The Rapture: Harmonizing differing viewpoints.

[Justin Mangonel]

​

[font=Times New Roman"]The Rapture [/font]: Hamonizing Differing Viewpoint​

by​

Justin Mangonel​

Tabernacle Theology Series​

[font=Times New Roman"]When trying to understand any doctrine it is good to stand back and gain God's perspective. As I mentioned in some of my previous posts understanding Gods word is often hindered by a type of scriptural myopia that some develop when they get bogged down in the minutia of His word. In my view this is what has happened too many who hold different doctrinal positions on the rapture. People divide into different camps based upon certain scriptures that they believe prove the validity of their positions while other vehemently oppose them based upon thars. The reality of the situation is that neither one understands the underlying reasons for the rapture and thus cannot see the forest for the trees.

In the beginning God had an original plan for mankind that did not include sin. Had Satan not introduced his sin from outside the perfect system God had created Adam and his decedents would have taken a much different path. Here is a truth,[/font]​

[font=Times New Roman"]What we term as the rapture is just God's way of moving people around [/font]​

[font=Times New Roman"]Originally, God determined that man should live forever if he ate of the tree of life. Obviously, however slowly man procreated, the Earth would eventually become overpopulated. God's solution to this was to translate or rapture people who had walked with Him to be with Him in heaven. This was God's original plan and is the reason for catching people away. We see an example of this in this scripture,

"And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him." [/font]​

[font=Times New Roman"]Gen 5:22-24[/font]​

[font=Times New Roman"]The key to understanding the rapture is simply to realize that it is not a single event but an ongoing method that God uses to transport people back and forth to heaven. A modified version of it is when God instantaneously shifts people around on Earth. Viewed in this way, we see many raptures when we examine the Bible. Enoch, Elijah, Those raised from the dead when Jesus died, Christ at his ascension, Philip when he was caught away laterally, possibly Paul when he visited the third heaven, the Philadelphia church, the two witnesses, the 144,000, the two reapings at the end of time etc. In fact, there have probably been many more raptures of individuals and even whole groups that we are not aware of down throughout the ages.

Those who hold pre-trib, mid-trib, and post-trib doctrinal positions on the rapture are all partially right and all are partially wrong. They are right to say that a rapture does occur at these times but they are wrong to assert that raptures does not occur at the other times. The only people that are mostly wrong are those who decry our blessed hope and say there is no rapture at all.

You can never work out the details of a doctrine correctly if you start with wrong assumptions about it in the first place. You may be very enthusiastic about digging for gold and willing to work long hours to find it but if you are not in the right place to begin with you will have little success. This is why we must allow the Holy Spirit to lead and guide us into all truth for left to our own natural devices we will not know where to look for it in the first place. After we have been led to the correct place by His Spirit we can then use the tools we have been given to uncover the vein of gold that lies beneath our feet.

Revelation is just that: a revealing of that which is hidden or obscure. The book of Revelation is a book that reveals who Christ really is. Christ is the one who is worthy to take the little scroll from our Father and loose the seven seals so that he can read it. The scroll is in fact the lambs book of life that is written within and without with the names of those who are provisionally saved. However, the seven seals have to be removed to finally bring about our salvation experientially. This is why you hear in heaven that now has come salvation. Most of the book of Revelations is concerned this event and the consequences thereof. Only after Jesus has loosed the last seal is he able to read the scroll, descend with a shout, and raise the dead through resurrection. The shout that Jesus gives at that time is simply the calling out of all the names written in the lambs book of life. When we hear Him call our name our mortal body is quicken and we are raised from death incorruptible. Those which are alive and remain are raptured together with us to be with Jesus where He is forever. After a time we descend with Him into a New Heavens and New Earth (a reverse rapture) where we will live with Him in His everlasting kingdom. Raptures will still take place as God has need to move people about according to his purposes.

In conclusion, much of the misunderstanding of God's word stems from our lack of His perspective. Unless God points us in right direction we will never arrive at His desired destination. People often times, out of hubris; think they can crack these biblical doctrines through sheer force of their intelligence and hard work. This is simply not so. The Bible is constructed so that a even a fool need not err therein but God will resist the proud if they try to understand His truth by force. Our minds, when submitted to God in humility, are valid tools to be used in discovering the riches of His word yet let us never overestimate our grey matter when it comes to our personal contribution in actually understanding it. [/font]​

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Justin Mangonel.

​

The Rapture : Hamonizing Differing Viewpoint​

by​

Justin Mangonel​

Tabernacle Theology Series​

When trying to understand any doctrine it is good to stand back and gain God's perspective. As I mentioned in some of my previous posts understanding Gods word is often hindered by a type of scriptural myopia that some develop when they get bogged down in the minutia of His word. In my view this is what has happened too many who hold different doctrinal positions on the rapture. People divide into different camps based upon certain scriptures that they believe prove the validity of their positions while other vehemently oppose them based upon thars. The reality of the situation is that neither one understands the underlying reasons for the rapture and thus cannot see the forest for the trees.

In the beginning God had an original plan for mankind that did not include sin. Had Satan not introduced his sin from outside the perfect system God had created Adam and his decedents would have taken a much different path. Here is a truth,​

What we term as the rapture is just God's way of moving people around ​

Originally, God determined that man should live forever if he ate of the tree of life. Obviously, however slowly man procreated, the Earth would eventually become overpopulated. God's solution to this was to translate or rapture people who had walked with Him to be with Him in heaven. This was God's original plan and is the reason for catching people away. We see an example of this in this scripture,

"And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him." ​

Gen 5:22-24​

The key to understanding the rapture is simply to realize that it is not a single event but an ongoing method that God uses to transport people back and forth to heaven. A modified version of it is when God instantaneously shifts people around on Earth. Viewed in this way, we see many raptures when we examine the Bible. Enoch, Elijah, Those raised from the dead when Jesus died, Christ at his ascension, Philip when he was caught away laterally, possibly Paul when he visited the third heaven, the Philadelphia church, the two witnesses, the 144,000, the two reapings at the end of time etc. In fact, there have probably been many more raptures of individuals and even whole groups that we are not aware of down throughout the ages.

Those who hold pre-trib, mid-trib, and post-trib doctrinal positions on the rapture are all partially right and all are partially wrong. They are right to say that a rapture does occur at these times but they are wrong to assert that raptures does not occur at the other times. The only people that are mostly wrong are those who decry our blessed hope and say there is no rapture at all.

You can never work out the details of a doctrine correctly if you start with wrong assumptions about it in the first place. You may be very enthusiastic about digging for gold and willing to work long hours to find it but if you are not in the right place to begin with you will have little success. This is why we must allow the Holy Spirit to lead and guide us into all truth for left to our own natural devices we will not know where to look for it in the first place. After we have been led to the correct place by His Spirit we can then use the tools we have been given to uncover the vein of gold that lies beneath our feet.

Revelation is just that: a revealing of that which is hidden or obscure. The book of Revelation is a book that reveals who Christ really is. Christ is the one who is worthy to take the little scroll from our Father and loose the seven seals so that he can read it. The scroll is in fact the lambs book of life that is written within and without with the names of those who are provisionally saved. However, the seven seals have to be removed to finally bring about our salvation experientially. This is why you hear in heaven that now has come salvation. Most of the book of Revelations is concerned this event and the consequences thereof. Only after Jesus has loosed the last seal is he able to read the scroll, descend with a shout, and raise the dead through resurrection. The shout that Jesus gives at that time is simply the calling out of all the names written in the lambs book of life. When we hear Him call our name our mortal body is quicken and we are raised from death incorruptible. Those which are alive and remain are raptured together with us to be with Jesus where He is forever. After a time we descend with Him into a New Heavens and New Earth (a reverse rapture) where we will live with Him in His everlasting kingdom. Raptures will still take place as God has need to move people about according to his purposes.

In conclusion, much of the misunderstanding of God's word stems from our lack of His perspective. Unless God points us in right direction we will never arrive at His desired destination. People often times, out of hubris; think they can crack these biblical doctrines through sheer force of their intelligence and hard work. This is simply not so. The Bible is constructed so that a even a fool need not err therein but God will resist the proud if they try to understand His truth by force. Our minds, when submitted to God in humility, are valid tools to be used in discovering the riches of His word yet let us never overestimate our grey matter when it comes to our personal contribution in actually understanding it. ​

God's original plan was NOT without the factor of mankind's sins. God doesn't have to revise His plan based on contingencies! Furthermore, haSatan is NOT the "yin" to God's "yang!" (Or, would it be the other way around? No matter.) HaSatan is NOT all-powerful in a negative way, nor is He the opposite force to God. Every time one begins with the idea that haSatan "introduced his sin from outside the perfect system God had created [for] Adam and his descendants" is a lie meant to make haSatan seem more powerful than he is! That's a VERY dangerous business! Sin is not the opposite to righteousness. Sin is the "HOLE in the doughnut" of righteousness! Hatred is the LACK of love; darkness is the LACK of light; lying is the LACK of truthfulness; and even death is the LACK of life! Righteousness is the reality; sins are a fake "reality!" If you learn that fundamental truth, you will avoid making ignorant statements about God. God is fully in charge and has not had to alter His plan at all, "declaring the end from the beginning." He doesn't just KNOW the end from the beginning; He DECLARED it!

There are also several errors that you are making that are rather fundamental, as well, such as "Heaven," what is the "third heaven," the name of the book "Revelations" instead of "Revelation," the idea that Phillip was snatched away "laterally," what and where "paradise" is, that "salvation has already come," and that there have been several raptures down through time. The crux of the matter is that you don't even understand the PURPOSE for the rapture! It's not "to transport people back and forth to Heaven!" Its purpose is to transport His people quickly to Isra'el to aid in the rescue of His people, Isra'el!

Don't feel bad, though. You're hardly the first to have erroneous interpretations of Scripture, and you won't be the last. Furthermore, God doesn't hold it against you.

 

[Justin Mangonel]

I have no response to that.

 

[Powerful weakness]

Misread something. Carry on.

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Yes, God does revise His plan quite often because of our disobedience. The Flood was a major one. Aaron being Moses right hand man was another. the forty years in the wilderness is yet another...and the list goes on and on. This is not in doubt.

 

[Rex]

Yes, God does revise His plan quite often because of our disobedience.

?

 

[martinlawrencescott]

His revisions are preordained and not really revisions. Delays are not really delays, though these all bring "what ifs" into question. I think they are fairly Biblical and rational "what ifs".

I kind of share part of your view about the martyrdom being a period of time event, but, as well, a grand finale for the church. Perhaps he has used this catching away method previously, but it doesn't really take away from the specificity of the events coordinated in scripture either. The problem with your view is that it merely defines the rapture; a method God uses for transporting people, which someone could then use for his or her interpretation of the rapture. It doesn't really contradict anyone's view, unless they disagree with "how" someone is taken up or put down.

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Hey Servant,

Well, what I am saying is that portions of many differing viewpoints are correct...thus the harmonization.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Justin Mangonel.

Yes, God does revise His plan quite often because of our disobedience. The Flood was a major one. Aaron being Moses right hand man was another. the forty years in the wilderness is yet another...and the list goes on and on. This is not in doubt.

So you're saying that God revises His plan, CHANGES His plan, depending on the moment?

Malachi 3:1-7
3 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.
5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.
6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
7 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?
KJV

Isaiah 46:9-11
9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
KJV

Titus 1:1-4
1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;
4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.
KJV

God does not change and has already declared the end from the beginning. NOTHING we do will EVER take God by surprise, and He has already promised us eternal life before the world began! Thus, dispensationalism is wrong; it is an erroneous philosophy. God doesn't change His tactics based on the circumstances. He has ALWAYS dealt with people the same way: through grace, through faith, by blood. Furthermore, God knowing the end from the beginning, in fact, DECLARING the end from the beginning, means that He doesn't see the future like we see it. We see various possibilities and the various decision trees of the possible choices that human beings can make. God sees the ONE branch in the decision tree to which all human beings will contribute by their choices and He has planned for it just as it is. He doesn't need all the "possible choices," because for Him they are NOT possible. Only ONE is the true path that He already knows they will take collectively. It's similar to the "Invisible Hand" concept in macroeconomics.

If you continue to belittle God by believing that He doesn't know what man is going to do next, then you will not be able to fully trust that God as He wants you to trust Him. Oh, and by the way, "belittling" God is, by definition, "blaspheming" God.

 

[Justin Mangonel]

God does not change but the future changes as we make our decisions. God may foresee our mistakes and know that he will change his plan but that does not mean that we are doing what He intended.

God did not make Adam sin. Adam did that himself. It was not God's plan for Adam to sin.

What I said is crystal clear and true.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Justin Mangonel.

God does not change but the future changes as we make our decisions. God may foresee our mistakes and know that he will change his plan but that does not mean that we are doing what He intended.

God did not make Adam sin. Adam did that himself. It was not God's plan for Adam to sin.

What I said is crystal clear and true.

Although God did not make Adam to sin, it WAS IN GOD'S PLAN that he would sin! You need to differentiate between the PLAN of God and the WILL of God. They are NOT the same thing! God doesn't WANT human beings to sin; it is not His WILL - His DESIRE - that they sin. HOWEVER, you need to come to grips with the fact that God doesn't CHANGE His plan when mankind sins! That PLAN was predetermined "before the foundation of the world!" He has worked ALL of our sins through His foreknowledge into His PLAN!

"Has it ever occurred to you that nothing has occurred to God?"

Sometimes, people talk about the Will of God as though it was His Plan. They will ask God, "Who do you want me to marry?" or "Where should I live?" or "What should I do for an occupation?" And, God will say, "Well, who do you WANT to marry? Where do you WANT to live? What do you WANT to do?" God has PUT IT IN OUR HEARTS to know and desire things that are good for us. All God asks of us is that, in whatever choices we make, we do RIGHTEOUSNESS! THAT is His WILL! THAT'S what we can control! We can control our choices to make sure that they are loving choices, loving to God and loving to others, so that our decisions will be RIGHT choices. However, "a man devises his way, but the LORD directs his steps." We can make all the plans in the world, but we have no guarantee that our plans will come to fruition. One simple accident (which is not an unknown factor to God) can totally mess up our plans! All we can control is that WHEN we make choices and plans that we do so with a conscious effort to be righteous in our decisions, and rely on God to control the outcome.

Have you ever noticed that most of the time the Scriptures do not talk about "KNOWING the Will of God," but rather "DOING the Will of God," as though it was already known? God tells us what is right and wrong; that's His Will. He WANTS - WILLS - us to do what is right!

However, God NEVER tells us what is His Plan, except to give us glimpses into the future through prophecy. That's all HIS business! And, He NEVER promises to share the future with us! We just need to trust Him to do for us what is best. We can trust Him if we know that He loves us and wants the best for us.

I hear this most of the time in the context of dating, but someone will ask, "How do I know if this person is God's will for my life?" WRONG QUESTION! Actually the person is asking, "How do I know if this is the person God's plan has in it for my life?" God doesn't give us that information! However, God puts it in the heart of a person to be so comfortable with the other person, so "at home" with the other person, that it is a virtual certainty when everything clicks. They both just need to do what is RIGHT in their relationship! God doesn't condone fornication or adultery. Avoid these twisted views on the concept of marriage, and all's good!

So, whomever a person decides to marry, wherever he chooses to live, and whatever he chooses to do for an occupation is FINE WITH GOD! He wants us to choose the choices that will MAKE US HAPPY! All He asks (demands) is that we live righteously in the choices we make!

For instance, it is WRONG - DEAD WRONG - for a person to think after he/she has married someone that he/she has "missed God's Perfect Will" in whom God wanted him or her to marry! I've heard of people coming to this conclusion, divorcing his wife/her husband, and marrying "Miss Right/Mr. Right." That is simply NOT WHAT GOD WANTS!!! THAT is adultery!

Can you understand this? If you're a teacher, it is SO necessary for you to know this!

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Hi Retro,

I absolutly believe that God speaks to us today if we will listen. I think it is not correct to think that God has just given us a set of priciples and expects us to make the best choices possible.

I believe we should live by revelation. And what is revealed to us is His will for us in any particular circumstance. Marriage is one of these very critical junctures in our lives and it is imperitive for us to know His will and to follow it in this choice.

You are preaching living by the knowledge of good. This kills just as surely as the knowledge of evil. God never meant for us to live by either one.

A great number of Christians are married to spouses whom God was never consulted about. Is God bound to bless that which He had no hand in chosing? No...plain and simple. This is a very hard truth but it is the way things actually are.

 

[John_8:32]

Shalom, Justin Mangonel.



So you're saying that God revises His plan, CHANGES His plan, depending on the moment?

Malachi 3:1-7
3 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.
5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.
6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
7 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?
KJV

Isaiah 46:9-11
9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
KJV

Titus 1:1-4
1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;
4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.
KJV

God does not change and has already declared the end from the beginning. NOTHING we do will EVER take God by surprise, and He has already promised us eternal life before the world began! Thus, dispensationalism is wrong; it is an erroneous philosophy. God doesn't change His tactics based on the circumstances. He has ALWAYS dealt with people the same way: through grace, through faith, by blood. Furthermore, God knowing the end from the beginning, in fact, DECLARING the end from the beginning, means that He doesn't see the future like we see it. We see various possibilities and the various decision trees of the possible choices that human beings can make. God sees the ONE branch in the decision tree to which all human beings will contribute by their choices and He has planned for it just as it is. He doesn't need all the "possible choices," because for Him they are NOT possible. Only ONE is the true path that He already knows they will take collectively. It's similar to the "Invisible Hand" concept in macroeconomics.

If you continue to belittle God by believing that He doesn't know what man is going to do next, then you will not be able to fully trust that God as He wants you to trust Him. Oh, and by the way, "belittling" God is, by definition, "blaspheming" God.

You missed one...

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

 

[Justin Mangonel]

yes God does not change. Speaking to who he is. However, what about the flood? Did not God feel badly that he had made man? Did God foreordain that everyone on earth should die except those in the ark or did someone really mess up His plan and he had to start over again with 8 souls and a bunch of animals. I don't really understand the fundamental reason that this is not clear to you. It seems very clear to me. God even said to Moses to let Him alone and he would destroy Israel and raise up a greater nation through Moses. Clear God changes his mind depending upon the actions of those He is dealing with. I think you are mixing up what it means to be the same.

 

[martinlawrencescott]

I would also separate God's knowledge from his will and plan when talking about this. He can know exactly what is going to happen and change his course accordingly, knowing full well when the course needs to be changed, based on the susceptibility of man to sin. I've thought about whether or not the foreknowledge of something bad happening would change the impact of when it actually happened. On even a human level, such as the prophets (knowing something bad will happen, and then it does), it doesn't seem to change the emotional impact, and it might be even greater. I would kinda agree with both sides here and say God's foreknowledge and plan work together harmoniously and very vulnerably, even so perfectly. The fact that it works at all when we and sin are in the equation is a glorification of God's loving sovereignty in His knowledge and in His plan. So I would conclude that all of these changes and delays, even ones we still expect prophetically, are foreknown (I mean, just the fact that a delay would be prophesied in the first place), and a part of God's plan to place the free will of man above His own will. God can want two completely different things at the same time, on separate levels, just like we can, meaning, He would never as a loving father want His son to die, but wants the best for all creation, including His son, so the loving part of His nature will win out over His wrath. Both are part of His character, but love is the one He is most adamant about, and is why we know he is holy, because he has never failed or compromised His love for all eternity.

 

[John_8:32]

yes God does not change. Speaking to who he is. However, what about the flood? Did not God feel badly that he had made man? Did God foreordain that everyone on earth should die except those in the ark or did someone really mess up His plan and he had to start over again with 8 souls and a bunch of animals. I don't really understand the fundamental reason that this is not clear to you. It seems very clear to me. God even said to Moses to let Him alone and he would destroy Israel and raise up a greater nation through Moses. Clear God changes his mind depending upon the actions of those He is dealing with. I think you are mixing up what it means to be the same.

And do you suppose that God did not foresee this coming? Caught Him off guard? Pretty sure that the God who...

Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

was not surprised by mere mortal man and had to react with a stopgap fix.

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Why did God say to Abraham that now He knew? If God knows the future perfectly was there ever any doubt?

 

[martinlawrencescott]

It's one thing to know knowledge and another to experience it, that's one thing you would agree with. I may know my wife to the best of my ability, but I haven't really "known" her, in a biblical context, until we've had sex. I'm not sure if I'm kidding or not on that point, it actually sounds true. I think the knowledge God is talking about is based on intimacy and experience. God says to some people according to the word, "I never knew you." How can this be true? However, if you take into consideration that there is not a point of relation this person has to the Father, then it makes sense. "I have no point of connection in order to relate to this person." God has given us the point of connection as Jesus or for the OT folks it would be the promise thereof and always by faith. You can also argue that God doesn't know evil by this standard, so someone may be the epitome of separation from God in his/her disobedience and rejection of God in knowledge; this is concerning our conversation about the tree of knowledge of good and evil in another thread.

My conclusion is it is possible to know about something but to never experience it, and these encompass two very different types of knowledge. God is good and not evil, so he can know about evil in concept, but he can't really "know" evil.

 

[DoUPray2]

Yes, God does revise His plan quite often because of our disobedience. The Flood was a major one.

Actually, I think we make up our mind but when something new is revealed: we are the ones to revise! God is the same yesterday, today and forever!

You may not agree, that is just my humble opinion! It's ok to disagree!

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Hi all,

It is a bit difficult to wrap our finite minds around an infinite God. Foreknowledge is one of those difficult areas to deal with because we cannot actually experience it other than through the Holy Spirit.

I interpret the Bible very literally in almost every case unless there is clear reason not to do so. I reason that if God meant a literal virgin would birth the Messiah then it follows that most things He said are literal even if we cannot imagine yet how that can be. Many times, people go off into metaphysical interpretations of the scriptures simply because they cannot imagine how something can be literally true and I think this is another area where people tend to get into error.

Case in point is how people seem to make all manor of assumptions about the New Heavens and New Earth that have nothing to do with them being "New." If one simply lets the words mean what they really mean then of course this creation is burnt up and a completely new creation is set in its place.

One would think that, on this point at least, there would be no confusion but still many argue about the obvious. Why is that so? Why do people not see what is fundamentally clear in scripture? There are many reasons but one of the biggest is dogma. People believe things that are not true already and when they come to a clear scripture that seems to say something different it must be made to align with their doctrine. I suggest that Instead of gerrymandering scriptures which do not fit a certain viewpoint we should realize that it is our theology that is in error rather than the plain word in front of us.