What will happen to Christians who reject the Sabbath?
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Pancho Frijoles
Active Member
Although we serve God out of love and joy, and not out of fear, I would like to make a comment on “trying to get God to like us” in the old sense of “fear of God”.
If we don’t have the spirit, then we won’t try to please God.
No man can get genuinely interested in pleasing God if he has not been touched by God’s grace. Do you agree?
Such desire is implanted by the Holy Spirit.
If a person doesn’t have the Spirit, then she will be interested in other things (popularity, money, pleasures)… not in being liked by God.
Jesus mentioned the example of Pharisees who fasted or gave to charity because they wanted to please the crowds and pursued their applause. In contrast, God looked into the heart of those who sought genuinely to do good. Those were going to be rewarded.
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BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
It is quite possible to be interested in pleasing God in order to escape judgment. This is, in fact, the very foundation of nearly all false religions.
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I do not agree because many do not know anything about God or have His spirit. They do think it might be nice to make heaven so we hear talk like I'm a good person and so I should get in. It's totally impossible for people to immortalize themselves and attain the righteousness of God by participating in sacraments such as to pray, praise, and give thanks. It's not the hymns, chorales, chants, or the instrumental music. It's not the buildings for worship, the art, the architecture, the kneeling, dipping, dunking, chanting, counting, lighting, confessing our sins or moral and political behavior.
Many Christians try to earn God’s righteousness by being a good person, a good member of their church, a good father or mother, or a good child. Some try by being a good worker, a good student, a wonderful husband or wife, and a good neighbor. Some try by singing more hymns, by running to the altar, by confessing their sins, and by being a law-abiding citizen. Others try by water baptism, the Old Testament Law, the rosary, fasting, giving to their church, and giving to the poor. These are all nice and wonderful dynamic moral commitments that, at best, are only the commandments of people.
Pancho Frijoles
Active Member
Oh, I think I see your point. Thanks for the clarification.
Yes, there is a difference between trying to earn God's righteousness, which is impossible, and try to please God out of love, just as a husband and wife try to please each other.
The former is bound to frustration (or, as in the case of the Pharisee, to self-deception). The latter is bound to joy.
The former is propelled by the flesh. The latter by the Spirit.
Pancho Frijoles
Active Member
Right, but then the real interest of such individuals will not be to please God, but to escape judgement... do you agree?
What you pointed out, BarneyFire, is really important, as I have heard many believers to put a lot of emphasis on "escaping judgement" (the Final judgement) as the reason why a non-believer should believe.
I would like to add another point to this which is there's a verse in first John that says "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments." Most teach we have to keep his commandments to get to know him. I think because we know him is why we keep his commandments which is something you keep pointing out.
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BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
I think you missed the point. Folks who resist the Holy Spirit can't see that they're attempting righteousness by works.
In fact, for nearly all of us, it's not a matter of whether we have legalistic tendencies, but to what degree, in what manner, and what we're trying to do about it.
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Pancho Frijoles
Active Member
Folks who resist the Holy Spirit do not care about righteousness.
Only those blessed by the Holy Spirit yearn for righteousness. Otherwise they love the works of darkness.
Jesus explained it this way:
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, For they shall be filled. Mat 5:6
God made Peter realize that in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. Acts 10:35
Certainly, I’m not talking here about arrogance, hypocresy or self-rigtheousness. All that separates us from God..
I’m talking about genuine righteousness, which can be produced only by the Spirit.
Ziggy
Well-Known Member
A blind man is sitting on the side of the road. He's been sitting there his whole life just hoping someone would help him.
A man walks by and he takes hold of his garment and he believes he will be healed.
What religion was this man? What commandments was he keeping or not keeping? What day did he not sit on the road hoping and waiting?
Doesn't matter. He believed and he had faith that God would work a miracle.
He believed God was able and willing.
Sometimes those who are the most healthy end up being the most sick. Not in the body but in their spirit.
What is righteousness? Doing right things, thinking right thoughts, fairness, justice, humbleness.
You can't TRY to earn these. You either have them or you don't.
It's when a person realizes that something is lacking that they go looking for help.
Most the world today don't believe they need help spiritually. That was the problem with the Pharisees.
They thought because they did the physical works that that was enough. But the spirit in them was dead.
They didn't see the need for salvation because they believe they earned it through works.
Works isn't something you do, it's something that comes from the heart. A desire to do well. Not because your afraid you may go to hell if you don't. It's not about punishment and penalties. It's what's right or wrong in the heart.
Everyone is getting pushed and pressed to do things that the world says is the right way to be, to think, to act.
And those who do not know the word of God or haven't been born with a right spirit, is prone to fall into the trap of being manipulated by other peoples thoughts and ideas of what is right and wrong.
We have people in congress who believe they earn their living because they work by debating, passing legislature, showing up to the office.
But they are only doing the works. Most of them don't have their heart in it.
They know the difference between right and wrong but greed has callused their hearts. And they aren't interested in circumcising that deadness and feeling for others. So we suffer for their mistakes.
But we have our own calluses our own greed and desire, me me me. Will I make it to heaven? Will I goto hell?
Try getting your thoughts of self and concentrate on others and their needs.
If trying and earning is even in the equation then I would think that that would be where you would find it to make any difference at all.
Do you know someone who needs rest? Who needs comfort?
Does it matter what day?
Reciprical... The Sabbath is reciprical.
God gave it to us so we could give it to each other. But instead we beat each other up over how to do it right.
Fighting about it won't get you into the kingdom that's for sure.
It has to come from the heart, spontaneous desire to do the right thing, anytime, anyplace, anywhere.
Or what is the purpose of being given rest and told to give rest to others for?
By the way, The Chosen season 4 has been released. You can find it on YouTube or TheChosen.tv App.
Last night was about the gentile centurion having his son healed simply because he believed.
Was amazing.
anywho....
Just sharing my thoughts
Hugs
A man walks by and he takes hold of his garment and he believes he will be healed.
What religion was this man? What commandments was he keeping or not keeping? What day did he not sit on the road hoping and waiting?
Doesn't matter. He believed and he had faith that God would work a miracle.
He believed God was able and willing.
Sometimes those who are the most healthy end up being the most sick. Not in the body but in their spirit.
What is righteousness? Doing right things, thinking right thoughts, fairness, justice, humbleness.
You can't TRY to earn these. You either have them or you don't.
It's when a person realizes that something is lacking that they go looking for help.
Most the world today don't believe they need help spiritually. That was the problem with the Pharisees.
They thought because they did the physical works that that was enough. But the spirit in them was dead.
They didn't see the need for salvation because they believe they earned it through works.
Works isn't something you do, it's something that comes from the heart. A desire to do well. Not because your afraid you may go to hell if you don't. It's not about punishment and penalties. It's what's right or wrong in the heart.
Everyone is getting pushed and pressed to do things that the world says is the right way to be, to think, to act.
And those who do not know the word of God or haven't been born with a right spirit, is prone to fall into the trap of being manipulated by other peoples thoughts and ideas of what is right and wrong.
We have people in congress who believe they earn their living because they work by debating, passing legislature, showing up to the office.
But they are only doing the works. Most of them don't have their heart in it.
They know the difference between right and wrong but greed has callused their hearts. And they aren't interested in circumcising that deadness and feeling for others. So we suffer for their mistakes.
But we have our own calluses our own greed and desire, me me me. Will I make it to heaven? Will I goto hell?
Try getting your thoughts of self and concentrate on others and their needs.
If trying and earning is even in the equation then I would think that that would be where you would find it to make any difference at all.
Do you know someone who needs rest? Who needs comfort?
Does it matter what day?
Reciprical... The Sabbath is reciprical.
God gave it to us so we could give it to each other. But instead we beat each other up over how to do it right.
Fighting about it won't get you into the kingdom that's for sure.
It has to come from the heart, spontaneous desire to do the right thing, anytime, anyplace, anywhere.
Or what is the purpose of being given rest and told to give rest to others for?
By the way, The Chosen season 4 has been released. You can find it on YouTube or TheChosen.tv App.
Last night was about the gentile centurion having his son healed simply because he believed.
Was amazing.
anywho....
Just sharing my thoughts
Hugs
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Keeping the Sabbath won't get anyone into the Kingdom—only the Saviour can save.
But, then, neither will insisting that the Sabbath is anything and everything except what the Bible actually says it is—no matter how many lines and paragraphs of equivocation are used to attempt such a thing.
I keep the Sabbath for the same reason I don't murder, steal, or do any of the other things God highlights in the 10-item moral code for human beings contained in Exodus 20, and expanded upon in the rest of Scripture—because Christ loves us and knows what's best for our health and welfare.
And He says "If you love Me, keep My commandments."
It seems like the only time it's okay to "fight" and "beat each other up" about a commandment is if one is fighting to justify not keeping it.
Which is extremely interesting, considering that just a few decades ago, no one would dare even suggest such a thing in a Christian environment.
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BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Fair enough, I guess, but my original comment was in response to:
...when you were, in fact, referring to self-righteousness.
I don't think we can just write folks off who aren't able or even willing to see their danger.
Christ didn't do that to me, and I'm still a work in progress, so...
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Ziggy
Well-Known Member
Do you believe that you have to have something written in order to do the right thing?
Do you not murder or steal because it is written or because in your heart you know it is wrong?
If someone falls down in front of you, do you help them up because it is written or because you know it is the right thing to do?
I believe that is what Jesus was saying about animals. If one falls into a pit on the sabbath day, won't you go and pull them out, or if an animal is thirsty will you not lead them to water? How much more is man than an animal?
According to the written code, you would have to leave them in a pit until the following day or let them go thirsty.
I'm not justifying not keeping it, I'm saying that the scope of the Sabbath surpasses the written interpretation of it.
Sabbath means rest. That is the meaning of the word.
God gave man the Sabbath, God gave man rest from their trying to please him through their labors, their works.
He also gave them the Sabbath to create a distinction from what man offers man.
Under Pharoah in Egypt they were slaves to the will of man. They had no rest.
Pharoah got upset with Moses when he even mentioned giving them some reprieve from their labors.
Exo 5:5
And Pharaoh said, Behold, the people of the land now are many, and ye make them rest from their burdens.
Exo 5:9
Let there more work be laid upon the men, that they may labour therein; and let them not regard vain words.
The difference between God and man is God gives and man takes away what God gives freely.
Did God give the children in the wilderness only one day of rest though?
Did he not feed them everyday, Keep sickness from them everyday, protect their clothing everyday for 40 years?
Does he not provide the breath you breathe everyday?
God never stops giving.
And he gave man what he wanted man to give each other.
I understand the Law. But even when the law dictated rest, man took it greedily for themselves instead of giving it to others.
God was showing them an example of how we aught to treat eachother as he treats us. But man turned the gift into a weapon to use against eachother. If you don't obey the law you will die.
Punishment for what should of been a blessing.
That's why there is a new testament, a new way of doing things. Because they didn't understand the scope or the intention of what the Sabbath truly meant. Not through the flesh but in the heart.
What is the greatest commandment? Love God.
How does he want us to show our love to him? By loving others.
These are the two great commandments.
How do we show our love to others? By providing them rest from their burdens.
Mat 12:11
And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?
Mat 12:12
How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.
Is there any day that it is lawful to not do well?
The world would prefer to run people the same way Pharaoh did to build their kingdom. No rest, keep moving, don't worry about the other guy, get ahead, be famous, be rich, keep moving, build, build, build, for them.
I believe God prefers man to slow down and smell the roses. Be mindful of others needs.
And as he has provided for us 24/7 since the beginning, we aught to provide for each other the same way.
The Sabbath is a day to honor God and to focus on him and his ways from the hustle and bustle of world.
And where is God? and how do we honor him?
Mat 25:40
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
By imitating him and doing as he does for us to others.
Imagine if God only provided manna in the wilderness for one day a week to give them rest from their labors.
Is this what God intended? If so, then why not make a law that says ye shall serve the Lord thy God on the Sabbath only?
I'm not arguing or fighting or even disputing keeping the sabbath.
I'm simply saying I believe the sabbath is so much more than how the written law intended it to be kept.
Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our tresspasses as we forgive those who tresspass against us.
Everyday.
Hugs
Pancho Frijoles
Active Member
Well, if I left that impression, I apologize for not being clear.
I do not believe in self-righteousness. It's a dead alley, a contradiction, a source of frustration.
Righteousness is the result of the works of God.
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Well, if we're speaking in simple terms, then, you shouldn't mind simply answering a direct question:
Do you believe Christians are obligated to God to keep the seventh day of the week—which is called "the Sabbath of the LORD thy God" in the text of the 4th commandment—holy or not?
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It blows my mind that this is still being discussed...
Galatians 5:2-4
Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
We will fall from the understanding of the grace that is in Christ, and succumb to the doctrines and theories that are dictated by human conception if we seek justification by our own works. The concision in Galatians was from those who taught circumcision was necessary for salvation. Circumcision is a work of the flesh required by the Old Testament Law.
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Scripture twisting and moral equivocation notwithstanding, the sticking point for me is that even as a youth in the Southern Baptist faith where the Sabbath was believed by lay people to be Sunday, there were plenty of folks who declined to keep it holy, but I never once encountered a person so bold as to claim that God required no such thing. This phenomenon simply didn't exist among lay people before the Almighty Internet. Perhaps you have information to the contrary. If this blows your mind, then you shouldn't read the information contained in the following thread:
Why Protestant churches dont keep the Sabbath.
Many Protestant church's in the Christian world reverence Sunday, did God know that this attempt to change His holy Sabbath would occur? "And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be...
www.christianityboard.com
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BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
By the way, I agree with the Scripture you have quoted.
I also agree with this one:
1 Corinthians 7:19 NKJV — Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.
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The link starts out by saying "...did God know that this attempt to change His holy Sabbath would occur?Scripture twisting and moral equivocation notwithstanding, the sticking point for me is that even as a youth in the Southern Baptist faith where the Sabbath was believed by lay people to be Sunday, there were plenty of folks who declined to keep it holy, but I never once encountered a person so bold as to claim that God required no such thing. This phenomenon simply didn't exist among lay people before the Almighty Internet. Perhaps you have information to the contrary. If this blows your mind, then you shouldn't read the information contained in the following thread:
Why Protestant churches dont keep the Sabbath.
Many Protestant church's in the Christian world reverence Sunday, did God know that this attempt to change His holy Sabbath would occur? "And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be...
.
There's no need to read any further because there's no sabbath for the Christian. We cannot live by faith in what Christ has done for us and still think our obedience to written laws are necessary. To do so takes away from the perfect work of Christ and places salvation and righteousness back in our own hands. Romans 8 states "the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin..."
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