the Great Tribulation

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Randy Kluth

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Dan 12.1 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. 4 But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.”
5 Then I, Daniel, looked, and there before me stood two others, one on this bank of the river and one on the opposite bank. 6 One of them said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled?”
7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.”


Why are the 3.5 years at the end of the age identified as "the Great Tribulation?" I believe there is a basic confusion over how God looks at the people of Israel. He sees them, I think, as generally a lost people, and yet a people who are to be restored and who are currently represented by those pursuing this spiritual restoration.

The "Great Tribulation" is therefore a time when Israel appears to be lost and under judgment, in exile. But at the very end of this NT era, during the 3.5 years of Antichristian reign, this history will be resolved. It will be the final days of Israel's lost history, in which the faithful ultimately anticipate a coming deliverance for Israel as a people.

In his Olivet Discourse, Jesus used the term "great distress," or "great tribulation," to describe this Jewish history in which the people generally would appear lost and under judgment, while only a relative few remain true to God. It would be a time when the people lose their spirituality, persecuting or rejecting Christianity, while only a relative few choose to follow Jesus and anticipate a return of Israel to true spirituality and fidelity to God.

The "Great Tribulation," then, is actually the long period of time in the NT era when Israel is in Diaspora. But this period of Jewish Punishment will ultimately be resolved in a final 3.5 year period under the Man of Sin, when believers succeed in testifying to the coming salvation of Christ at the end of this period.

And so, this final period of 3.5 years is often called "the Great Tribulation," as well. Israel will continue to appear as lost, but will also be represented by believers who anticipate Israel's restoration to God as a nation.
 
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grafted branch

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Dan 12.1 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise.
Do you think when Michael arises it is also the time when Michael fights the dragon in Revelation 12:7?
Daniel 12:1 says at that time Michael will arise, so if Revelation 12:7 happens after the book of Daniel was written but before Michael arises in Daniel 12:1 then Michael doesn’t arise when he fights the dragon, which would seem odd.
 

grafted branch

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There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then.
Also, in 1 Peter 3:20 it says “while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water”. If the great tribulation is a physical, world wide event that “hasn’t happened from the beginning of nations until then”, then wouldn’t it result in less than eight souls surviving?
 

rebuilder 454

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Also, in 1 Peter 3:20 it says “while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water”. If the great tribulation is a physical, world wide event that “hasn’t happened from the beginning of nations until then”, then wouldn’t it result in less than eight souls surviving?
It says " unless those days were shortened no flesh would be saved".
So it is a short period of time...a few years of the worst trib ever in history.
 
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grafted branch

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It says " unless those days were shortened no flesh would be saved".
So it is a short period of time...a few years of the worst trib ever in history.
Is it the last week of the 70 weeks that is shortened? If so then we have prophecy that is inaccurate.

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
 

Randy Kluth

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Also, in 1 Peter 3:20 it says “while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water”. If the great tribulation is a physical, world wide event that “hasn’t happened from the beginning of nations until then”, then wouldn’t it result in less than eight souls surviving?
As I've been saying for some time now, Jesus associated this Great Tribulation with God's wrath directed against unbelieving Israel, just as God has directed His wrath against Israel during times of great apostasy and rebellion. During the Babylonian Judgment, wicked, vile Israel was exiled from their country and abandoned in captivity for 70 years. That was a severe judgment that lasted an entire generation.

Jesus was saying that the coming "Great Distress" would be greater than the Babylonian Captivity! It would last longer than 70 years. It would be far worse than anything Israel had ever faced in her history, including the Egyptian bondage, which lasted hundreds of years.

The Roman invasion in 70 AD began a period of exile for the Jewish People that has lasted for 2000 years! It has been so bad and so long that Christians in the 2nd and 3rd century had already begun to give up on any hope of Israel's physical return to their land. It was so bad that Christians lost all faith in the literal meaning of Israel and began to replace it with a metaphorical "Israel" representing the international Church!
 
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Randy Kluth

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Do you think when Michael arises it is also the time when Michael fights the dragon in Revelation 12:7?
Daniel 12:1 says at that time Michael will arise, so if Revelation 12:7 happens after the book of Daniel was written but before Michael arises in Daniel 12:1 then Michael doesn’t arise when he fights the dragon, which would seem odd.
Good question. This is just my take on it--open to debate.

I think Dan 12.1 is speaking of the time when Antiochus 4 was passing the torch from the Syrians to the Romans. And it would be the Romans that the angels had to guard against because they would initially challenge the birth and survival of the Church. It was the Romans who killed Christ and who killed some of the apostles. It was the Romans who sometimes tried to stamp out Christianity. The angels prevailed.

In Rev 12, this history is abbreviated and applied specifically in the last period of NT history. It is Satan's final effort at stamping out Christianity which will, of course, fail again.
 

grafted branch

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As I've been saying for some time now, Jesus associated this Great Tribulation with God's wrath directed against unbelieving Israel, just as God has directed His wrath against Israel during times of great apostasy and rebellion. During the Babylonian Judgment, wicked, vile Israel was exiled from their country and abandoned in captivity for 70 years. That was a severe judgment that lasted an entire generation.

Jesus was saying that the coming "Great Distress" would be greater than the Babylonian Captivity! It would last longer than 70 years. It would be far worse than anything Israel had ever faced in her history, including the Egyptian bondage, which lasted hundreds of years.

The Roman invasion in 70 AD began a period of exile for the Jewish People that has lasted for 2000 years! It has been so bad and so long that Christians in the 2nd and 3rd century had already begun to give up on any hope of Israel's physical return to their land. It was so bad that Christians lost all faith in the literal meaning of Israel and began to replace it with a metaphorical "Israel" representing the international Church!
Alright, you are really saying then that the tribulation is great only in length of time and not necessarily the total number of Jews that make it through the tribulation.

Let me ask you this, Israel was blind in part until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. Couldn’t the great tribulation that “hasn’t happened from the beginning of nations until then” be the spiritual blindness that happens to Israel? I personally don’t think any physical tribulation can be greater than spiritual blindness.
 

grafted branch

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Good question. This is just my take on it--open to debate.

I think Dan 12.1 is speaking of the time when Antiochus 4 was passing the torch from the Syrians to the Romans. And it would be the Romans that the angels had to guard against because they would initially challenge the birth and survival of the Church. It was the Romans who killed Christ and who killed some of the apostles. It was the Romans who sometimes tried to stamp out Christianity. The angels prevailed.

In Rev 12, this history is abbreviated and applied specifically in the last period of NT history. It is Satan's final effort at stamping out Christianity which will, of course, fail again.
Ok, thanks for your thoughts on that. It seems to me that there are problems with saying “Michael arises” is a single event in both Daniel 12 and Revelation 12, but there are also problems with claiming Michael didn’t arise or take a stand when he fights the dragon.

I was thinking that the event that hasn’t happened from the beginning of nations until then could be the war in heaven, as that war only happens once, never to be repeated.
 

Randy Kluth

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Just like to focus for a moment on one little paragraph I offered...
In his Olivet Discourse, Jesus used the term "great distress," or "great tribulation," to describe this Jewish history in which the people generally would appear lost and under judgment, while only a relative few remain true to God. It would be a time when the people lose their spirituality, persecuting or rejecting Christianity, while only a relative few choose to follow Jesus and anticipate a return of Israel to true spirituality and fidelity to God.

When we speak of the Great Tribulation we have to ask ourselves, Is this about God's People, ie Christians suffering Great Persecution, or is this about backslidden, spiritually-lost Israel suffering God's Wrath and Punishment?

I've been arguing that it is BOTH! It is primarily a punishment of Israel for rejecting their Messiah and for disrespecting God's Law. Externally they continued to observe legal ceremonies while inwardly they were full of hatred and rebellion against God. They did not operate by faith in who God really was, but really observed their own version of "God."

So this lawlessness, this disobedience was punished by God in the same way He always had--only worse. Whereas in the past God abandoned Israel to generational judgments and temporary exiles, this act of disobedience and rebellion was so vile and in the face of God's Son that national Israel was sent into exile for many generations. It is called the "Jewish Diaspora."

But it also involved Christian persecution and suffering. Why? Jesus at the time was addressing Jews while still under the Law. Only the Jews figured at that time, and Jesus was addressing Jews who would become Christians.

He informed them that part of the nation turning to sin would be manifest in their persecution, their rejection of anything Christian. Christians would suffer the very sins that would cause God to throw Israel into the Diaspora!

So BOTH things happened in this Great Distress--national Israel would be sent packing for generations, and Christians among them would suffer the loss of their homeland along with them, along with persecution for being Christian!

So look at this rather "small minority of believers" who I said currently represents the hope of Israel's national restoration. We see them, I think, in Revelation 7, where they are numbered at 144,000. And why? There were 12 tribes originally that had formed into the nation. They were the ones promised a nation which in this Great Tribulation would seem to end.

This 144,000 was numbered like the number Elijah was quoted when he thought Israel was lost to paganism. When he thought all was lost God consoled him by assuring him that 7000 remained true to Him, if only in caves, hiding.

So this number reflects, symbolically, a rather small remnant that perseveres on behalf of all 12 tribes. The tribal distinctions actually passed when Israel became a nation, except for some lesser matters. Politically, the tribes had ceased to exist. So why did John see this remnant portrayed by a multiplication of 12 tribes?

It was because the 12 tribes were originally promised a nation, and God was going to stick with this by referring to a rather small remnant still existing in the nation when nobody even saw them any longer. It is irrelevant whether there should be 12 actual tribes any longer. The number reflected each tribe symbolically in an actual number of believers. The hope of national Israel's restoration was therefore portrayed in this number.

Not just 7000 for the nation, but 12,000 representing each tribe! The hope of Israel's national future lies with the remnant of believers! This may have had to be represented symbolically because of the current political climate, Romans viewing both Jews and Christians as a threat. Any hope of restoration would be quashed.
 
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grafted branch

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Just like to focus for a moment on one little paragraph I offered...
In his Olivet Discourse, Jesus used the term "great distress," or "great tribulation," to describe this Jewish history in which the people generally would appear lost and under judgment, while only a relative few remain true to God. It would be a time when the people lose their spirituality, persecuting or rejecting Christianity, while only a relative few choose to follow Jesus and anticipate a return of Israel to true spirituality and fidelity to God.

When we speak of the Great Tribulation we have to ask ourselves, Is this about God's People, ie Christians suffering Great Persecution, or is this about backslidden, spiritually-lost Israel suffering God's Wrath and Punishment?

I've been arguing that it is BOTH! It is primarily a punishment of Israel for rejecting their Messiah and for disrespecting God's Law. Externally they continued to observe legal ceremonies while inwardly they were full of hatred and rebellion against God. They did not operate by faith in who God really was, but really observed their own version of "God."

So this lawlessness, this disobedience was punished by God in the same way He always had--only worse. Whereas in the past God abandoned Israel to generational judgments and temporary exiles, this act of disobedience and rebellion was so vile and in the face of God's Son that national Israel was sent into exile for many generations. It is called the "Jewish Diaspora."

But it also involved Christian persecution and suffering. Why? Jesus at the time was addressing Jews while still under the Law. Only the Jews figured at that time, and Jesus was addressing Jews who would become Christians.

He informed them that part of the nation turning to sin would be manifest in their persecution, their rejection of anything Christian. Christians would suffer the very sins that would cause God to throw Israel into the Diaspora!

So BOTH things happened in this Great Distress--national Israel would be sent packing for generations, and Christians among them would suffer the loss of their homeland along with them, along with persecution for being Christian!

So look at this rather "small minority of believers" who I said currently represents the hope of Israel's national restoration. We see them, I think, in Revelation 7, where they are numbered at 144,000. And why? There were 12 tribes originally that had formed into the nation. They were the ones promised a nation which in this Great Tribulation would seem to end.

This 144,000 was numbered like the number Elijah was quoted when he thought Israel was lost to paganism. When he thought all was lost God consoled him by assuring him that 7000 remained true to Him, if only in caves, hiding.

So this number reflects, symbolically, a rather small remnant that perseveres on behalf of all 12 tribes. The tribal distinctions actually passed when Israel became a nation, except for some lesser matters. Politically, the tribes had ceased to exist. So why did John see this remnant portrayed by a multiplication of 12 tribes?

It was because the 12 tribes were originally promised a nation, and God was going to stick with this by referring to a rather small remnant still existing in the nation when nobody even saw them any longer. It is irrelevant whether there should be 12 actual tribes any longer. The number reflected each tribe symbolically in an actual number of believers. The hope of national Israel's restoration was therefore portrayed in this number.

Not just 7000 for the nation, but 12,000 representing each tribe! The hope of Israel's national future lies with the remnant of believers! This may have had to be represented symbolically because of the current political climate, Romans viewing both Jews and Christians as a threat. Any hope of restoration would be quashed.
So are we, believers, currently experiencing the great tribulation?
 

Behold

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As I've been saying for some time now, Jesus associated this Great Tribulation with God's wrath directed against unbelieving Israel,

Paul teaches otherwise.

Paul teaches that Jesus is coming ... 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9, in "flaming fire", "taking vengeance" on ....

On who?

"WHO"?

A.) not just Israel.

Paul says that Jesus is coming to do that to all who "obey not the GOSPEL"...

(To obey the Gospel, is to BELIEVE IT)...

And that is more than just "Israel" during the Grt Trib.

The BORN AGAIN ,have already OBEYED the Gospel, so, this is why the "church" is excluded from that WRATH on = ALL UNBELIEVERS. (never born again).
 

Davidpt

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Ok, thanks for your thoughts on that. It seems to me that there are problems with saying “Michael arises” is a single event in both Daniel 12 and Revelation 12, but there are also problems with claiming Michael didn’t arise or take a stand when he fights the dragon.

I was thinking that the event that hasn’t happened from the beginning of nations until then could be the war in heaven, as that war only happens once, never to be repeated.


The way Daniel 12:1 reads to me is like such. It is at the end of this period involving trouble that can't be equaled when Michael initially stands up, thus it is the worst time of trouble any saint on this planet has ever experienced since the beginning of mankind. And when Michael stands up it then leads to what is recorded in Daniel 12:2 at that time.

Clearly, when Michael is fighting satan in Revelation 12, it does not then lead to what is recorded in Daniel 12:2 at that time. It leads to the following instead, meaning Revelation 12:9-17, where none of that has anything to do with Daniel 12:2 at this point in time.

And please, let's don't compare Noah's flood to great tribulation. The former is involving God's wrath and judgment. The latter is not involving God's wrath nor His judgment upon anyone at this point. The latter is involving satan's persecution of the church during the 42 month reign of the beast in the end of this age, where some of us take this same 42 months to be meaning the 2nd half of the 70th week. God's wrath and judgment are not until the beast has reigned 42 months first.

God's wrath and judgment begins immediately after the beast has reigned for 42 months first, thus the day of the Lord then begins. By having great tribulation meaning what happened to unbelieving Jews in the first century pertaining to 70 AD is to then render the following passage nonsensical since it would have to logically mean that these that came out of great tribulation, these are meaning the unbelieving Jews that were slaughtered during 70 AD and leading up to it.

Revelation 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Anyone insisting that they always interpret Scripture with Scripture is contradicting what they claim they always do, if they are not interpreting Matthew 24:21 in light of Revelation 7:13-14, but are applying Matthew 24:21 to the first century and 70 AD instead.
 

Davidpt

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When we speak of the Great Tribulation we have to ask ourselves, Is this about God's People, ie Christians suffering Great Persecution, or is this about backslidden, spiritually-lost Israel suffering God's Wrath and Punishment?

I've been arguing that it is BOTH!

Except it can't fit both since there is zero way anyone could possibly be misunderstanding whom the following are not meaning.

Revelation 7:13 ¶And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


This is not meaning any unbelieving Jews that are still unsaved when they die. Nor is it meaning any unbelieving Gentiles that are still unsaved when they die. Therefore, Matthew 24:21 and great tribulation involves the persecution and deaths of those that Revelation 7:13-14 is pertaining to. Not the persecution and deaths of those that are still unsaved when they die.

The following is pertaining to great tribulation, meaning verse 5.

Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.


These in verse 4, who is it that is persecuting and killing some of these during the 42 month reign? Nobody, that's who. The beast certainly isn't persecuting and killing any of these in verse 4 during it's reign if these are doing this at the time--And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Compared with this.

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them....

Revelation 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Thus verse 15 then explains the martyrdom recorded in Revelation 20:4 pertaining to this---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

Which then tells us that the 42 month reign of the beast is already in the past when satan is loosed from the pit. Which then tells us that only Premil can be the correct view since Jesus returns at the end of the beast's 42 month reign. Therefore, when satan is loosed from the pit it is meaning way after Jesus had already returned earlier. And not this instead--Jesus returns at the end of satan's little season. No He doesn't. Jesus returns at the end of great tribulation, meaning at the end of the 42 month reign of the beast, since that and great tribulation are one and the same. The 42 month reign of the beast precedes satan's little season, not parallels it.

This last part was for our Amil friends, since they are the ones making chronological nonsense out of some of these things, not we Premils instead.
 
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ScottA

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Why are the 3.5 years at the end of the age identified as "the Great Tribulation?"

Because the "great" sum total of all "tribulation" was placed upon Christ...and subsequently, His body.

Which is the fulfillment of: "and after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary" (Daniel 9:26).
 

Truth7t7

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And so, this final period of 3.5 years is often called "the Great Tribulation," as well. Israel will continue to appear as lost, but will also be represented by believers who anticipate Israel's restoration to God as a nation.
Israel isn't going to receive national salvation/restoration as you continue to claim, only the remnant will be saved and added to the church on earth, the rest are blinded

You falsely claim "Israel" will obtain, scripture teaches otherwise

Romans 11:7-8KJV
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
 

Randy Kluth

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Israel isn't going to receive national salvation/restoration as you continue to claim, only the remnant will be saved and added to the church on earth, the rest are blinded
Regardless of what we believe about promises God supposedly made to Abraham, we can *never* say that a nation cannot convert to Christianity as a nation, just as we cannot say that the unsaved cannot be saved. Though it is sometimes denied, there have been many Christian nations in history. This doesn't have to mean that an entire nation is saved--only that the population has generally embraced Christianity as their national religion. Israel could certainly do this if they so chose to do so.
You falsely claim "Israel" will obtain, scripture teaches otherwise

Romans 11:7-8KJV
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
My claim is not refuted by this passage, ie Rom 11.7-8. Paul was describing the present state of national Israel. At this time there is only a small remnant of Christians among the Jewish People as a whole. Christianity is resisted among the Jews.

And yet Paul argued that in the future prophecy would be fulfilled in which the whole nation converts to Christianity and is no longer oppressed by other nations as a judgment from God.

Rom 11.25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”


I'm not really interested in engaging with a hostile spirit. However, others deserve to know where I stand on this.
 

Randy Kluth

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Because the "great" sum total of all "tribulation" was placed upon Christ...and subsequently, His body.

Which is the fulfillment of: "and after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary" (Daniel 9:26).
Well, that's an interesting way of looking at it. I may not agree with it, but it's certainly a novel and interesting approach to the "great tribulation!" It does seem that Christ's terrible suffering in death was intended to be associated with Israel's terrible suffering under the judgment of national sin.
 

Randy Kluth

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Except it can't fit both since there is zero way anyone could possibly be misunderstanding whom the following are not meaning.

Revelation 7:13 ¶And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
I'm not sure "great tribulation" here is a direct reference back to the "Great Tribulation" Jesus defined as a national judgment against the Jewish People? A term like "great tribulation" does not retain a single meaning and context just because it is used in different places in the Bible. Each time the term is used it is *context* that determines its meaning.

I would argue that there is an aassocition between the "great tribulation" of Dan 7.14 and Jesus' use of the term in his Olivet Discourse. But it is not an exact correlation since the context is different. In the Olivet Discourse the focus is on the destruction of the Jewish Temple and on the age-long judgment of the Jewish people, from 70 AD to Christ's Return.

But in Rev 7.13-14 the context is speaking not just of the nation Israel, but much more, of the entire international body of Christians throughout the earth. Therefore, the term is not being used synonymously even though it is a reference to the same kind of trouble on earth where God's People fail and are judged, and where the earth therefore suffers for lack of the knowledge of God.

Christians do suffer along with the world in its paganism and judgment. We are not the object of God's judgment, nor are we guilty of the same pagan sins. But God sees fit that we suffer in the world we share with pagans just as Christ also suffered in a world that he did not share sin with.
This is not meaning any unbelieving Jews that are still unsaved when they die. Nor is it meaning any unbelieving Gentiles that are still unsaved when they die. Therefore, Matthew 24:21 and great tribulation involves the persecution and deaths of those that Revelation 7:13-14 is pertaining to. Not the persecution and deaths of those that are still unsaved when they die.
You are mentioning the Olivet Discourse, the 144,000, and the Great Multitude all in the same breath. It gets too confusing for me. Sorry!
 
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Randy Kluth

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Paul teaches otherwise.

Paul teaches that Jesus is coming ... 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9, in "flaming fire", "taking vengeance" on ....

On who?

"WHO"?

A.) not just Israel.

Paul says that Jesus is coming to do that to all who "obey not the GOSPEL"...
I, of course, believe that Jesus is coming again, according to 2 Thes 1.8-9. But his Coming to judge all, and not just Israel, does not preclude Israel from being the main object of wrath in Jesus' Olivet Discourse. The focus, in that Discourse, is on Israel, since it is still an OT address in which Israel figures predominantly.

The 2nd Coming is mentioned, which we know is all-encompassing. But that is not the main focus of this address, which began with a prophetic reference to the soon coming of judgment upon Jerusalem by Roman armies.