Bibliolatry: Worship/knowledge of the book MORE than the author

[MA2444]

But for some reason this teaching of Freud stuck with me over the last 4 decades lol.

I believe God plants little seeds of truth everywhere,

I believe that's the most restrained agreement with Freud that I ever heard, lol! I think he was full of crap on a lot of things that he said too, but not everything. Too much cocaine fried his brain, lol. The cocaine incident is what he called it. We cal it addiction nowadays, drug addict.

ANyway, yes I know that scripture says the heart is wicked and deceiful, but isnt that for one damaged by sin or iniquity? We have to be transformed by the renewing of our mind through the washing of the water of the word. Now that's not like a infant sprinkle baptism, we're talking hold him under until he repents type fervor, lol.

There's all sort of scriptures which talk about the imagination as a good thing.

Joshua 1:8
8 This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success..../KJV

Isaiah 26:3
3 Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee.../KJV

I bolded meditate and mind because they translate from the same word, imagination. I thought that was interesting. There's more places too and imagination can certainly be evil. Like we see in Genesis 6:5

5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.../KJV

If you indulge into sinful things then your heart and imagination will turn very evil.
If you think about evil things but dont do it, you are not innocent because you have been planting the seeeds of the evil within your heart.

So everyone should give their brain a break from negative input. and focus your imagination upon the words of God. In fact, apparently imagination is directly linked to hope and faith.

I found a scripture that backs that up.

Romans 1 :21
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.../KJV

So when you are vain and want to think about what you want to think about and not what the Lord wants you to think about, then you have been foolish and your heart is darkened. That makes sense to me.

No wonder we will be judged upon our thoughts. Look at the woman in lust? You're guilty. You used your imagination to see yourself with her and that got into your heart.

 

[MA2444]

I wonder if our imagination is one of our spiritual senses? Take Leonardo DaVinchi for instance, All of his old drawings of inventions. He saw them in his mind and put it on paper.
Patent Pending, lol.

Ok so what happened when the man wants to build a chair for instance. You cant just build a new idea that you havent thought about yet. So he sits quietly and thinks about it. (speculation!), he gets up in spirit and goes to the spiritual realm, receives the picture of the chair and then returns draws it, and builds it. ...??

What encourages hope? I've seen it! I didnt know why I had to sit on the floor before but I had an idea to build a chair platform to sit on and now I can build it because I have seen it.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for. and it is our imagination that makes it manifest in this realm. God is always giving people visions and pictures in an attempt to empower them to do His wil.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I dont understand why you called it a bird anemometer then. I used to use anemometers in my work so am pretty familiar with them. WHat's different about yours? That you added a compass to it for direction?

You dont have to answer if it would release previously unreleased info though. You just have piqued my curiosity thats all.

It is a unique design and we have yet to get patents in place. It has no bearings to wear out and will be way less expensive than the ultrasonics that are currently the option of choice to replace cup and vane. Our Met service in NZ are replacing all cup and Vane's because the bearings fatigue early on and last only two years in our environment. They have been replacing bearings annually. We have one slow movement that captures both speed and direction.

 

[Carl Emerson]

So I see God's vengence the way Solomon and Jesus described it.

Pro 25:21
If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink:
Pro 25:22
For thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head, and the LORD shall reward thee.

Mat 5:43
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46
For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47
And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Luk 10:19
Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

The power of Love, the power to Do Good, and the power of Prayer.
These are the weapons of vengence we are given, but the power of those weapons comes from God. He will repay.

And it is very enticing when the world throws obstacles in your way for you to want to take up your own weapons and fight fire with fire.
But as Jesus told the sons of thunder, ye know not what spirit ye are of.
And I'm working to get to know better which side I'm on.

When the children in the wilderness were whining because they was hungry and was tempting God,
God didn't withold food or water from them. He gave them meat until it killed them.
Psa 78:25
Man did eat angels' food: he sent them meat to the full.
Psa 78:26
He caused an east wind to blow in the heaven: and by his power he brought in the south wind.
Psa 78:27
He rained flesh also upon them as dust, and feathered fowls like as the sand of the sea:
Psa 78:28
And he let it fall in the midst of their camp, round about their habitations.
Psa 78:29
So they did eat, and were well filled: for he gave them their own desire;
Psa 78:30
They were not estranged from their lust. But while their meat was yet in their mouths,
Psa 78:31
The wrath of God came upon them, and slew the fattest of them, and smote down the chosen men of Israel.
Psa 78:32
For all this they sinned still, and believed not for his wondrous works.
Psa 78:33
Therefore their days did he consume in vanity, and their years in trouble.

I think I figured out what this Angel's food was that God fed them.

Psa 74:14
Thou brakest the heads of leviathan in pieces, and gavest him to be meat to the people inhabiting the wilderness.

God gave them what they desired, what their lust desired.
And the manna they recieved from God, is not the manna we recieve from Jesus.
Theirs couldn't keep them from death, Jesus' gives us life.

Is God vengeful? I think he gives people exactly what they desire and deserve.
Is this vengence?
Maybe..

First God gave them mercy and peace and when they were not satisfied he gave them oppression and war.
Not because he chose it for them, but because they chose it for themselves.

That's how I see it.
Hugs

Yes, I think the dialogue between Lot and the angels is most revealing in this regard - the Lord's compassion for the innocent when judgement is about to fall is immense. At the same time it is a serious matter to obey at such times otherwise as Lot's wife found out the consequences can be immediate and fatal. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. In all of this His judgements are without question.

 

[St. SteVen]

It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. In all of this His judgements are without question.

This why I claim that all you folks view God as a tyrant.
Though you won't admit it.

It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of a tyrant.
A tyrant's judgements are not to be questioned.

And then you turn around and claim that it is I who calls God a tyrant.

/ cc: @Aunty Jane @Hillsage

 

[Carl Emerson]

This why I claim that all you folks view God as a tyrant.
Though you won't admit it.

It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of a tyrant.
A tyrant's judgements are not to be questioned.

And then you turn around and claim that it is I who calls God a tyrant.

/ cc: @Aunty Jane @Hillsage

Consider Isaiah's response to encountering the Holiness of God... and the Lord's response....

The God of The Bible is not to be messed with unless you want to snip quite a lot of pages out first...

I assume you have not had a first hand encounter, like Isaiah, with His Holy Presence that leaves you speechless for hours ???

=========================================================================

Isaiah 6

Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying: “Whom shall I send? Who will go for Us?”

And I said:

“Here am I. Send me!”

9And He replied: “Go and tell this people, ‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’

10Make the hearts of this people calloused; deafen their ears and close their eyes.

Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed.”

11Then I asked:

“How long, O Lord?”

And He replied “Until the cities lie ruined and without inhabitant, until the houses are left unoccupied

and the land is desolate and ravaged, 12until the LORD has driven men far away and the land is utterly forsaken...

 

[St. SteVen]

The God of The Bible is not to be messed with unless you want to snip quite a lot of pages out first...

What a curious sentence.
Seems to have started in one direction and ended in another.
"The God of The Bible is not to be messed with unless you want ______________________ . " (fill in the blank) ???
(fill in the blank) ________________________ "... to snip quite a lot of pages out first..." ????

Not sure what to make of it. ???
Perhaps "messed with" was a poor choice of words?
Definitely supports the idea of God being a tyrant.
Was that your intent?

I assume you have not had a first hand encounter with His Holy Presence that leaves you speechless for hours ???

Not in so many words. But I am familiar with His presence. Quite pleasant in my experience.
Sorry to hear that you had a bad experience with God. That seems to have had a long-term negative affect on you.
Fearful of our loving heavenly Father. (viewed as a tyrant)

/

 

[Hillsage]

Consider Isaiah's response to encountering the Holiness of God... and the Lord's response....

The God of The Bible is not to be messed with unless you want to snip quite a lot of pages out first...

I assume you have not had a first hand encounter, like Isaiah, with His Holy Presence that leaves you speechless for hours ???

=========================================================================

Isaiah 6

Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying: “Whom shall I send? Who will go for Us?”

And I said:

“Here am I. Send me!”

9And He replied: “Go and tell this people, ‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’

10Make the hearts of this people calloused; deafen their ears and close their eyes.

Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed.”

11Then I asked:

“How long, O Lord?”

And He replied “Until the cities lie ruined and without inhabitant, until the houses are left unoccupied

and the land is desolate and ravaged, 12until the LORD has driven men far away and the land is utterly forsaken...

Did you not know 'Ultimate Reonciliation' of ALL, was how Steven and I both believed. If not, then now you know why Steven and I got the 'left foot' of dis-fellowship at the old CF. This doctrine of the Plan of God for the ages, is indeed a hard one for most to come to a true knowledge of IMO. I studied it for 10 years just hoping it was true. But when I truly felt it was, I never have denied it since.

 

[St. SteVen]

But when I truly felt it was, I never have denied it since.

Better to believe in UR and be wrong, than not to and be right.

/

 

[Carl Emerson]

Hi guys,

I am very surprised that happened, I have enjoyed respectful dialogue with you Steve, and had no Idea you both got the chop fo the same reason. There are far more destructive theologies being tolerated I would have thought - I dont consider a theology salvific unless it indicates a worship of a false God.

Here's my honest response - I wonder if our preception of God can be born out of our own experiences with our fathers in real life. This can leave lasting wounds that distort our understanding of the character of God. I remember on my journey out of darkness having to deal with the confusion between God and my own father.

Steve - you seem to have a 'Peter' personality like a dog with a bone running with it full tilt. Jesus loved Peter dearly and I feel the same way.

My journey back to faith has been radical and intense and I have experienced both the kindness and severity of God for my own good. I consider the fear of God my most important and close friend which keeps me from ever slipping back.

I turned 78 two days ago and these days are blessed with His loving presence and He works with me confirming His Word with His loving work in lives.

I have has several direct encounters with Him that I treasure, all have been critical in keeping me on track, without His kind rebuke and encouragement I would likely not be alive.

Interesting I can safely share this here with you much easier than on CF !!!

However, I am called to the fray, to be a voice after waiting in relative silence for 40 years, it is time to fearlessly speak out.

 

[Aunty Jane]

This why I claim that all you folks view God as a tyrant.
Though you won't admit it.

A tyrant is one who extends no mercy to anyone….we can’t put God in that category unless we ignore a lot of the mercy he extended to many of his erring servants, as David (a serious sinner) said…”He remembers we are dust”…..he knows that sin is inherent in us because of the actions of a man at the beginning of our history.
I see Yahweh as a benevolent dictator…our Supreme Sovereign and Creator, who had a purpose to our creation which was inextricably tied to the creation itself.

Why are we here? is answered in Genesis. The purpose in our species alone being created “in the image” of our Maker, with all his qualities and sense of morality, were designed to be the ultimate caretakers of his property. He gave the humans all they would need to fulfill their role here In a very generous and caring way.

If we understand the relationship that was originally enjoyed by Adam when he was alone with his God at the beginning, given the privilege of naming all the creatures he would be given dominion over, we will see that it was a role with big rewards. IOW, humans were to represent their Creator here as those who would look after everything and keep it as beautiful as God himself would. By doing so the humans would get to enjoy creation forever without a knowledge of evil ever entering their lives…..can we imagine for a moment what that would have resulted in, if the rebel satan had not decided to serve himself and derail the course of human history for his own selfish purpose? Everlasting life in paradise on earth was their eternal future, but dependent solely on their obedience to just one simple command, that caused them no hardship whatsoever.

The whole purpose of our being was destroyed and God’s rightful Sovereignty was challenged by one disobedient angel. He used his beguiling ways to tempt the woman to disobey her God by offering her something that sounded better….to use her free will to disobey her Sovereign because there was a reward. Her influence then on her husband tempted him to disobey his Sovereign as well, but for a completely different reason. The fate of the human race was not determined by the actions of the woman but by the actions of the man…..why? Because she was deceived, but Adam wasn’t. He knew what God’s command meant, and he knew the penalty, but he did not want to lose her, so he sided with his wife and both were evicted from their paradise home to eke out an existence on cursed ground. What a dramatic and life altering lesson they had to learn, and to have their children raised in these less than perfect circumstances.

Their benevolent God punished them for their disobedience by allowing the humans to reproduce and to see for themselves where such disobedience leads. We have been living in this world of the devil’s making for a reason.

Why did God not just destroy the rebels there and then? Because satan did not challenge God’s power…he challenged his Sovereignty…his right to make the rules and to set the limits of their free will. All the rebels had abused their free will and our Creator could have snuffed them out of existence in a heartbeat, but issues were raised that were not answered unless man was permitted to test out the rightfulness of God’s Sovereign will over his own creation. Free will is a precious gift that we so often take for granted, but in order to retain it as such, God had to show all his children, both in heaven and on earth, what results when we abuse it.

It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of a tyrant.
A tyrant's judgements are not to be questioned.

A dictator’s judgments cannot be questioned because his will is paramount….what he says is all that matters. Human dictators have given that title a bad meaning, abusing their power over others to benefit themselves. Power corrupts humans, which is why we were never given power over each other. We had one Sovereign whom all were to obey because he was NOT a tyrant, but a very loving and generously giving God and King.

All he ever asked of his children was their obedience because they could depend on him NOT to be corrupt. He is immortal and incorruptible, but those who take issue with the way he exercised his Sovereignty, demonstrate that they do not know him at all…but rather desire to transform him into their version of what a God should be. Like small children throwing tantrums and yelling “that’s not fair!“…as if the parent must give in to the demands of the child.

You can yell at God all you want, but you will never make him into something of your own design as if you somehow know how to turn him into someone more acceptable to yourselves.

He invented justice, so how could he possibly be unjust in his dealings with his own creation?

And then you turn around and claim that it is I who calls God a tyrant.

That is because you see a need to make God into someone he is not…..he is very forgiving as he has demonstrated so many times in the Bible examples recorded for our benefit. But forgiveness has criteria…it must be motivated by genuine repentance…..look at Manasseh to see the scope of God’s forgiveness. He is not fooled by crocodile tears so the repentance demonstrated by this man was genuine and from his heart. God allowed him to be brought to his knees before he came to his senses.
Dont we see this also in the parable of the prodigal son…..his father gave him what he requested and let him go….and there is nothing in the parable to suggest that the father pleaded with his son not to go….or that he ever tried to go and convince him to come home…..there was no wisdom in that, because the father knew that difficult life lessons are the ones that teach us with the best results.

Only when the son had squandered his whole inheritance on his so called friends and was destitute, herding swine and envying them their food, that he realized how well off he had been in his father’s house…he would go back but with no expectations as to the reception he would get. He would ask to be a hired servant, not being worthy of being called the father’s son anymore…..but what was the outcome? The father saw his downcast son from afar and ran to meet him, crying tears of joy at his return. This is the God you want to see whilst ignoring the God who is a disciplinarian and an upholder of true justice….but always tempered with mercy when it was merited.

If you have no faith in God’s justice and in the exercise of his own Sovereignty, then you have no place in his kingdom.….it’s really that simple. God is chosing citizens for his earth who will just do as he asks without hesitation like the faithful servants of God did in the Bible record.

Why was Abraham such a prominent character in the Bible? Because he always did what God asked him to do without hesitation…like offering his son as a sacrifice….the hardest thing any parent could ever be asked to do, but his faith and trust in his God was that strong. He was prevented from carrying out the request, but his willingness, and the willingness of the son to become the sacrifice, provided strong testimony about the willingness of God to sacrifice his precious only son who offered himself for the benefit of mankind.

I just wish you knew the God that I know…..it is important to take him as he is, because he will not change for anyone….I believe it is your viewpoint that needs to be adjusted to see that justice is a strong quality in our Creator, but sometimes our own distorted view, is impaired by sentiment. Yahweh is very caring, but he is not sentimental in his administration of justice. Compassion and mercy have to be tempered by justice and vice versa.
Because God is perfect and we are not, it is we who need to change our viewpoint by accepting ALL that the Bible says within the knowledge we have about his dealings with humans, as well as his angels, who feature in this object lesson more than we realize. They are the reason why this lesson has lasted so long from the human standpoint.

 

[St. SteVen]

I am very surprised that happened, I have enjoyed respectful dialogue with you Steve, and had no Idea you both got the chop fo the same reason. There are far more destructive theologies being tolerated I would have thought - I dont consider a theology salvific unless it indicates a worship of a false God.

Yes. It was a very ugly day for me.
I went to check my forum messages and was met with a message that said I wasn't allowed on the forum for reason of blasphemy.

Oops! We ran into some problems.​

You have been banned for the following reason: Repeatedly criticizing mainline Christian belief in hell in a blasphemous way.

Here's my honest response - I wonder if our preception of God can be born out of our own experiences with our fathers in real life. This can leave lasting wounds that distort our understanding of the character of God. I remember on my journey out of darkness having to deal with the confusion between God and my own father.

Absolutely.
Oftentimes if you ask someone to describe God, they will frame him like their father image.

Steve - you seem to have a 'Peter' personality like a dog with a bone running with it full tilt. Jesus loved Peter dearly and I feel the same way.

Thank you.

My journey back to faith has been radical and intense and I have experienced both the kindness and severity of God for my own good. I consider the fear of God my most important and close friend which keeps me from ever slipping back.

That is yours, I would not want to diminish it a bit. God knows what you needed.

Interesting I can safely share this here with you much easier than on CF !!!

Yes, this is a much better situation currently.

I have has several direct encounters with Him that I treasure, all have been critical in keeping me on track, without His kind rebuke and encouragement I would likely not be alive.

Agree.

However, I am called to the fray, to be a voice after waiting in relative silence for 40 years, it is time to fearlessly speak out.

And you should. You have my blessing, whether I agree or not.

/

 

[Hillsage]

Hi guys,

I am very surprised that happened, I have enjoyed respectful dialogue with you Steve, and had no Idea you both got the chop fo the same reason. There are far more destructive theologies being tolerated I would have thought - I dont consider a theology salvific unless it indicates a worship of a false God.

Unpack that a bit. What do you think falls under the "false God" category?

Here's my honest response - I wonder if our preception of God can be born out of our own experiences with our fathers in real life. This can leave lasting wounds that distort our understanding of the character of God. I remember on my journey out of darkness having to deal with the confusion between God and my own father.

I agree with Steven and many others I've heard over the years. Father hurts and church hurts are the two biggest things I've heard in my 50 years. I was at a conference in Denver one time when the speaker asked how many in the audience NEVER heard their father say "I love you". It was amazing how many hands went up....with mine.

My journey back to faith has been radical and intense and I have experienced both the kindness and severity of God for my own good. I consider the fear of God my most important and close friend which keeps me from ever slipping back.

Growing up I feared the God of ETERNAL HELL...when I was indoctrinated to believe that way from the church (RC).
Now I just fear His punishments which are intended to make us better. Same way I feared the punishments of my parents.

HEB 12:6 For the Lord disciplines him whom he loves, and chastises/scourges every son whom he receives."

But there is no punishMENT in ETERNAL HELL, because there is only eternal PUNISHING. And that is simply worse than Hitler with an eternal Auschwitz IMO. Sin and death are never destroyed with eternal hell. If hell is true, I can't imagine those screaming tortured souls yelling "PRAISE GOD" "BLESS YOU LORD".....can you? I hear only eternal expletives. OK I'll stop.

I turned 78 two days ago and these days are blessed with His loving presence and He works with me confirming His Word with His loving work in lives.

I have has several direct encounters with Him that I treasure, all have been critical in keeping me on track, without His kind rebuke and encouragement I would likely not be alive.

Interesting I can safely share this here with you much easier than on CF !!!

However, I am called to the fray, to be a voice after waiting in relative silence for 40 years, it is time to fearlessly speak out.

2 years ago I went through a very 'dark night of the soul' time. My wife said she had never seen me cry so much in that 2 week test in the wilderness. And yes, what a blessing it was to come to the place of resting and knowing that 'ME plus HE was a MAJORITY'.....as I faced those from whom I feared another 'church hurt'.

I once had a patient>friend>brother from the AofG church in town. I went to visit him at home when he was about to die of colon cancer. I asked him how he was doing? He said it is a fearful thing when you are in the valley of the shadow of death...and it is so dark...you can't SEE the ROCK of your salvation. But I kept groping until I felt HIM, and I am at peace. The sign over his hospital door said;
"Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him." JOB 13:15

 

[Carl Emerson]

What a curious sentence.
Seems to have started in one direction and ended in another.
"The God of The Bible is not to be messed with unless you want ______________________ . " (fill in the blank) ???
(fill in the blank) ________________________ "... to snip quite a lot of pages out first..." ????

Not sure what to make of it. ???
Perhaps "messed with" was a poor choice of words?
Definitely supports the idea of God being a tyrant.
Was that your intent?

Simply that The Holiness of God judging the wicked is a theme repeated over and over in the Bible. So there would be a lot of pages to snip out before one was justified in viewing only the Kindness of God without the Severity.

Attributing malice to God is rather risky, recognising the Severity of God without malice is appropriate.

If you are unable to separate Severity from malice, I suggest this could be because you were personally abused.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Unpack that a bit. What do you think falls under the "false God" category?

Syncretism - trying to merge the deities with Jehovah.

Presenting a false Christ who is not a judge.

Claiming that the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob is the god of Islam.

Elevating a false prophetic voice as authentic and peddling the false teaching as if from God.

Promoting 'New age' mysticism that assumes all mankind are basically good and not in need of salvation through the Cross.

There is a few that come to mind.

Mind you I don't make the rules on CF.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Growing up I feared the God of ETERNAL HELL...when I was indoctrinated to believe that way from the church (RC).
Now I just fear His punishments which are intended to make us better. Same way I feared the punishments of my parents.

Do you see any Biblical support for a belief in Hell at all ?

 

[St. SteVen]

If you are unable to separate Severity from malice, I suggest this could be because you were personally abused.

I didn't suffer from physical abuse. There was some mild emotional abuse from home and church.

I had to face the hell doctrine in more recent history when a sister-in-law declared to her Mom
that she couldn't believe in a God that sent people to hell. Mom was beside herself.

I knew all the standard apologetics. But they left me flat. Not satisfying in the least.

To make a long story short, this led to investigation on the subject.
Which led to other available church doctrines, Universalism being a part
of the early church in the east. (Orthodox)
And a much more satisfying answer to the question for me.
That the God who requires us to love our enemies will also love his own.

I foresee an absolute triumph of grace. Every tribe, tongue, and nation.
Which doesn't mean a FREE pass to heaven. Everyone will answer.

/

 

[St. SteVen]

What do you think? (forum topic link below)

Skepticism versus gullibility

Just heard a sermon that came down pretty hard on skepticism.
Trying to process how I feel about that. Thanks for listening. (send help)

It appears that there is no room for healthy skepticism in the church.
But for some reason the skeptics weren't called gullible. No one was, actually.
We are offered apologetics to counteract skepticism. (unbelief)

I was raised evangelical Protestant.
I remember my state of shock when I found out where the Bible actually came from.
Not what the church told me.

I had never heard of the canon of scripture.
I thought a cannon was a war relic, not a religious relic. - Ha!

Same with the hell doctrine.
No one informed me that there were three biblical doctrines of the final judgment.
They did bad-mouth Universalism though.

I had no idea that Universalism was actually a Christian doctrine from the early church in the East.
Which is where the church came from, hello?

And what about inerrancy? Don't get me started... Grr...
Anyone else want to rant on either aspect? Thanks.

/

 

[Hillsage]

Syncretism - trying to merge the deities with Jehovah.

Can you give an example specifically? I mean like a particular denomination or organization you consider a cult? I'm still vague in your application of that definition.

Presenting a false Christ who is not a judge.

Again, I'm not sure who would fall under that category, in your opinion.

Claiming that the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob is the god of Islam.

Since Abraham, Issac and Jacob, never knew God by 'the name' of Jehovah, I'm not sure of what to even do with this one.

EXO 6:2 And God/ELOHIM said to Moses, "I am the LORD/JEHOVAH. 3 I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as God Almighty/EL SHADDAI, but by my name the LORD/JEHOVAH I did not make myself known to them.

How does this verse figure in to where you are coming from?

Elevating a false prophetic voice as authentic and peddling the false teaching as if from God.

That pretty much ends up a 'personal opinion' in my book.

Promoting 'New age' mysticism that assumes all mankind are basically good and not in need of salvation through the Cross.

There is a few that come to mind.

I would like to hear your take on this verse. I've thought a lot about it over the years.

ROM 2:14 When Gentiles who have not the law do by NATURE what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

Wouldn't the 'sin nature' be the only "nature" one has? Or do we have 2 natures we're born with? One of our spirit, and one from our "sinful flesh" which we inherited from Adam.

Mind you I don't make the rules on CF.

I know, and we got along fine. Because we knew the other was a brother....but just from a different mother....in the flesh. But we believed that the same spirit of Christ dwelled in us both of us.

But 'the letter of the law' that kills, was in the hands of those with the guns on CF. I was accused of not being a Christian just because I asked some scriptural questions concerning the God. My questions were scriptures which did not line up with dogma of the NICENE CREED. Boom, I was guilty of an infraction I wasn't even aware of....because I didn't study the laws of the forum. But they didn't care. I appealed, I protested for several weeks, but all to no avail. They required a confession of faith that 'before God' I could not give.

 

[Hillsage]

Do you see any Biblical support for a belief in Hell at all ?

Like we've shared before, that single word HELL is translated from 3 different Greek words.
Do I believe in "gehenna/HELL". It was a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem. And 'today' 2,000 years later....it's a housing subdivision in a much bigger Jerusalem.
Do I believe in "hades/HELL"? Which is 'the grave'....and to this day in New England when it is time to "HELL THE POTATOES", it simply means to dig a hole "pit" and cover them with dirt.
Do I believe in "tataroo/HELL"? Which is the bible ONE TIME and it a place where angels are UNTIL the JUDGMENT DAY.

2PE 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of nether gloom to be kept UNTIL THE JUDGMENT;

Then read the definition BY MAN of this word; 5020 tartaroo: to incarcerate in eternal torment.

So, they are incarcerated in eternal torment...awaiting WHAT JUDGMENT???? STRONG'S isn't the word of God definition from the mouth of God. It is man's attempt to best translated/interpret what they 'think' a word should mean.

As for the word HELL in itself. I always tell people to "Google; When was the word hell invented."

This is what always pops up, just like it did now;

725 AD
Hell, Hades, Tartarus, Gehinnom. The word 'Hell' is derived from an Anglo-Saxon word hellia (derived from the Old English, Old Norse, Old High German, hel, helle, circa. 725 AD) that is used in the King James version of the Bible to capture the Jewish concept of 'Gehanna' as the final destination of the wicked.

I don't care if anyone disagrees with me...or Steven, or others. But I do wish they'd at least see that we truly do have good reasons..IMO... to believe how we do.

Short answer to your question Carl is this. Yes I believe there is punishment for the temporal consequence for sin. But Jesus paid the atoning price for the sins of the whole world when He died on the cross. But that death was for the 'truly' ETERNAL consequence for sin. Not the temporal consequence. That's why CHRISTIANS having been DYING and going to HADES right along with heathen.