False Doctrine of the "Secret Rapture".

[Douggg]

Whatever "the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world" is referring to, it's something that at least could have potentially occurred during the lifetimes of those in that first century church. If it's referring to the great tribulation before Christ's return, then remember that no one knows when that will happen except for the Father (Matthew 24:36). So, if that's what Jesus was referring to, then He would only have been talking about it in terms of what He would do for them if the hour of temptation came upon the world while they were still alive. And He wouldn't have known if they would be or not since He didn't know when He would return and only the Father knew that (see Matthew 24:36).

Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

[rebuilder 454]

That isn't true, either (the first thing you said). Yes, it is partly about that, but, overall, it's about all the time between His first and second coming with a bit about what comes after that (new heavens and new earth). Why would chapters 2 and 3 refer to first century churches, but then the rest of the book is only about the last 7 years of history before Christ's return? That makes no sense and is not true.

Sound like preterism.
Are you preterist?

 

[rebuilder 454]

Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Yes indeed
7 letters to 7 churches were both for them and us.

 

[rebuilder 454]

What do you think you're proving by posting this? Again, the church in Philadelphia was an actual first century church in the ancient province of Asia attended by real first century people. That is undeniable. Jesus was speaking in present tense there telling the people of that first century church what He would do for them because they (those first century Christians) had "kept the word of my patience". So, why are you trying to deny that?

Also, that verse has nothing to do with escaping the rapture. The Greek words translated as "keep" and "from" there are "tereo and "ek". They are used in this verse as well:

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep (Greek: tereo) them from (Greek: ek) the evil.

Can you see here how keeping someone from something has nothing to do with taking them out of the world? Instead, it has to do with protecting them while still in the world. So, you are misinterpreting Revelation 3:10 in multiple ways.

Just the opposite.
You are basically saying the pretrib rapture cannot possibly keep us from the hour of temptation.
The rapture has a "worthy" component.
We see it in the 10 virgin parable.
We see it with lot
We see it with Noah.
We see that worthy component in rev 3 also.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The first century churches in Revelation 2-3 represent types of believers..

The church of Philadelphia represents believers who will escape going through the great tribulation via the rapture.

Yes
without a doubt.

 

[rebuilder 454]

What do you think you're proving by posting this? Again, the church in Philadelphia was an actual first century church in the ancient province of Asia attended by real first century people. That is undeniable. Jesus was speaking in present tense there telling the people of that first century church what He would do for them because they (those first century Christians) had "kept the word of my patience". So, why are you trying to deny that?

Also, that verse has nothing to do with escaping the rapture. The Greek words translated as "keep" and "from" there are "tereo and "ek". They are used in this verse as well:

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep (Greek: tereo) them from (Greek: ek) the evil.

Can you see here how keeping someone from something has nothing to do with taking them out of the world? Instead, it has to do with protecting them while still in the world. So, you are misinterpreting Revelation 3:10 in multiple ways.

Apples and oranges.
Every believer left behind is martyred by the AC.
Every disciple save John was murdered by Satan.
Your model does not fit at all.
Believers are not in any way kept from evil in the GT.
Only Jews are ushered away on earth.
Christians left behind on earth are martyred.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I completely disagree. Revelation is not a book about the last 7 years of history before Christ's return. You have such a narrow view of the book. The book was addressed to seven first century churches. You think nothing in the book applies to them? Revelation covers the entire New Testament time period leading up to the return of Christ, not just the last seven years. The time periods referenced in the highly symbolic book of Revelation are all symbolic and not meant to be taken literally as you do.

Nope
The seals begin with the kinsman redeemer in rev 5
That post resurrection.
The AC on a white horse kicks off the 7 yr tub.
The AC is yet to arrive.
The entire book is future.

 

[Timtofly]

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. 3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

So, is this all in chronological order? Did the seventh trumpet sound before Jesus was born and before He ascended to heaven? Which would mean God's wrath came, the wicked were destroyed, the dead were judged and His people were rewarded before Jesus was born?

Do you not understand a parenthetical observation?

You are one of those who keep saying that Revelation is too symbolic, that you miss out on all the actual events, mesmerized by the symbolic part.

 

[Timtofly]

John was presented numerous visions during his time in heaven. That he later compiled as the book of Revelation.

Nope.

John went to the Day of the Lord.

He was writing as he saw things happen. Revelation 10:4

"And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not."

John was writing everything down as they happened, but was told not to write about the 7 Thunders.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Just quoting scripture without any commentary on why you are quoting it proves nothing. This does not have the same context as Revelation 3:10. This is talking about escaping the wrath that will come down on "that day" which is the day of Christ's return. Revelation 3:10 is talking about being protected from "the hour of temptation", whatever that is. And it's not talking about being taken away from anything or escaping something.

As I said, even if Revelation 3:10 was referring to something that would happen just before Christ's return, it doesn't change the fact that it was a first century church being addressed there. To try to change it as if it was addressed to anyone else is a case of changing scripture to fit your doctrine. Instead of changing scripture the way you're doing, I have to assume that if Jesus in Revelation 3:10 was referring to something that would occur just before His return then He was talking in terms of what He would do for them (protect them while they were on th earth, not remove them from the earth) if they were alive at the time.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Sound like preterism.
Are you preterist?

No. While I may agree with preterists in their understanding of Matthew 24:15-21 (Mark 13:14-19, Luke 21:20-24), I disagree with them on the rest of the Olivet Discourse. Or most of it, at least. Even preterists differ to some extent in how they interpret it.

For example, preterists don't believe that Matthew 24:29-31 is related to the future return of Jesus Christ, but I do.

 

[rebuilder 454]

No. While I may agree with preterists in their understanding of Matthew 24:15-21 (Mark 13:14-19, Luke 21:20-24), I disagree with them on the rest of the Olivet Discourse. Or most of it, at least. Even preterists differ to some extent in how they interpret it.

For example, preterists don't believe that Matthew 24:29-31 is related to the future return of Jesus Christ, but I do.

sounds plausible

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Do you not understand a parenthetical observation?

Of course I do. It's not chronological to what came before it, right? Yet, you are acting as if the entire book is chronological. We have one clear example where that is not the case, but for some reason you don't allow for that to be the case anywhere else in the book. The reason must be your doctrinal bias.

You are one of those who keep saying that Revelation is too symbolic, that you miss out on all the actual events, mesmerized by the symbolic part.

Too symbolic? When did I say that? Not, it's just the right amount of symbolic. The symbolic text represents actual events symbolically. I don't miss out on the actual events. You clearly don't have any understanding on how symbolism works, so you misinterpret the entire book.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Just the opposite.
You are basically saying the pretrib rapture cannot possibly keep us from the hour of temptation.
The rapture has a "worthy" component.
We see it in the 10 virgin parable.
We see it with lot
We see it with Noah.
We see that worthy component in rev 3 also.

It seems that you missed the point entirely.

The Greek words translated as "keep" and "from" there in Revelation 3:10 are "tereo and "ek". They are used in this verse as well:

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep (Greek: tereo) them from (Greek: ek) the evil.

Can you see here how keeping someone from something has nothing to do with taking them out of the world? Instead, it has to do with protecting them while still in the world.

Why do you assume that Revelation 3:10 has anything to do with anyone being taken out of the world, when the same words are used in John 17:15 in the sense of being protected while still in the world rather than being taken out of the world?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Apples and oranges.
Every believer left behind is martyred by the AC.
Every disciple save John was murdered by Satan.
Your model does not fit at all.
Believers are not in any way kept from evil in the GT.

It's called in Revelation 3:10 "the hour of temptation". So, Jesus was not necessarily talking about keeping them from being killed, but rather about keeping them from being deceived. You need to look at the context.

Only Jews are ushered away on earth.

What are you talking about here?

Christians left behind on earth are martyred.

Do you believe the following verse describes something that will happen when the rapture occurs?

2 Thessalonians 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Nope
The seals begin with the kinsman redeemer in rev 5
That post resurrection.
The AC on a white horse kicks off the 7 yr tub.
The AC is yet to arrive.
The entire book is future.

Thanks for sharing your beliefs, but I don't find your post to be convincing at all. Please back up your claims with scripture. If you just share your beliefs like this, it doesn't mean much to me because I see nothing to back them up.

 

[The Light]

This verse does not say Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord is the thousand year millennium.

I used to think the same.

However, the one year day of the Lord is the day of vengeance. The millenniam does not start until Jesus sets His foot on the mount of Olives at the 7th trumpet..............when the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord.

This is a day of wrath, and a year of recompences. And who is the Lord here? God or the Lamb or both?

The day of the Lord is a day of vengeance and a year of recompense. We can conclude the Day of the Lord is one year.

This would include letting Satan have control, as Satan can be used as a recompence by God. Any part of creation can be used to bring judgment and punishment which is the same as wrath and recompence. God used water in the Flood. God used fire and brimstone at Sodom. What is to prevent God from using Satan as a tool to carry out recompences?

Satan is not doing anything to the saints during the days of the Lord as the only ones on earth will be in a place of protection.

The 6th Seal is the coming of the Day of the Lord. All the events of Revelation's 4 sets of Judgments are preparing for the Day of the Lord. The baptism of fire in 2 Peter 3 is the 6th Seal. All the earth will be laid bare and waste, and that is why mankind is hiding under the rubble and in the mountain's caves wanting to die, to avoid facing more of The Lord's vengeance. This is the start of Jacob's trouble, and it may last a day or a year. However long this time will be, will be determined in the midst of the days of the 7th Trumpet per Daniel 9:27. Because all this time is a harvest of every last human, the removal of the transgression, the end of sin, and the end of Adam's punishment placing earth under the bondage of death. When the 7th Trumpet stops, the mystery given in the OT that Israel could not understand will be brought to completion.

you are correct that sixth seal is the coming of the day of the Lord. It will begin when the 7th seal is opened. It will end at the 7th trumpet and the millennial kingdom will be set up.

 

[The Light]

The difference being no events happen in Matthew 24 or the seals. They are only showing events that will happen in the future. Rev 19 is the event happening.

When the seals are opened the events happen. The second coming is when the 6th seal is opened. The 1 year day of the Lord begins when the 7th seal is opened. Rev 19 is part of the day of the Lord. At the 7th trumpet Jesus will set His feet on the mount of Olives. This is the second advent.

This is why Christ is not shown to leave heaven when he opens the 6th seal. The seals are prophecies of future events not the events described actually happening at that time.

He is in heaven and the seal is opened. He comes to the earth for the second harvest and then returns to heaven. That is why there is a great multitude in heaven in Rev 7 some who come out of the great tribulation.

Additionally, your views do not hold up as you have the Church going through the wrath of God and we are not appointed to wrath.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

He is in heaven and the seal is opened. He comes to the earth for the second harvest and then returns to heaven. That is why there is a great multitude in heaven in Rev 7 some who come out of the great tribulation.

Is there not a great multitude in heaven now? Has there not been a great multitude in heaven for a long time already? It does not say they came out of THE great tribulation. It says they came out of great tribulation. Just as we all do.

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

 

[The Light]

Is there not a great multitude in heaven now? Has there not been a great multitude in heaven for a long time already? It does not say they came out of THE great tribulation. It says they came out of great tribulation. Just as we all do.

Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

What is the tribulation of those days................The great tribulation.

Matthew 24
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

By the signs of the sun and moon going dark and the stars falling from heaven we can tell the great tribulation in over at the 6th seal.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.