand means it's about to happen soon, not that it has already happened.
Yes, I realize the English translation, and how you see that.

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"is present" is how this interlinear translates the word. Young's Literal Translation put this as, "as though the Day of Christ hath arrived." JP Green translated as "as if the day of Christ has come."

The word is "has in stood", in the perfect tense, which means having begun, it remains. "As though the day of Christ is here and remains here." This is what Paul wrote.

Let's talk about what he actually taught them instead.
Isn't that what we are doing? :)

What you are missing is that he taught that Christ's second coming and our being gathered to Him happens on the day of the Lord.

Do you think the following verse is talking about something that will happen when the rapture occurs?

2 Thessalonians 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
Perhaps I'm not "missing" anything, perhaps I have a different view? Perhaps I could say "what you are missing"? Does that further the discussion or detract from it?

2 Thessalonians 1:4-10 KJV
4) So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5) Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
6) Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7) And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8) In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9) Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10) When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Where exactly do you see the rapture spoken of in this passage? Can you point to the particular words to help me understand what you are seeing?

Is it that He is not "glorified in his saints" unless we are being raptured at that time? Or do you have something else in mind?

Colossians 3:4 KJV
When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

When He appears, we appear with Him. Doesn't that suggest we are with Him when He appears? Like, when you see me, you'll see my watch fob? Because I have it with me.

Much love!
 

Spiritual Israelite

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However, the rapture does not occur when Jesus comes in power and glory.
Yes, it does. What are you basing that on?

Do you not think the following verse is referring to when He comes in power and glory?

2 Thessalonians 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

The gathering is of the "elect", or "chosen". There is another gathering shortly after this, of the "nations". These terms had exactly one use at that time, the chosen nation, Israel, and all the other nations, the gentiles.
Jesus was talking about something that would happen in the future after Gentile believers would join Israelite believers as the elect people of God. Surely, He knew that at the time so there is no basis for thinking that Him referring to the elect at a future time could not include Gentiles.

These gatherings had been prophesied in many of the prophets, for instance in Joel 3. After God restores Israel's captivity, an idiom for bringing them back to their land, He will also gather the nations to be judged. The nations will be judged based on their works, what they did or didn't do for Jesus' brothers, the Israelites. The church doesn't fit here. Only if you assign the national identity of Israelite to the Christians, only, the Bible does not do that. I realize you do. I assert that interpretation of Scripture arose among those who did not believe the actual Israel was still a thing. But we know better now.
Did you read Matthew 25:31-46 carefully? It is not a judgment of nations, but rather a judgment of individuals.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:...41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:....46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The first thing to take into consideration is that this was not originally written in English, but instead Greek. The Greek word translations as "nations" here is "ethnos" and that word has several definitions. One of those is "people in general". That is how it should be understood here. It says the ethnos will be separated one from another on each side of Jesus and the ones on his right hand will inherit "life eternal" in "the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world". Is that something nations will inherit? No, of course not. Please think about context when reading scripture like this. No, Jesus was talking about individual believers inheriting the kingdom, not entire nations. It will be individuals believers whose bodies have been changed to be immortal that inherit the kingdom of God at that time.

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

And then Jesus will say to those on His left hand "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" for "everlasting punishment". Again, is that something that will happen to nations? No, that is what will happen to individuals who reject Christ and don't have their names written in the book of life (Revelation 20:15).