the Great Tribulation

[Randy Kluth]

Ok, thanks for your thoughts on that. It seems to me that there are problems with saying “Michael arises” is a single event in both Daniel 12 and Revelation 12, but there are also problems with claiming Michael didn’t arise or take a stand when he fights the dragon.

I was thinking that the event that hasn’t happened from the beginning of nations until then could be the war in heaven, as that war only happens once, never to be repeated.

I understand and recognize your concern. This is why apocalyptic language is difficult to interpret. It is filled with sometimes timeless features that leave an easy interpretation elusive. It relieves me to know, however, that the purpose of this "difficult" language may have been caused by the danger of being "too literal" in a hostile Roman world. Jesus kindly allowed John to speak in terms that only Christians would be able to decipher. Pagan Romans would be left scratching their heads and unable to persecute Christians for saying something they didn't like.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Alright, you are really saying then that the tribulation is great only in length of time and not necessarily the total number of Jews that make it through the tribulation.

Let me ask you this, Israel was blind in part until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. Couldn’t the great tribulation that “hasn’t happened from the beginning of nations until then” be the spiritual blindness that happens to Israel? I personally don’t think any physical tribulation can be greater than spiritual blindness.

A constant in the Bible's "covenant theology" between God and Israel is the language of physical destruction taking place in the nation for their refusal to comply with their part of the agreement. That is, when they willfully disobeyed God as a nation, by substituting pagan deities for Almighty God, they were promised physical destruction and physical exile. They would suffer very real diseases, deaths, and yes--spiritual blindness.

 

[Randy Kluth]

So are we, believers, currently experiencing the great tribulation?

Yes. The great tribulation brought upon Israel by their willful rebellion translates into a lack of spiritual light in the world that enables men to repent. If men do not repent they continue to suffer tribulation just as Israel, in their rebellion, suffers tribulation.

I should think that now that the international Church is here, well beyond just the light of Israel, that the world would repent of their sins and avoid judgment? But no. Neither is the Church any more perfect than Israel was--I speak of the Nominal Church--not of the relative few who are faithful.

And because the light of Christianity is so dim, relatively speaking, there is a lot of darkness in the world. Not only does the world choose darkness, but the light of Christianity is so weak that many do not even know of repentance.

And so, tribulation continues in the world for all sinners, wherever they may be. However, those who repent at the Gospel being taught by the few will be liberated from judgment, even though they still experience the tribulations brought on by a sinful world.

 

[quietthinker]

Dan 12.1 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. 4 But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.”
5 Then I, Daniel, looked, and there before me stood two others, one on this bank of the river and one on the opposite bank. 6 One of them said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled?”
7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.”

Why are the 3.5 years at the end of the age identified as "the Great Tribulation?" I believe there is a basic confusion over how God looks at the people of Israel. He sees them, I think, as generally a lost people, and yet a people who are to be restored and who are currently represented by those pursuing this spiritual restoration.

The "Great Tribulation" is therefore a time when Israel appears to be lost and under judgment, in exile. But at the very end of this NT era, during the 3.5 years of Antichristian reign, this history will be resolved. It will be the final days of Israel's lost history, in which the faithful ultimately anticipate a coming deliverance for Israel as a people.

In his Olivet Discourse, Jesus used the term "great distress," or "great tribulation," to describe this Jewish history in which the people generally would appear lost and under judgment, while only a relative few remain true to God. It would be a time when the people lose their spirituality, persecuting or rejecting Christianity, while only a relative few choose to follow Jesus and anticipate a return of Israel to true spirituality and fidelity to God.

The "Great Tribulation," then, is actually the long period of time in the NT era when Israel is in Diaspora. But this period of Jewish Punishment will ultimately be resolved in a final 3.5 year period under the Man of Sin, when believers succeed in testifying to the coming salvation of Christ at the end of this period.

And so, this final period of 3.5 years is often called "the Great Tribulation," as well. Israel will continue to appear as lost, but will also be represented by believers who anticipate Israel's restoration to God as a nation.

Why interpret 'your people' (Dan 12:1) as meaning Israel as a political nation? Why not understand it as meaning all those aligned with God from all humanity throughout all time?

 

[Truth7t7]

Regardless of what we believe about promises God supposedly made to Abraham, we can *never* say that a nation cannot convert to Christianity as a nation, just as we cannot say that the unsaved cannot be saved. Though it is sometimes denied, there have been many Christian nations in history. This doesn't have to mean that an entire nation is saved--only that the population has generally embraced Christianity as their national religion. Israel could certainly do this if they so chose to do so.

My claim is not refuted by this passage, ie Rom 11.7-8. Paul was describing the present state of national Israel. At this time there is only a small remnant of Christians among the Jewish People as a whole. Christianity is resisted among the Jews.

And yet Paul argued that in the future prophecy would be fulfilled in which the whole nation converts to Christianity and is no longer oppressed by other nations as a judgment from God.

Rom 11.25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

I'm not really interested in engaging with a hostile spirit. However, others deserve to know where I stand on this.

Hostile spirit?

You mean a person who has shown your belief to be in grave error

I wouldn't openly accuse you of being a false teacher and deceiver, just that your in error of biblical truth

 

[Truth7t7]

Why interpret 'your people' (Dan 12:1) as meaning Israel as a political nation? Why not understand it as meaning all those aligned with God from all humanity throughout all time?

I Agree 100%, good post of truth!

The poster presents (Two Peoples) of God, we know well there is presently (One People) The Church, washed in the blood of Calvary

 

[quietthinker]

I Agree 100%, good post of truth!

The poster presents (Two Peoples) of God, we know well there is presently (One People) The Church, washed in the blood of Calvary

'Thy sins are forgiven thee' Jesus says to the paralytic let down through the roof. Did he believe it (the paralytic ie) Evidently so because he got up and walked. Was he washed in the blood of Calvary? to use your language. It appears so....even while Calvary had not yet happened.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Why interpret 'your people' (Dan 12:1) as meaning Israel as a political nation? Why not understand it as meaning all those aligned with God from all humanity throughout all time?

The reference appears to be to Israel, as I see it. You're welcome to see it as you see fit. Not arguing--I just generally see Israel being referred to throughout the OT Scriptures. And in this particular context it seems apparent to me that Israel is being addressed.

Under the Old Covenant, Israel represented God's People in the world. It did not exclude Salvation from individuals throughout the world. God just chose Israel to be a model of theocracy for the rest of the world--not individualism but a collective faith.

Only Israel carried this faith as a society. And so, only Israel was addressed--well, at least only they were the primary focus of God's prophecies. Other nations were referenced in the Prophets, though not in the best light. Hope, however, was given to them.

 

[quietthinker]

The reference appears to be to Israel, as I see it. You're welcome to see it as you see fit. Not arguing--I just generally see Israel being referred to throughout the OT Scriptures. And in this particular context it seems apparent to me that Israel is being addressed.

Under the Old Covenant, Israel represented God's People in the world. It did not exclude Salvation from individuals throughout the world. God just chose Israel to be a model of theocracy for the rest of the world--not individualism but a collective faith.

Only Israel carried this faith as a society. And so, only Israel was addressed--well, at least only they were the primary focus of God's prophecies. Other nations were referenced in the Prophets, though not in the best light. Hope, however, was given to them.

In that case, does the resurrection spoken of to Daniel only apply to Israel?

 

[Truth7t7]

'Thy sins are forgiven thee' Jesus says to the paralytic let down through the roof. Did he believe it (the paralytic ie) Evidently so because he got up and walked. Was he washed in the blood of Calvary? to use your language. It appears so....even while Calvary had not yet happened.

Yes he followed Jesus, and his atonement for sin was moved from the blood of animals in the temple to the cross of Calvary

Did Jesus forgive man's sin upon earth "Absolutely"

Mark 2:9KJV
9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?

 

[Marty fox]

Dan 12.1 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. 4 But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.”
5 Then I, Daniel, looked, and there before me stood two others, one on this bank of the river and one on the opposite bank. 6 One of them said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled?”
7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.”

Why are the 3.5 years at the end of the age identified as "the Great Tribulation?" I believe there is a basic confusion over how God looks at the people of Israel. He sees them, I think, as generally a lost people, and yet a people who are to be restored and who are currently represented by those pursuing this spiritual restoration.

The "Great Tribulation" is therefore a time when Israel appears to be lost and under judgment, in exile. But at the very end of this NT era, during the 3.5 years of Antichristian reign, this history will be resolved. It will be the final days of Israel's lost history, in which the faithful ultimately anticipate a coming deliverance for Israel as a people.

In his Olivet Discourse, Jesus used the term "great distress," or "great tribulation," to describe this Jewish history in which the people generally would appear lost and under judgment, while only a relative few remain true to God. It would be a time when the people lose their spirituality, persecuting or rejecting Christianity, while only a relative few choose to follow Jesus and anticipate a return of Israel to true spirituality and fidelity to God.

The "Great Tribulation," then, is actually the long period of time in the NT era when Israel is in Diaspora. But this period of Jewish Punishment will ultimately be resolved in a final 3.5 year period under the Man of Sin, when believers succeed in testifying to the coming salvation of Christ at the end of this period.

And so, this final period of 3.5 years is often called "the Great Tribulation," as well. Israel will continue to appear as lost, but will also be represented by believers who anticipate Israel's restoration to God as a nation.

Daniel 12
8 I heard, but I did not understand. So I asked, “My lord, what will the outcome of all this be?”
9 He replied, “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are rolled up and sealed until the time of the end. 10 Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.

11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.
13 “As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”

Hi Randy my friend when do you think Daniel rose?

Matthew told us when.

Matthew 27
50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[e] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

 

[quietthinker]

Daniel 12
8 I heard, but I did not understand. So I asked, “My lord, what will the outcome of all this be?”
9 He replied, “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are rolled up and sealed until the time of the end. 10 Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.

11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.
13 “As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”

Hi Randy my friend when do you think Daniel rose?

Matthew told us when.

Matthew 27
50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[e] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Interesting for sure! Was Daniel one of those who was raised as mentioned in Matthew 27:52?

I reflect further on Daniel 12:13 ...
'As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.'

 

[Davy]

Dan 12.1 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. 4 But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.”
5 Then I, Daniel, looked, and there before me stood two others, one on this bank of the river and one on the opposite bank. 6 One of them said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled?”
7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.”

Why are the 3.5 years at the end of the age identified as "the Great Tribulation?" I believe there is a basic confusion over how God looks at the people of Israel. He sees them, I think, as generally a lost people, and yet a people who are to be restored and who are currently represented by those pursuing this spiritual restoration.

The "Great Tribulation" is therefore a time when Israel appears to be lost and under judgment, in exile. But at the very end of this NT era, during the 3.5 years of Antichristian reign, this history will be resolved. It will be the final days of Israel's lost history, in which the faithful ultimately anticipate a coming deliverance for Israel as a people.

In his Olivet Discourse, Jesus used the term "great distress," or "great tribulation," to describe this Jewish history in which the people generally would appear lost and under judgment, while only a relative few remain true to God. It would be a time when the people lose their spirituality, persecuting or rejecting Christianity, while only a relative few choose to follow Jesus and anticipate a return of Israel to true spirituality and fidelity to God.

The "Great Tribulation," then, is actually the long period of time in the NT era when Israel is in Diaspora. But this period of Jewish Punishment will ultimately be resolved in a final 3.5 year period under the Man of Sin, when believers succeed in testifying to the coming salvation of Christ at the end of this period.

And so, this final period of 3.5 years is often called "the Great Tribulation," as well. Israel will continue to appear as lost, but will also be represented by believers who anticipate Israel's restoration to God as a nation.

Much of that is just speculation based from men's doctrines who do not understand God's Word when it comes to the seed of Israel.

Per man's word, which is usually lacking understanding, Israel represents a people fallen from God's grace and make up those who call theirselves Jews.

Per God's Word, the majority of the 'seed' of Israel are NOT Jews, but make up the ten lost tribes which God scattered mainly to the West and they became the Western Christian Nations of history, fulfilled the Genesis 48 prophecy of "multitude of nations" given about Ephraim's seed, the head of the ten northern tribes when God split old Israel in two kingdoms.

The Jews per Bible history only involved the 3 tribe southern "kingdom of Judah", the title of Jew originating originally from the tribe of Judah.

And those Jews of the southern kingdom went into a separate captivity to Babylon, strangers with them which had crept in among them years before of the Canaanites. Also a portion of Esau's seed crept in among them also and took the name Jew. And these are actually the ones you are pointing to, and NOT to God's Israel of the northern ten lost tribes which became the Christian nations.

So try reading your Bible for yourself instead of just believing men's doctrines that you believe that are NOT written in God's Word.

 

[Behold]

I, of course, believe that Jesus is coming again, according to 2 Thes 1.8-9. But his Coming to judge all, and not just Israel, does not preclude Israel from being the main object of wrath

The main object of 2 Thess 1:8-9, are "those who do not obey the Gospel"

How do you know?
Its because that is what the verse says.

""""He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the GOSPEL of our Lord Jesus.""""

New Living Translation
in flaming fire, bringing judgment on those who don’t know God and on those who refuse to obey the Good News of our Lord Jesus.

English Standard Version
in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

Berean Standard Bible
in blazing fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and do not obey the GOSPELof our Lord Jesus.

Berean Literal Bible
in a fire of flame, inflicting vengeance on those not knowing God and on those not obeying the gospel of our Lord Jesus,

King James Bible
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

New King James Version
in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

New American Standard Bible
in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God, and to those who do not obey the GOSPEL l of our Lord Jesus.

NASB 1995
dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

NASB 1977
dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

Legacy Standard Bible
executing vengeance on those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the GOSPEL of our Lord Jesus.

 

[grafted branch]

The way Daniel 12:1 reads to me is like such. It is at the end of this period involving trouble that can't be equaled when Michael initially stands up, thus it is the worst time of trouble any saint on this planet has ever experienced since the beginning of mankind. And when Michael stands up it then leads to what is recorded in Daniel 12:2 at that time.

What about Revelation 12:7 where Michael fights the dragon, when does that take place? If you have Michael standing up after a future great tribulation then you’ll have to have Michael fighting the dragon while in the seated/not standing position or else you have to place the Revelation 12:7 war after the tribulation also.

Clearly, when Michael is fighting satan in Revelation 12, it does not then lead to what is recorded in Daniel 12:2 at that time. It leads to the following instead, meaning Revelation 12:9-17, where none of that has anything to do with Daniel 12:2 at this point in time.

If Michael fights the dragon at the time of the cross then the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrection would be the Daniel 12:2 resurrection.

Anyone insisting that they always interpret Scripture with Scripture is contradicting what they claim they always do, if they are not interpreting Matthew 24:21 in light of Revelation 7:13-14, but are applying Matthew 24:21 to the first century and 70 AD instead.

Well the great tribulation could be “their fall” or Israel being blind in part. Their blindness continued for a span of time, until the fullness of the Gentiles came in and Revelation 7:9 & 14 tells us that the great multitude of Gentiles came out of the great tribulation.

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

If you have the great multitude of Gentiles in Revelation 7:9 being saved during the 42 months of the Revelation 13 beast then you are essentially saying the beast is responsible for the greatest evangelical movement ever. That doesn’t make sense, the greatest Gentile evangelical movement happened in the first century.

 

[Marty fox]

Interesting for sure! Was Daniel one of those who was raised as mentioned in Matthew 27:52?

I reflect further on Daniel 12:13 ...
'As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.'

Yes he certainly was one of those who rose in Matthew

I did have verse 13 in my post if you missed it

 

[David in NJ]

Is it the last week of the 70 weeks that is shortened? If so then we have prophecy that is inaccurate.

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

We are in the 'Last Seven"

The 70th Week BEGAN when the LORD came to earth in the flesh and walked among us = Read Gospel of John

 

[grafted branch]

We are in the 'Last Seven"

The 70th Week BEGAN when the LORD came to earth in the flesh and walked among us = Read Gospel of John

So do you think this last, 70th week, is shortened?

 

[Randy Kluth]

The main object of 2 Thess 1:8-9, are "those who do not obey the Gospel"

How do you know?
Its because that is what the verse says.

Yes, I know and I've already acknowledged that. I don't dispute what 2 Thes 1.8-9 says at all. What I'm saying is that it does not render what Jesus said *to Israel* in his Olivet Discourse invalid. In that Discourse, which was still in the era of the Law, Jesus focused on the future of Israel in the NT era. As a people there would be "great tribulation," indicating they would be without a homeland for the most part, and without God's blessings. This state of affairs would continue until he, Jesus, returns to restore them.

This Discourse, though focusing on Israel's general state of unbelief and disobedience, nevertheless recognizes that a remnant of faith will continue among the Jews. These were Jesus' disciples who were instructed to persevere in their faith and in their obedience until he returns from heaven. That is when things will be restored for the Jewish People, based on the principle of faith and obedience, and not on the principle of unbelief and disobedience.

 

[David in NJ]

So do you think this last, 70th week, is shortened?

When the last 3.5 years begin(only the FATHER knows when the EXACT Time begins) the LORD will shorten "those days" and no one will know but the LORD.