Observations about the law, the Law, God's law, Christ's law - four different things

[Soyeong]

You teach to obey the lawe of sin and death while Christianity was made free from the Mosaic law of sin and death

Paul spoke about multiple categories of law other than the Law of God, such as the law of sin and works of the law, so it is important to correctly discern which law he was referring to. For example, in Romans 7:25-8:2, Paul equated the Law of God with the Law of the Spirit by contrasting them both with the law of sin and death. I have been teaching to obey the Law of God, which is not the law of sin and death, but rather it is your opposition to obeying the Law of God that is teaching to obey the law of sin and death.

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Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law- Galatians 3:13

According to Deuteronomy 27-28, obediently relying on the Law of God is the way to be blessed while lawlessness is the way to be cursed, so Christ redeeming us from the curse of the law is setting us free from lawlessness so that we can be free to enjoy the blessing of the law. In Titus 2:14, it doesn’t say that Jesus gave himself to redeem us from the Mosaic Law, but in order to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify from himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law is the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross while returning to the lawlessness that he gave himself to redeem us from is the way to reject what he accomplished.

the law entangles with the yoke of bondage- Galatians 5:1

If God saved the Israelites out of bondage in Egypt in order to put them under bondage to His law, then it would be for bondage that God sets us free, however, Galatians 5:1 says that it is for freedom that God sets us free, so you are not correctly identifying which law Paul was referring to. In Psalms 119:142, the Mosaic Law is truth, and in John 8:31-36, it is sin in transgression of the Mosaic Law that puts us in bondage while it is the truth that sets us free.

if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law - Galatians 5:18

It is absurd to interpret that verse as referring to the Law of God as if the Spirit has the role of leading us to rebel against God rather than the role of leading us in truth. Rather, in Galatians 5:16-18, Paul spoke about the desires of the flesh causing us not to do the good that we want to do, which is how he described his struggle with the law of sin in Romans 7, so that is the law that we aren’t under when we are led by the Spirit, not the Law of God.

the strength of sin is the law- 1 Corinthians 15:56

In Romans 7:7, the Law of God is not sinful, but is how we know what sin is, so the Law of God that teaches us to refrain from sin is not the strength of sin, but rather the law of sin is the strength of sin.

the law worketh wrath- Romans 4:15

The fact that the Law of God brings wrath for those who refuse to submit to it is not very good justification for refusing to submit to it.

we are not under the law- Romans 6:15

Paul described the law that we aren’t under as being a law where sin had dominion over us, which dies not describe the Law of God, but rather it is the law of sin where sin had dominion over us.

ye also are become dead to the law - Romans 7:4

The Law of God is His instructions for how to bear fruit for Him, so we do not need to die to it in order to do bear fruit for Him, but rather we needed to die to a law that was hindering us from obeying the Law of God, namely the law of sin.

we are delivered from the law- Romans 7:6

In Romans 7:22-23, Paul said that he delighted in obeying the Law of God, but contrasted it with the law of sin that held him captive. In Romans 7:6, we have been released from a law that held us captive, so again he was speaking about the law of sin. Verses that you interpret as referring to the Law of God should make sense for it to be referring to something that Paul delighted in obeying.

we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter- Romans 7:6

The Spirit has the role of leading us to us to obey the Mosaic Law (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

Jesus made us free from the law of sin and death- Romans 8:2

If you interpret a bunch of verses that are speaking about the law of sin as though they were speaking against the Law of God, then you are embracing the law of sin. In Romans 8:4-7, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God, so again the Law of the Spirit of Life has not made us from from the Law of God.

 

[Soyeong]

5-ALL the scriptures you posted are all TRUTH.

The SUM/Completion/Purpose of Scripture for us, is to lead us to CHRIST.

So you're in favor of Christians walking in God's way, you said nothing to counter the Scriptures that demonstrates that the Mosaic Law is God's way, yet you won't agree that Christians should obey the Mosaic Law, and instead arguing that God's way has ended and become obsolete. It should not make sense to you to interpret God's word as speaking against walking in God's way.

Galatians 3:19
What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made;

Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

The Mosaic law was TEMPORARY = Galatians 3:21-25
But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

FAITH in the LORD Jesus Christ RISES Above the Mosaic law = Galatians 3:25
But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor/Mosaic law.

In Galatians 3:16-19, a new covenant does not nullify the promise of a covenant that has already been ratified, so it is also true that the New Covenant does not nullify our need to obey the Mosaic Law in connection with the promise.

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so turning from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom, which is in accordance with Jesus been sent as the promised seed to bless us by turning us from our wickedness, yet it somehow makes sense to you to think that now that faith has come we are now free to return to doing what the Mosaic Law reveals to be wickedness? In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the Mosaic Law leads us to Christ because it was given to teach us how to know him, but it does not lead us to Christ so that we can then reject everything he taught and go back to doing what the Mosaic Law reveals to be sin. Someone who disregarded everything that their tutor taught them after they left would be missing the whole point of a tutor and would need to go back for a remedial education.

Moreover, in Galatians 3:26-29, every aspect of being children of God (1), in Christ (2), through faith (3), and being children of Abraham and heirs to the promise (4) is directly connected with living in obedience to the Mosaic Law. In 1 John 3:4-10, those who do not practice righteousness in obedience to the Mosaic Law are not children of God (1). In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (2). In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Mosaic Law (3). In John 8:39, Jesus said that if they were children of Abraham, then they would be doing the same works as him (4).

We are not under the old covenant

In that the LORD says, “A new covenant,” HE has made the first (Mosaic law) obsolete. - Hebrews 8:13

I agree that we are not under the Mosaic Covenant, but rather we are under the New Covenant, which involves God putting the Mosaic Law in our minds and writing it on our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33, Hebrews 8:10), so while the Mosaic Covenant has become obsolete, the Mosaic Law did not become obsolete alone with it.

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. - Romans 10:4

In Romans 9:30-10:4, the Israelites failed to attain righteousness because they misunderstood the goal of the law by pursuing it as through righteousness were earned as the result of their works in order to establish their own instead of pursing it as through righteousness were by faith in Christ, for knowing Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith. In Romans 10:5-10, it references Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to saying that the Mosaic Law is not too difficult for us to obey, that the one who obeys it will attain life by it, in regard to what we are agreeing to obey by confessing that Jesus is Lord, and in regard to the way to believe that God raised him from the dead. So nothing in this passage has anything to do with ending the Mosaic Law, but just the opposite.

YESHUA HaMoshiach is the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE = no man comes to the Father but thru ME...........follow JESUS only

The Mosaic Law is God's way (Psalms 119:1-3), the truth (Psalms 119:142), and the way to see and know the Father (Exodus 33:13), and Jesus embodied the Mosaic Law by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to it, so he is the embodiment of the way, the truth, and the life, and the way to see and know the Father (John 14:6-7). In other words, God's word is not a different way to Father than through God's word made flesh. The way to the Father is not by rejecting His word.

 

[David in NJ]

So you're in favor of Christians walking in God's way, you said nothing to counter the Scriptures that demonstrates that the Mosaic Law is God's way, yet you won't agree that Christians should obey the Mosaic Law, and instead arguing that God's way has ended and become obsolete. It should not make sense to you to interpret God's word as speaking against walking in God's way.


In Galatians 3:16-19, a new covenant does not nullify the promise of a covenant that has already been ratified, so it is also true that the New Covenant does not nullify our need to obey the Mosaic Law in connection with the promise.

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so turning from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom, which is in accordance with Jesus been sent as the promised seed to bless us by turning us from our wickedness, yet it somehow makes sense to you to think that now that faith has come we are now free to return to doing what the Mosaic Law reveals to be wickedness? In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the Mosaic Law leads us to Christ because it was given to teach us how to know him, but it does not lead us to Christ so that we can then reject everything he taught and go back to doing what the Mosaic Law reveals to be sin. Someone who disregarded everything that their tutor taught them after they left would be missing the whole point of a tutor and would need to go back for a remedial education.

Moreover, in Galatians 3:26-29, every aspect of being children of God (1), in Christ (2), through faith (3), and being children of Abraham and heirs to the promise (4) is directly connected with living in obedience to the Mosaic Law. In 1 John 3:4-10, those who do not practice righteousness in obedience to the Mosaic Law are not children of God (1). In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (2). In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Mosaic Law (3). In John 8:39, Jesus said that if they were children of Abraham, then they would be doing the same works as him (4).


I agree that we are not under the Mosaic Covenant, but rather we are under the New Covenant, which involves God putting the Mosaic Law in our minds and writing it on our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33, Hebrews 8:10), so while the Mosaic Covenant has become obsolete, the Mosaic Law did not become obsolete alone with it.


In Romans 9:30-10:4, the Israelites failed to attain righteousness because they misunderstood the goal of the law by pursuing it as through righteousness were earned as the result of their works in order to establish their own instead of pursing it as through righteousness were by faith in Christ, for knowing Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith. In Romans 10:5-10, it references Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to saying that the Mosaic Law is not too difficult for us to obey, that the one who obeys it will attain life by it, in regard to what we are agreeing to obey by confessing that Jesus is Lord, and in regard to the way to believe that God raised him from the dead. So nothing in this passage has anything to do with ending the Mosaic Law, but just the opposite.


The Mosaic Law is God's way (Psalms 119:1-3), the truth (Psalms 119:142), and the way to see and know the Father (Exodus 33:13), and Jesus embodied the Mosaic Law by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to it, so he is the embodiment of the way, the truth, and the life, and the way to see and know the Father (John 14:6-7). In other words, God's word is not a different way to Father than through God's word made flesh. The way to the Father is not by rejecting His word.

Romans 3:21
But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe

You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

 

[Soyeong]

Romans 3:21
But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe

You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

What does that have to do with my post? Indeed, the only way to become righteous that is testified about by the Law and the Prophets is through faith and I have not suggested otherwise.

 

[David in NJ]

What does that have to do with my post? Indeed, the only way to become righteous that is testified about by the Law and the Prophets is through faith and I have not suggested otherwise.

Follow the Truth:

1.) the Righteousness of God
2.) apart/separated from the law
3.) the Law and Prophets point to MESSIAH

4.) the Righteousness of God
5.) thru faith in Jesus Christ
6.) to all who Believe

7 = MESSIAH= REST = PEACE = JOY = Eternal Life

Do not mix the law(old wine) which brought death, in with MESSIAH(New Wine) who Brings Eternal LIFE to all who place their trust in HIM.

Matthew 9:17
No one puts a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old garment; for the patch pulls away from the garment, and the tear is made worse.
Nor do they put new wine into old wineskins, or else the wineskins break, the wine is spilled, and the wineskins are ruined.
But they put new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved.”

 

[Soyeong]

Follow the Truth:

The Mosaic Law is truth (Psalms 119:142).

1.) the Righteousness of God
2.) apart/separated from the law
3.) the Law and Prophets point to MESSIAH

4.) the Righteousness of God
5.) thru faith in Jesus Christ
6.) to all who Believe

For God to be righteous means that He is a doer of righteous works and it would be contradictory for God to be righteous apart from being a doer of righteous works, so for us to have the righteousness of God means that we are doers of righteous works and it would be contradictory for us to have the righteousness of God apart from being doers of righteous works. The only way to attain the righteousness of God is through faith that we ought to be doers of the righteousness of God apart from being required to have first done enough righteous works. This is why the faith by which we are declared righteous does not abolish our need to be doers of righteous works, but rather our faith upholds it.

7 = MESSIAH= REST = PEACE = JOY = Eternal Life

Jesus set an example for us to follow of how to be doers of righteous works and in Matthew 11:28-30, he invited people to come to him for rest and to learn from him, not to for people to rest from learning from it. Furthermore, by saying that we will find rest for our souls, he was referencing Jeremiah 6:16-19, where the Mosaic Law is described as the good way where we will find rest for our souls, but you won't walk in it to have rest and peace and joy and eternal life in Messiah. In Hebrews 4:10, we should strive to enter into that rest so that no one may fall away by the same sort of disobedience. In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus said that the way to inherit eternal life if by obeying the greatest two commandments of the Mosaic Law.

Do not mix the law(old wine) which brought death, in with MESSIAH(New Wine) who Brings Eternal LIFE to all who place their trust in HIM.

Matthew 9:17
No one puts a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old garment; for the patch pulls away from the garment, and the tear is made worse.
Nor do they put new wine into old wineskins, or else the wineskins break, the wine is spilled, and the wineskins are ruined.
But they put new wine into new wineskins, and both are preserved.”

Jesus was being asked why his disciples were not fasting and he gave the parable of the wineskins in respond, so you are rather blatantly taking that parable out of context to make a point that has nothing to do with answering the question that Jesus was asked. Jesus is God's word made flesh, so the way to trust him is by obeying God's word, not by refusing to obey it.

 

[St. SteVen]

The law, God's law, Christ's law; three different things.

The Apostle differentiates between each one. Three different things.
He says he is not under the law, though he is not free from God's law,
but is under Christ's law. Three different things. See verse 21,

1 Corinthians 9:19-22 NIV
Though I am free and belong to no one,
I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible.
20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews.
To those under the law I became like one under the law
(though I myself am not under the law),
so as to win those under the law.
21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law
(though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law),
so as to win those not having the law.
22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak.
I have become all things to all people so that
by all possible means I might save some.

Question:
Could Paul become like those not having the law without sinning? (vs 21)

[

 

[Behold]

To those under the law I became like one under the law
(though I myself am not under the law),

This set of verses is defining soul winning.

What all this "law lingo" means is simply........when you are dealing with someone regarding their eternity, then RELATE TO THEM..... as this is the approach that allows it.

Relatability......... or "to become like"...........As Paul is explaining......that you meet them where they are..

Example.

Im a pro musician before i was called into the ministry........so, if im dealing with a person who is not born again... and they love music, or they are a musician.........then i bond with them and relate to their love of music.......so that we establish a connection.
This is how you "become all things to all"........ you find a way to meet them regarding where they are in life......and this allows trust and connection, which allows an open door for you to talk to them about their need of Jesus.

"Relate to them" = "I become all things to all men" so that i might WIN THEM to Jesus..........Paul is explaining.

 

[Davy]

- What's the difference between the law and the Law? (capital L)

- What's the difference between the law and God's law?

- What's the difference between the law, God's law, and Christ's law?


The law, the Law, God's law, Christ's law; four different things.

....

What a bunch of silliness.


Brethren,
just imagine what believers who speak a different language than English, with Bibles in their own language, would think of the silliness of this thread?

God's Word uses many metaphors, symbols, allegories, analogies, etc., and those are simply common tools in all languages. Hebrew uses probably more language idioms than our English language does. So it's silliness to try and makeup whole 'doctrines' from it.

This is what Lord Jesus warned us about with the 'leaven' doctrines of men per Matthew 16.

With Jesus' miracles of the loaves and fishes, He asked His disciples how many baskets of 'fragments' they brought back up after feeding the multitude. And they said twelve baskets. In other words, they gathered much more than actually went out, and the gathered was 12 baskets in the form of fragments, bits and pieces. Jesus was actually teaching His disciples how the miracle represented an allegory for how His Word (The LOAF) goes out originally whole, but then returns in the form of bits and pieces added to it, i.e. fragments. Those fragments represent the leaven doctrines of men ADDED to The Word of God.

 

[Davy]

So what is this matter Brethren in Christ?

The phrase, "law of liberty" in The New Testament, like James 2:12, or "law of Christ" in Galatians 6:2, or "law of God" in Romans 8:7, or "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" of Romans 8:2; or the "law of sin and death" in that same verse, or "the law of my mind" in Romans 7:23, or here's a good one for you ladies, "the law her husband" in Romans 7:2; or "the law of faith" in Romans 3:27; etc.

Each one of those phrases using the word "law" appears in conjunction with the CONTEXT of the verse where it appears. That means ... game show watchers... we have to do what, to understand the meaning behind all those phrase using the word "law"?

We have to go LOOK THEM UP in God's written Word, and KEEP THEM WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF WHERE THEY ARE WRITTEN.

It should be obvious, and common sense, that God's law, whether the word 'law' is capitalized or un-capitalized, that it will appear in Scripture referring to God's Old Testament law of judgments, statutes, ordinances, and commandments. Apostle Paul refers to God's law in his Epistles, like 1 Timothy 1, showing that many of God's laws are still... in effect today against the sinner and the ungodly, and that it was not made for the righteous. Many laws of modern western society are derived... from God's law written in The Old Testament Books of Moses.

What Lord Jesus nailed to His cross were the 'ordinances' in God's law, like sacrifices, offerings, ceremonial worship, etc., especially the blood ordinances. Judgments, statues, and commandments still exist for the Church today. It's only that we in Christ are to LOOK at God's law in a NEW way, according to The Spirit. For as Apostle Paul taught in Galatians 5, that IF... we in Christ walk by The Spirit, then we won't be doing anything that is against God's law. And per 1 John 1, that IF... we do slip up into future sin, we are to repent of it and ask Christ forgiveness, and He has promised to cleanse us. That is how we in Christ now have the Liberty in Christ Jesus today. We are forgiven as we take it to Him, our Mediator to The Father in our behalf.

So don't confuse all those New Testament expressions using the word 'law'. It is certainly not... about a law (lowercase) and a Law (uppercase), because when The New Testament translations use that word, it can be lowercase and refer to God's law of The Old Testament.

 

[Lambano]

Question:
Could Paul become like those not having the law without sinning? (vs 21)

I've always found Paul's thinking on this to be curious:

13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the Law (Torah) was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come. (Romans 5:13-14)

and

12 All who sin apart from the Law (Torah) will also perish apart from the Law (Torah), and all who sin under the Law (Torah) will be judged by the Law (Torah). (Romans 2:12)

The Apostle differentiates between each one. Three different things.
He says he is not under the law, though he is not free from God's law,
but is under Christ's law. Three different things. See verse 21,

To be "under the Law" refers to submitting oneself to Torah. My understanding that this is common Jewish usage of the term.

I think saying he's "not free from God's law but subject to the law of Christ" is just a poetic way of saying that he is still subservient to God and Christ, but that is not the same as observing Torah. Nothing to see here.

 

[Lambano]

To be "under the Law" refers to submitting oneself to Torah. My understanding that this is common Jewish usage of the term.

I think saying he's "not free from God's law but subject to the law of Christ" is just a poetic way of saying that he is still subservient to God and Christ, but that is not the same as observing Torah. Nothing to see here.

Or maybe there is something to see here. Romans as a whole (despite what our local hyper-dispensationalist might say) is about forming a new "people of God" from both Jews and Gentiles around loyalty to Messiah Jesus. (Romans is so rich in theological material, does anybody ever stop to ask, "What's this letter all about?")

The "New Perspective" theologians like by Sanders, Dunn, Stendahl, Hays, Wright, et. al. have pointed out that what Paul consistently fights against are those aspects of Torah that differentiate Jew and Gentile within Messiah Jesus's new people. Those things cultural anthropologists call "boundary markers". Circumcision. Sabbath and other Jewish time-markers. The Kosher food laws. You see it in Galatians, Romans 14, Philippians 3, and elsewhere in Paul's letters. But he consistently reinforces Torah's condemnation of the "sins of the flesh"; see 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and Galatians 5:19-21 for examples.

 

[St. SteVen]

Nothing to see here.

I think the thing to see here is that the law (Torah law) is different than God's law.
Sin was in the world before the law (Torah law) was given. (Romans 5:13-14)
Sin was sin because it was in violation of God's law. (human conscience)

[

 

[Lambano]

The "New Perspective" theologians led by Sanders, Dunn, Stendahl, Hays, Wright, et. al. pointed out that what Paul consistently fights against are those aspects of Torah that differentiate Jew and Gentile within Messiah Jesus's new people. Those things cultural anthropologists call "boundary markers".

That's right; Paul is Woke.

 

[Lambano]

Sin was sin because it was in violation of God's law. (human conscience)

No, Paul looks at "Sin" (with a capital S, or maybe an uncial Alpha) not just as a violation of God's law, but as a power that enslaves human hearts. Sin as a power can be identified by its effect on mankind. Torah just identifies Sin for what it is.

7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know Sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting (Greek, "lust") if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet (Greek, 'Lust').” ... 13 Therefore did that which is good become death for me? May it never be! Rather it was Sin, in order that it might be shown to be Sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment Sin would become utterly sinful. (Romans 7:7,13)​

​

"Sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.” (Genesis 4:7b)​

​

This concept is a lynchpin of Reformed theology. And they may have gotten this one right. But don't tell brother Pinseeker.

 

[Lambano]

I think the thing to see here is that the law (Torah law) is different than God's law.

Now you're making me sorry that I brought up that Paul reinforces Torah's prohibitions against the sins of the flesh, because it reinforces the concept that God and Christ have their own internal list of "do's" and "dasn't do's" that's a subset (or intersecting set?) of Torah. That was not my intent. (Nor do I think it was Paul's either.) I think Paul was talking about being subservient to Christ's purposes, regardless of any "law".

But since I've already lost that battle, I might as well bring up a positive, "thou shalt" aspect of "Christ's law":

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Sin was sin because it was in violation of God's law. (human conscience)

No, Paul looks at "Sin" (with a capital S, or maybe an uncial Alpha) not just as a violation of God's law, but as a power that enslaves human hearts.

That is the Sin I was referring to. Are you saying Sin can be sin without a violation of God's law? (God-given human conscience)

[

 

[St. SteVen]

Now you're making me sorry that I brought up that Paul reinforces Torah's prohibitions against the sins of the flesh, because it reinforces the concept that God and Christ have their own internal list of "do's" and "dasn't do's" that's a subset (or intersecting set?) of Torah.

Was there sin before Torah was given? Yes, obviously.
What was that sin a violation of? (God's law) = God-given human conscience.

Why was it wrong for Cain to murder his brother?

[

 

[Lambano]

(God-given human conscience)

I would argue a God-given human conscience is NOT a given.

1. As any moral relativist will tell you (you can find them on any college campus or on Facebook and Twitter), "right" and "wrong" have to be educated into a child. As such, the "conscience" is just a reflection of the values of the surrounding social environment, enforced by the promise of reward and/or threat of punishment. As a category, those values are just those traits which have been shown to help survival of the social group.

2. Some subset of humanity is resistant to moral programming. These are your sociopaths. You can see them on the 11:00 news. Some of their crimes are quite spectacular.

3. I have argued elsewhere that Paul sees our depraved minds as God's punishment on humankind for our idolatry and lack of reverence towards Him:

28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to an unfit mind, to do those things which are not proper. (Romans 8:28)

So, we don't have a God-given conscience; we have God-given depravity. When Paul talks about "Sin" as an enslaving power, that's what he's talking about.

 

[Lambano]

So, we don't have a God-given conscience; we have God-given depravity. When Paul talks about "Sin" as an enslaving power, that's what he's talking about

But I'm not a cynic.