False Doctrine of the "Secret Rapture".

[ewq1938]

There are two brides.

No, just one according to the bible:

Rev_21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev_21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
Rev_22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

It is bride singular in the Greek, never brides plural because there is one symbolic bride not two.

 

[Timtofly]

Here in Isaiah, we see the 6th seal event.

So does 2 Peter 3, say the same thing, and all the works of earth will be burned up with fire.

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

No Temple can be built in Jerusalem until after that point, or it would be destroyed as well.

Seems to me that when Jerusalem is surrounded by armies, whether or not a nuclear war happens, God will destroy the entire earth with fire way more productive than even thousands of nukes, then Jesus will stand on the Mount of Olives and rebuild the whole area around Jerusalem including a new temple, and throne. If the baptism of fire is not a display of power and glory, per Zechariah 14, nothing else could be.

The reason it is secret is because it comes as a thief in the night, and no one can know when that will happen, especially not even an impulsive reaction of nuclear war, as a warning. No one plans out a nuclear war, people just hit buttons on impulse. I am not even saying the sun, or a nuclear war is the mechanism of this baptism of fire.

God could be watching people on earth attempt to destroy themselves, and then put on a display of His power and glory to make what man tries look small in comparison. But seems it is God moving the chess pieces, no matter what happens, and the Second Coming will be as unexpected and more so than a world wide war.

 

[The Light]

The difference being no events happen in Matthew 24 or the seals. They are only showing events that will happen in the future. Rev 19 is the event happening.

The real difference is that the Revelation 19 event occurs during the 7th seal, the trumpets which is the wrath of God and the events of Matthew 24 and Rev 6, the 1st 6 seals, occur during the tribulation.................which the Church will escape from.

This is why Christ is not shown to leave heaven when he opens the 6th seal.

Incorrect. Christ returns to heaven with the great multitude.

The seals are prophecies of future events not the events described actually happening at that time.

The 1st six six seals are prophecies of events that happen in the tribulation of those days. Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the seventh seal containing the trumpets are prophecies of events that happen in the wrath of God.

 

[The Light]

No, just one according to the bible:

Rev_21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev_21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
Rev_22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

It is bride singular in the Greek, never brides plural because there is one symbolic bride not two.

And then there is this. We are all the bride of Christ.

Rev 19
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Matthew 25
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

 

[Timtofly]

It is bride singular in the Greek, never brides plural because there is one symbolic bride not two.

Technically there are two, but Jacob is the first, not the church. Jesus spends the Day of the Lord, the Millennium with Israel. The church is still waiting in Paradise, like Jacob has had to wait during the fulness of the Gentiles. The wedding of Israel was supposed to happen in the first century, but the redemption of mankind was not complete, and has been ongoing for the last 2 millennia.

Amil will state that Revelation 19 and 21 are the same event.

"Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints."

The first marriage down the isle, so to speak, from heaven to earth are those armies on white horses. That is not the church bride. The church bride comes down in the New Jerusalem after the Day of the Lord.

The church is not married twice. One bride comes on white horses. The other in the New Jerusalem. Unless you follow Amil theology, there are two brides. Reformed amil will tell you the church is the only Israel bride. Historist do not allow such a distinction between two brides either as they lean towards post mill as only a single bride as well.

The majority of the church today is unwilling to see that at the 6th Seal, the church is removed, and then Jacob is placed front and center. That is even what Paul wrote:

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

Obviously for most it is still a mystery to them, that is resolved at the 7th Trumpet:

"But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

The Millennium is the promised marriage life as expressed here:

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

That is the promised relationship of the metaphor husband and wife promised by God. That will be life in the Day of the Lord without sin and natural decay from the bondage of sin. That is the promise of Isaiah 65. That happens pre-mill not after Revelation 20.

 

[The Light]

This is the start of Jacob's trouble,

At the 6th seal, all that remains of Jacob will be in the place of protection. All others will be at the marriage supper.

 

[The Light]

Read your Bible carefully...
Revelation 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Read yours carefully also. Every eye will see Him at the 6th seal. However, before that.................

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

[Timtofly]

At the 6th seal, all that remains of Jacob will be in the place of protection. All others will be at the marriage supper.

See, this is not allowing the separation of events, but you changing God's Word to fit your private opinion. You are literally using your own sledge hammer to force fit your opinion into Scripture.

Revelation is in chronological order, and John never backtracks to an event that already took place. The 7th Seal, once opened is past history, never to be mentioned again.

The GM in Revelation 7 started at the Cross with the thief next to Jesus. The OT redeemed have physically been serving God day and night in heaven for 2 millennia. The church has come out of great tribulation, the last 2 millennia. That is not a brand new event. That has been an ongoing phenomenon for 2 millennia. From God's perspective 2 days and 2 nights serving God waiving palm branches and enjoying physical Paradise, while the fulness of the Gentile harvest has also been adding to that number in the thousands, century after century. Those billions don't just suddenly appear, after the 6th Seal is opened. They have already been there since the Cross.

Jacob's trouble does not even start until after the 144k are sealed, the 7th Seal is opened, and only then can the Trumpets start the "role call" of the rest of Israel throughout the world.

"And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets."

You cannot have the Trumpets during the first 5 Seals. They don't even receive a Trumpet until after the 7th Seal is opened. Revelation 14 is not back in the Seals. Revelation 14 is the end of the days of the 7th Trumpet.

Trying to time swing that sledge hammer of yours is futile.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

See, this is not allowing the separation of events, but you changing God's Word to fit your private opinion. You are literally using your own sledge hammer to force fit your opinion into Scripture.

Revelation is in chronological order, and John never backtracks to an event that already took place.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. 3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

So, is this all in chronological order? Did the seventh trumpet sound before Jesus was born and before He ascended to heaven? Which would mean God's wrath came, the wicked were destroyed, the dead were judged and His people were rewarded before Jesus was born?

 

[Douggg]

The task of the reader of Revelation is to put events of the numerous visions that John was presented and that he recorded in Revelation into a chronological order that fits within the final 7 years leading up to Jesus's return.

Revelation is overall about the glorious return of the Lord Jesus Christ in great glory and power.

Use this time frames chart to assist you in your task. Some of the time frames end on Jesus's return day. And some of the time frames begin on the start of the 7 years. And three of the time frames (the 3 1/2 days, the 1290 days, the 5 months) are not connected on either end.

 

[Douggg]

You cannot have the Trumpets during the first 5 Seals. They don't even receive a Trumpet until after the 7th Seal is opened. Revelation 14 is not back in the Seals. Revelation 14 is the end of the days of the 7th Trumpet.

John was presented numerous visions during his time in heaven. That he later compiled as the book of Revelation. The task of the reader is to put the events presented in those numerous visions into chronological order within the 7 years that lead up to Jesus's return.

Regarding the trumpets and the vials, those fit within the portion of the 7 years that is called the great tribulation.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The task of the reader of Revelation is to put events of the numerous visions that John was presented and that he recorded in Revelation into a chronological order that fits within the final 7 years leading up to Jesus's return.

I completely disagree. Revelation is not a book about the last 7 years of history before Christ's return. You have such a narrow view of the book. The book was addressed to seven first century churches. You think nothing in the book applies to them? Revelation covers the entire New Testament time period leading up to the return of Christ, not just the last seven years. The time periods referenced in the highly symbolic book of Revelation are all symbolic and not meant to be taken literally as you do.

 

[Douggg]

I completely disagree. Revelation is not a book about the last 7 years of history before Christ's return. You have such a narrow view of the book. The book was addressed to seven first century churches. You think nothing in the book applies to them? Revelation covers the entire New Testament time period leading up to the return of Christ, not just the last seven years. The time periods referenced in the highly symbolic book of Revelation are all symbolic and not meant to be taken literally as you do.

I wrote - Revelation is overall about the glorious return of the Lord Jesus Christ in great glory and power.

Part of Revelation, Chapter 2 and Chapter 3, were messages to the seven churches.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I wrote - Revelation is overall about the glorious return of the Lord Jesus Christ in great glory and power.

Part of Revelation, Chapter 2 and Chapter 3, were messages to the seven churches.

That isn't true, either (the first thing you said). Yes, it is partly about that, but, overall, it's about all the time between His first and second coming with a bit about what comes after that (new heavens and new earth). Why would chapters 2 and 3 refer to first century churches, but then the rest of the book is only about the last 7 years of history before Christ's return? That makes no sense and is not true.

 

[Douggg]

That isn't true, either (the first thing you said). Yes, it is partly about that, but, overall, it's about all the time between His first and second coming with a bit about what comes after that (new heavens and new earth). Why would chapters 2 and 3 refer to first century churches, but then the rest of the book is only about the last 7 years of history before Christ's return? That makes no sense and is not true.

The first century churches in Revelation 2-3 represent types of believers..

The church of Philadelphia represents believers who will escape going through the great tribulation via the rapture.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The first century churches in Revelation 2-3 represent types of believers..

The church of Philadelphia represents believers who will escape going through the great tribulation via the rapture.

Doug, you continually make things up. You should not do that. What you're saying here is not indicated in the text whatsoever. The church of Philadelphia was an actual first century church attended by real people in the first century. It does not represent people who would live long after that church existed. That is complete nonsense.

 

[Douggg]

Doug, you continually make things up. You should not do that. What you're saying here is not indicated in the text whatsoever. The church of Philadelphia was an actual first century church attended by real people in the first century. It does not represent people who would live long after that church existed. That is complete nonsense.

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

What do you think you're proving by posting this? Again, the church in Philadelphia was an actual first century church in the ancient province of Asia attended by real first century people. That is undeniable. Jesus was speaking in present tense there telling the people of that first century church what He would do for them because they (those first century Christians) had "kept the word of my patience". So, why are you trying to deny that?

Also, that verse has nothing to do with escaping the rapture. The Greek words translated as "keep" and "from" there are "tereo and "ek". They are used in this verse as well:

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep (Greek: tereo) them from (Greek: ek) the evil.

Can you see here how keeping someone from something has nothing to do with taking them out of the world? Instead, it has to do with protecting them while still in the world. So, you are misinterpreting Revelation 3:10 in multiple ways.

 

[Douggg]

What do you think you're proving by posting this? Again, the church in Philadelphia was an actual first century church in the ancient province of Asia attended by real first century people. That is undeniable. Jesus was speaking in present tense there telling the people of that first century church what He would do for them because they (those first century Christians) had "kept the word of my patience". So, why are you trying to deny that?

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

The hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, is referring to the Great Tribulation.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

The hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, is referring to the Great Tribulation.

You're skating around the issue as you so often do. There is no indication in the text whatsoever that the verse is addressed to anyone except for the first century church in Philadelphia. So, you are adding things to the text that are not there at all by trying to say that verse is addressed to anyone else besides those who were part of the first century church in Philadelphia.

Whatever "the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world" is referring to, it's something that at least could have potentially occurred during the lifetimes of those in that first century church. If it's referring to the great tribulation before Christ's return, then remember that no one knows when that will happen except for the Father (Matthew 24:36). So, if that's what Jesus was referring to, then He would only have been talking about it in terms of what He would do for them if the hour of temptation came upon the world while they were still alive. And He wouldn't have known if they would be or not since He didn't know when He would return and only the Father knew that (see Matthew 24:36).