Bibliolatry: Worship/knowledge of the book MORE than the author

[St. SteVen]

I am new to the site. I read the bible with friends on Skype.

Welcome to the forum!
Thanks for making your first post on one of my many topics.
Shows character. - LOL

/

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

I am new to the site. I read the bible with friends on Skype.

Welcome,

Reading the bible with friends is great.

Please dont let the disagreements on here chase you away.

We are all one big happy family with our own ideas and like in any family squabbles
pop up.

Blessings

 

[Hillsage]

This seems to conflate the Bible as the Word of God with Jesus as the Logos. John is talking about Jesus as the Logos - both a Greek concept and to some extent an OT one (Sophia being the OT personfication of God's Wisdom). When John says the Word became flesh, he is talking about God's Logos (in Trinitarian terms, the Second Person of the Trinity). So I think you're mixing apples and oranges.

I'm real curious as to whether you and I are tracking the same, which is a real surprise if we are.

JOH 4:24 God is spirit,
Luke 24:39 "a spirit has not FLESH AND BLOOD"

I think that the creational WORD was God which was spirit.

The Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit were "spirit". And the Word/God/spirit 'gave up equality with God as a spirit', when He "became the flesh and dwelt among us" as the body of Jesus. But Jesus also had a holy spirit called 'the spirit of Christ' which dwelled in that "word became flesh" body.


PHI 2:6 who, though he WAS in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

But the flesh body of Jesus wasn't just a flesh body. According to scripture it was a body "made like unto his brethren in EVERY RESPECT. And we were born with a 'sin natured flesh/body', and so was Jesus.

ROM 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

So bro. what do you think of..... ...Good night.

 

[O'Darby]

I'm real curious as to whether you and I are tracking the same, which is a real surprise if we are.

JOH 4:24 God is spirit,
Luke 24:39 "a spirit has not FLESH AND BLOOD"

I think that the creational WORD was God which was spirit.

The Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit were "spirit". And the Word/God/spirit 'gave up equality with God as a spirit', when He "became the flesh and dwelt among us" as the body of Jesus. But Jesus also had a holy spirit called 'the spirit of Christ' which dwelled in that "word became flesh" body.


PHI 2:6 who, though he WAS in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

But the flesh body of Jesus wasn't just a flesh body. According to scripture it was a body "made like unto his brethren in EVERY RESPECT. And we were born with a 'sin natured flesh/body', and so was Jesus.

ROM 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

So bro. what do you think of..... ...Good night.

Yours is a slightly different perspective, but along the same lines and I very much like it! The Word as the Second Person of the Trinity would have had all the attributes of God, including omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, etc., but Jesus clearly did not. Hence, we are commonly told that he was "fully God" but somehow "limited" these attributes. What you seem to be saying makes more sense - the incarnated Word (Jesus) was divine and infused with the Christ spirit but not fully God in the same sense as the Word. Is that more or less correct?

Where you would get the most pushback would be that Jesus was in a "sin natured" body, although for Jesus to be "fully human" and to have overcome temptation in a meaningful way this would almost have to be true. If he was "fully human" but insulated against even the human propensity toward sin, it's difficult to see that as "fully human."

Anyway, I appreciate what you are saying and believe we are thinking along the same lines.

(Lest anyone come unglued at this sort of thinking, let me say that even the most fundamentalist understandings of Christianity are full of unsolved mysteries and I find it worthwhile to play around with "how might that have worked?" - certainly more worthwhile than pretending the mysteries don't exist. I'm just thinking out loud, as the saying goes, not trying to promote any new version of Christianity.)

 

[St. SteVen]

(Lest anyone come unglued at this sort of thinking, let me say that even the most fundamentalist understandings of Christianity are full of unsolved mysteries and I find it worthwhile to play around with "how might that have worked?" - certainly more worthwhile than pretending the mysteries don't exist. I'm just thinking out loud, as the saying goes, not trying to promote any new version of Christianity.)

Well said.
I liked your whole post. Thanks.

Related forum topics you might be interested in:

Is the Logos meaningful, or meaningless? - Depends on your view of Logos.

Interesting that the Bible is "the Word of God", unless someone quotes a translation you disagree with.

/

 

[Lizbeth]

I have encountered some that I thought had fallen into this trap.

I asked them, "What would become of your faith if you put your whole library out on the curb on trash day?"
The guilty are left mostly speechless. Or, alternatively VERY angry. How come?

To be clear, I love the Bible and use it every day. But I know the difference between the book and the author.
In my experience, my relationship with the author is much more important than my relationship with the book.
Appropriate scriptures come to my mind all day long. Due to the work of the Spirit to quicken these things to my memory.

The Bible is not omniscient. (all knowing)
The Bible is not omnipresent. (everywhere present)
The Bible is not omnipotent. (all powerful)

The Bible does NOT love me.
It's paper and ink, maybe a leather cover. (or digital info)
That cow didn't die to pay my sin debt.

A true Bibliolator will demand chapter and verse to support my premise. - LOL

The bottom line:
Let's use the Bible to grow closer to God and each other, rather than as a weapon to destroy each other.

John 13:35 NIV
By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

I think the difference in a nutshell is whether we're serving in the old way of the letter or the new way of the Spirit.

 

[Cassandra]

Bibliolatry is my pet peeve in my interaction with the evangelical community. Mine is not a popular position, but I have said that my advice to a new Christian would be to read the Bible three times and forget about it. The gospel message is not that complicated. Walking the walk does not require constant reference to the Bible. I personally do not find large portions of the Bible edifying or instructive in the slightest, and I don't know how many times I am supposed to need to read Romans to "get it." Actual communion, in the sense described by the anonymous medieval author of The Cloud of Unknowing, is far more important to me than reading the Bible for the umpteenth time. Bibliolatry strikes me as part of what I call pretend Christianity - things we think we are supposed to say and do because "that's what Christians do" as opposed to having any reality to them.

I can't believe someone penned this. The Bible even says:
2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Read 3 times?
Jesus even told us to search the Scriptures. But you think 3 times is good?
BTW, there are other books in the Bible besides Romans. The Old Testament is what Jesus used.
I'll bet you there are many people here, who, every time they read the Bible, see something new.

I don't know how you think you can know the Lord's plan by such a cavalier attitude.
Pretend Christianity would be much better defined as someone who thought so little of God, that he threw the Word of God away after reading it 3 times, and pretended he knew everything.

Where is @amigo de christo when ya need him?

 

[amigo de christo]

I think the difference in a nutshell is whether we're serving in the old way of the letter or the new way of the Spirit.

the letter . equals trying to attain righteousness by the acts in the law and not rather by faith .
the Spirit . That by faith in JESUS , by the power of the SPIRIT we can walk pleasing to GOD . righteously and godly .
But as you know many now try and say
that any who reminds us not to do evil , not to trangress , THEY ACCUSE them of serving the letter . WHICH IS NOT TRUE at all .
Or if one uses the law to correct the ungodly , that this too is serving the letter . NO its not .
The law and etc can be used for means of reminding , correcting , just not as a means to ATTAIN TO RIGHTEOUSNESS or be JUSTIFIED .
That means , IS FOUND IN CHRIST ALONE . we are made the righteousness of GOD , we are JUSTIFIED in CHRIST alone .
And if one has the SPIRIT they have the LOVE of GOD planted upon the heart , which would not trangress .

 

[amigo de christo]

I can't believe someone penned this. The Bible even says:
2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Read 3 times?
Jesus even told us to search the Scriptures. But you think 3 times is good?
BTW, there are other books in the Bible besides Romans. The Old Testament is what Jesus used.
I'll bet you there are many people here, who, every time they read the Bible, see something new.

I don't know how you think you can know the Lord's plan by such a cavalier attitude.
Pretend Christianity would be much better defined as someone who thought so little of God, that he threw the Word of God away after reading it 3 times, and pretended he knew everything.

Where is @amigo de christo when ya need him?

TRENCH on sister . trench on . We shall stay glued in the scriptures . the apostels knew , by grace the saints know as well .
Many have come in to usher in deconstruction . They will make it appear to seem as IDOLARTY
to actually love the things GOD did inspire . But all this is , is really a means
to pull people out of the scriptures and rather to sit under men who will lead them astray .

 

[amigo de christo]

the letter . equals trying to attain righteousness by the acts in the law and not rather by faith .
the Spirit . That by faith in JESUS , by the power of the SPIRIT we can walk pleasing to GOD . righteously and godly .
But as you know many now try and say
that any who reminds us not to do evil , not to trangress , THEY ACCUSE them of serving the letter . WHICH IS NOT TRUE at all .
Or if one uses the law to correct the ungodly , that this too is serving the letter . NO its not .
The law and etc can be used for means of reminding , correcting , just not as a means to ATTAIN TO RIGHTEOUSNESS or be JUSTIFIED .
That means , IS FOUND IN CHRIST ALONE . we are made the righteousness of GOD , we are JUSTIFIED in CHRIST alone .
And if one has the SPIRIT they have the LOVE of GOD planted upon the heart , which would not trangress .

 

[Spyder]

It is more difficult to live by scripture than it is to fight by it.

 

[amigo de christo]

It is more difficult to live by scripture than it is to fight by it.

yea rather its impossible to attain to righteousness by the law and not rather BY FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST who fullfilled the law .
However , always remember , GOD sheds HIS LOVE upon our hearts by the SPIRIT
that those whose faith is in CHRIST can indeed walk righteously and do the things pleasing in HIS SIGHT .
FOR IT IS HE who worketh in them the things pleasing IN HIS SIGHT
And sin , well that AINT pleasing in HIS sight . Just a friendly reminder to all .

 

[Cassandra]

Even Jesus, when tempted of the devil, quoted Scripture It is written

Matt 4:11
4 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.
3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.





I would worry about how I felt with respect to spiritual things because

Proverbs 14:12 NKJV​

"There is a way that seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death."

John 5:39 " Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." How can one say one is a Christian if they do not wish to study the Word?

Acts 17:11 11 "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."

 

[Hillsage]

Yours is a slightly different perspective, but along the same lines and I very much like it! The Word as the Second Person of the Trinity would have had all the attributes of God, including omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, etc., but Jesus clearly did not. Hence, we are commonly told that he was "fully God" but somehow "limited" these attributes. What you seem to be saying makes more sense - the incarnated Word (Jesus) was divine and infused with the Christ spirit but not fully God in the same sense as the Word. Is that more or less correct?

Yes, that is definitely "MORE CORRECT" IMO.

Where you would get the most pushback would be that Jesus was in a "sin natured" body, although for Jesus to be "fully human" and to have overcome temptation in a meaningful way this would almost have to be true. If he was "fully human" but insulated against even the human propensity toward sin, it's difficult to see that as "fully human."

Oh yes, push back from several directions. But always one's I back with scripture and biblioliters don't deal with well at all IMO.
You bring up a point. Your point was "overcome temptation".

And here is my scripture

JAM 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted with evil and he himself tempts no one;
If He can be tempted then their belief is contra-biblical.

HEB 4:15 For we have not a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.

Anyway, I appreciate what you are saying and believe we are thinking along the same lines.

(Lest anyone come unglued at this sort of thinking, let me say that even the most fundamentalist understandings of Christianity are full of unsolved mysteries and I find it worthwhile to play around with "how might that have worked?" - certainly more worthwhile than pretending the mysteries don't exist. I'm just thinking out loud, as the saying goes, not trying to promote any new version of Christianity.)

The thinking of one who is capable of "Iron sharpening iron" instead of just banging swords whose only light, would be that of flying sparks.

 

[O'Darby]

I can't believe someone penned this. The Bible even says:
2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Read 3 times?
Jesus even told us to search the Scriptures. But you think 3 times is good?
BTW, there are other books in the Bible besides Romans. The Old Testament is what Jesus used.
I'll bet you there are many people here, who, every time they read the Bible, see something new.

I don't know how you think you can know the Lord's plan by such a cavalier attitude.
Pretend Christianity would be much better defined as someone who thought so little of God, that he threw the Word of God away after reading it 3 times, and pretended he knew everything.

Where is @amigo de christo when ya need him?

Your umbrage is duly noted. Too much caffeine this morning, perhaps?

How many Christians do you think have actually read the entire Bible three times?

The Gospel message and the essentials of the Christian life could easly be reduced to five plain-English typewritten pages. I think the message and those essentials can easily be grasped after reading the Bible three times. After that, GET ON WITH YOUR CHRISTIAN WALK.

That's my point - your Christian walk is far more important to Jesus than whether you slavishly read Genesis and First Thessalonians for the 94th time because that's what Pastor Billy Bob says all good Christians must do.

If someone sincerely believes that reading the Bible daily informs and enhances her Christian walk, go for it! Relative to this thread, my observation is that those most slavishly devoted to the Bible are often less than shining examples of a Christian walk. Beyond question, in my experience and observation the sort of Bibliolatry this thread is talking about typically leads to a "Christian walk" that must leave Jesus, the Holy Spirit and the angelic host in tears.

I was obviously - or so I thought - speaking in hyperbole. But my central point is: the biblical message isn't that hard to grasp, and what we do with that message in our lives is far more important. (You do know, of course, that at the time of Jesus, the great mass of Jews and early Christians didn't read the Scriptures at all because they couldn't read at all and the Scriptures were not widely available in written form at all.)

 

[O'Darby]

It is more difficult to live by scripture than it is to fight by it.

Bingo, Spyder, you are a master of pithiness! :)

 

[MA2444]

I asked them, "What would become of your faith if you put your whole library out on the curb on trash day?"
The guilty are left mostly speechless. Or, alternatively VERY angry. How come?

Number 1, I wouldnt put my library out in the trash. The Gestapo would have to come confiscate it. If that happened, I'd go back in the house after they left and get me out a brand new Bible and start reading it.

I bought a case of bibles and have saturated this house with hidden bibles! Tey cant find them all! Metal detectors wont help them and they'd they'd have to disassemble the walls to get them all, lol.

I got the idea for a "Left Behind, Tribulation Box" and have been collecting old issues of My Daily Bread and other publications, Bibles, a Concordance and a 2TB flash drive that I have downloaded bukoo teaching videos on so they will be there for them!

People are going to mighty interested in God after the rapture. When the grid goes down, the internet will go down. When the internet & grid come back...(Might as well expect it), there aint going to be any God Videos anymore. No Christian Forums, nice knowing you! Nothing like that. And many fence sitters who were left behind are going to suddenly become on fire for the Lord...and have nothing to work with!!

That 2TB flash drive I bought (about $20) I have put prolly 500 videos on and it still has 1.9TB free space left! With this all they need is a comuter with a USB input, internet not required!

Good answer?

 

[GRACE ambassador]

People are going to mighty interested in God after the rapture. When the grid goes down, the internet will go down. When the internet & grid come back...(Might as well expect it), there aint going to be any God Videos anymore. No Christian Forums, nice knowing you! Nothing like that. And many fence sitters who were left behind are going to suddenly become on fire for the Lord...and have nothing to work with!!

Ah, Precious friend, but God Already 'Foresaw' our modern-day technology "going down the tubes"
and so Will Provide Israel and the nations "144,000 sealed tribesmen, two powerful witnesses, and
an angel" to preach the 'Everlasting gospel' to all on the earth. Either they believe and "endure to
the end", Or "take the mark of the beast," eh?

Oh, Wait! Will the "worldwide techno grid come Back Up"?:

"And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their ​

dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to​

be put in graves. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them,​

and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets​

tormented them that dwelt on the earth." (Revelation 11:9-10)​

Amen.

 

[St. SteVen]

Good answer?

Terrible answer.
You have an obvious problem with Bibliolatry.

/

 

[Wynona]

This seems to conflate the Bible as the Word of God with Jesus as the Logos. John is talking about Jesus as the Logos - both a Greek concept and to some extent an OT one (Sophia being the OT personfication of God's Wisdom). When John says the Word became flesh, he is talking about God's Logos (in Trinitarian terms, the Second Person of the Trinity). So I think you're mixing apples and oranges.

What do you say is the difference between Logos and Scripture as the Word of God?