Irrefutable biblical proof that death is abolished at the second coming

[marks]

You have no grasp of apocalyptic language and figurative terms.

Actually, I'm not interested in making personal defense to personally directed comments like this. And besides, I have some real world things to do, so have a blessed day!

Much love!

 

[ScottA]

I am not sure what this means. What is your issue?

It was foretold of the church age, that it would be corrupted by false teachers bringing in destructive doctrines, and they have. As a result, the raised-on-religion, hand-me-down version we now have of Christianity is not greatly different than those first days when the spirit of antiChrist was already at work, except that it has since been compacted into a form of false doctrine bedrock.

Shall I start with one, or are you sticking with the compact? Sorry for being harsh, it's just that it's time to awaken from it. As Jesus told His disciples, "Rise, let us be going!"

 

[BlessedPeace]

1 Corinthians 15:21-26: “For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.”

1 Corinthians 15:51-54: “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.”

The whole context of these passages is noticeably focused in on “the resurrection of the dead” and the termination of death. This is the time when corruption is banished from the earth forever.

But when does this happen?

Both of these passages demonstrate that this occurs at the “coming” (or parousia) of the Lord, which is described as “the last trump.” It also confirms that this ushers in “the end.” This is the closing curtain of time, sin, corruption and mortality. We are now into eternity.

Death is finally and eternally destroyed at the second coming, the time here denoted as “the end.” As Jesus comes and rescues ‘the just’ in the twinkling of an eye He also destroys ‘the unjust’. These passages distinctly describe the end. Those “in Adam all die.” The second coming is shown to be the termination of all rebellion. It is the time “when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power." But equally, “in Christ shall all be made alive.” This is the time “when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father.” It is clear that everything is tied up at the end (“His coming”).

These texts show that for one to inherit the age and state to come, glorification is necessary: “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.” The kingdom age to come (after this age) is perfect. It is incorrupt. Every vestige of the Fall is removed. No mortal can inherit/inhabit or possess this great incorrupt state. It is solely the domain of the glorified. It is eternal. It is not governed by time, as our age is. Time indeed shall be no more when Jesus returns.

This eliminates the oft-stated Premillennial claim that the unsaved can in fact inhabit the new earth. Regardless of whether one is saved or not, if they aren’t glorified, they cannot inherit the new earth. No mortal shall inhabit it.

It is plain to see from these texts: for man to be able to inherit the new glorified earth – which is totally free of the curse – he must be adequately prepared for it. The eternal state is indeed a prepared place for a prepared people.

Man’s whole sinful makeup must be completely changed in order to allow him to grace it. Every vestige of the Fall must be divested before entering into that new arrangement. This is accomplished by way of glorification. The invisible inner man is not only changed (as in conversion), but Paul speaks of a complete bodily change. Whilst we have “earthly” bodies now, at the Lord’s coming we will have new “spiritual” bodies. Our current bodies that are corruptible must be changed into incorruptible ones, so that no trace of the curse remains. Paul presents glorification as the means by which this supernatural metamorphous occurs.

Our “earthly” bodies will be changed to “spiritual” bodies that are completely devoid of sin and corruption. The saints will undergo the same simultaneous transformation that creation experiences. The creature is thus then adequately prepared to inherit the new incorrupt glorified earth. Both can now live in perfect harmony in God’s new eternal order. This arrangement will never again be blighted by the bondage of corruption. Man and creation enter into a new irreversible eternal arrangement.

The phrase “he shall have delivered up” comes from the single Greek word paradidomi meaning surrender, yield up, intrust, or transmit. This is what happens to the kingdom when Christ comes. He surrenders it to His Father, He yields it up.

The converse phrase “he shall have put down” comes from the single Greek word katargeo meaning: bring to nought, none effect, or abolish.

This is what happens to “all” existing “rule and all authority and power” when Jesus Comes. The rule of man comes to an end and now it becomes the rule of God.

After telling us that Christ’s coming sees the termination of the wicked and their evil operations, the writer tells us that Christ’s reign over His enemies must continue until this climactic point. Whilst “all power” is now assuredly given unto Christ “in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18) through His life, death and resurrection, and whilst through this victorious work “he hath put all things under his feet” in a sovereign manner, we have not yet seen the final subduing of wickedness.

God’s purpose is that the entire creation will be regenerated. That is, the whole universe will be freed from the curse of corruption and degeneration. In intent is to bring a whole new order when He returns that will be marked by righteousness and eternality. A new regenerated creation will welcome a freshly perfected redeemed people. We are therefore looking at universal regeneration.

Irrefutable biblical proof that death is not abolished at the second coming

1 Timothy 3:10 And let these also first (prōton) be proved; then (eîta) let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. There's a period of time appointed between the proton and the eita in the above verse. Mark 4:17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time...

www.christianityboard.com

This is what keeps forum BDF'S busy. And the church itself divided.

 

[WPM]

Irrefutable biblical proof that death is not abolished at the second coming

1 Timothy 3:10 And let these also first (prōton) be proved; then (eîta) let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. There's a period of time appointed between the proton and the eita in the above verse. Mark 4:17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time...

www.christianityboard.com

This is what keeps forum BDF'S busy. And the church itself divided.

It would be nice if Premils actually addressed the scriptural arguments outlined here. But they consistently do not. They avoid.

 

[Phil .]

1 Corinthians 15:21-26: “For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.”

1 Corinthians 15:51-54: “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.”

The whole context of these passages is noticeably focused in on “the resurrection of the dead” and the termination of death. This is the time when corruption is banished from the earth forever.

But when does this happen?

Both of these passages demonstrate that this occurs at the “coming” (or parousia) of the Lord, which is described as “the last trump.” It also confirms that this ushers in “the end.” This is the closing curtain of time, sin, corruption and mortality. We are now into eternity.

Death is finally and eternally destroyed at the second coming, the time here denoted as “the end.” As Jesus comes and rescues ‘the just’ in the twinkling of an eye He also destroys ‘the unjust’. These passages distinctly describe the end. Those “in Adam all die.” The second coming is shown to be the termination of all rebellion. It is the time “when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power." But equally, “in Christ shall all be made alive.” This is the time “when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father.” It is clear that everything is tied up at the end (“His coming”).

These texts show that for one to inherit the age and state to come, glorification is necessary: “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.” The kingdom age to come (after this age) is perfect. It is incorrupt. Every vestige of the Fall is removed. No mortal can inherit/inhabit or possess this great incorrupt state. It is solely the domain of the glorified. It is eternal. It is not governed by time, as our age is. Time indeed shall be no more when Jesus returns.

This eliminates the oft-stated Premillennial claim that the unsaved can in fact inhabit the new earth. Regardless of whether one is saved or not, if they aren’t glorified, they cannot inherit the new earth. No mortal shall inhabit it.

It is plain to see from these texts: for man to be able to inherit the new glorified earth – which is totally free of the curse – he must be adequately prepared for it. The eternal state is indeed a prepared place for a prepared people.

Man’s whole sinful makeup must be completely changed in order to allow him to grace it. Every vestige of the Fall must be divested before entering into that new arrangement. This is accomplished by way of glorification. The invisible inner man is not only changed (as in conversion), but Paul speaks of a complete bodily change. Whilst we have “earthly” bodies now, at the Lord’s coming we will have new “spiritual” bodies. Our current bodies that are corruptible must be changed into incorruptible ones, so that no trace of the curse remains. Paul presents glorification as the means by which this supernatural metamorphous occurs.

Our “earthly” bodies will be changed to “spiritual” bodies that are completely devoid of sin and corruption. The saints will undergo the same simultaneous transformation that creation experiences. The creature is thus then adequately prepared to inherit the new incorrupt glorified earth. Both can now live in perfect harmony in God’s new eternal order. This arrangement will never again be blighted by the bondage of corruption. Man and creation enter into a new irreversible eternal arrangement.

The phrase “he shall have delivered up” comes from the single Greek word paradidomi meaning surrender, yield up, intrust, or transmit. This is what happens to the kingdom when Christ comes. He surrenders it to His Father, He yields it up.

The converse phrase “he shall have put down” comes from the single Greek word katargeo meaning: bring to nought, none effect, or abolish.

This is what happens to “all” existing “rule and all authority and power” when Jesus Comes. The rule of man comes to an end and now it becomes the rule of God.

After telling us that Christ’s coming sees the termination of the wicked and their evil operations, the writer tells us that Christ’s reign over His enemies must continue until this climactic point. Whilst “all power” is now assuredly given unto Christ “in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18) through His life, death and resurrection, and whilst through this victorious work “he hath put all things under his feet” in a sovereign manner, we have not yet seen the final subduing of wickedness.

God’s purpose is that the entire creation will be regenerated. That is, the whole universe will be freed from the curse of corruption and degeneration. In intent is to bring a whole new order when He returns that will be marked by righteousness and eternality. A new regenerated creation will welcome a freshly perfected redeemed people. We are therefore looking at universal regeneration.

To see through the belief in death, simply attempt to describe the direct experience of having been born.

 

[WPM]

To see through the belief in death, simply attempt to describe the direct experience of having been born.

Not sure what your point is. Please explain.

 

[Zao is life]

Why will you not look at the inspired evidence presented above that proves Amil?

Scriptures wrongly interpreted by you through your eisegetical insertion of meanings into the text is not evidence. Your assertions in all of them have absolutely no corroboration with scripture, because they are all assertions you make after eisegetically inserting meanings into the text that the text does not imply.

You have not provided any evidence. You have simply quoted scriptures wrongly interpreted by you because of all the eisegesis you practice, and when the real evidence is presented to you, you falsely assert that it's not evidence because the scripture regarding the millennium has become a parable to you that "seeing you see not, nor do you perceive, and hearing you hear not, nor do you understand".

Your posts and words you choose betray only the fact that you've blinded your mind to the scriptures in a number of respects because you have wrongly interpreted much of scripture through eisegetically inserting meanings into texts that are not there, and closed your mind to even the possibility that you may be wrong.

 

[WPM]

Scriptures wrongly interpreted by you through your eisegetical insertion of meanings into the text is not evidence. Your assertions in all of them have absolutely no corroboration with scripture, because they are all assertions you make after eisegetically inserting meanings into the text that the text does not imply.

You have not provided any evidence.

You seem very uncomfortable with addressing the inspired text presented. That might explain why you run and hid. Could that be because you see what the rest of us see - the above is Irrefutable biblical proof that death is abolished at the second coming?

Let us take one clear passage that forbids your doctrine.

In Luke 20:34-36, Jesus basically compares the temporal imperfect state of this present age/world to the glory of the age/world to come. Jesus says: “The children of this world [Gr. aion or age] marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world [Gr. aion or age], and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.”

This couldn’t be any clearer. This teaching of Christ reinforces the fact that not everyone is qualified to inherit the perfect world to come that arrives with the return of Christ. This narrative totally prohibits mortals and the wicked from populating the new earth. After all, that age is depicted as a reward for the redeemed. It is for those who belong to God. It is for those who know Him personally

 

[Zao is life]

You seem very uncomfortable with addressing the inspired text presented. That might explain why you run and hid. Could that be because you see what the rest of us see - the above is Irrefutable biblical proof that death is abolished at the second coming?

Let us take one clear passage that forbids your doctrine.

In Luke 20:34-36, Jesus basically compares the temporal imperfect state of this present age/world to the glory of the age/world to come. Jesus says: “The children of this world [Gr. aion or age] marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world [Gr. aion or age], and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.”

This couldn’t be any clearer. This teaching of Christ reinforces the fact that not everyone is qualified to inherit the perfect world to come that arrives with the return of Christ. This narrative totally prohibits mortals and the wicked from populating the new earth. After all, that age is depicted as a reward for the redeemed. It is for those who belong to God. It is for those who know Him personally

You never address the correct meaning of the text that ANYONE points out to you because you are uncomfortable with the text when it's not being interpreted by your eisegetical method of interpretation.

You don't only seem to be uncomfortable with the text when it shows up your fallacy, you simply refuse to address what anyone says, only doubling down and making all sorts of statements that have nothing to do with the text or what the other posters point out to you regarding your many fallacies (just like I am doing now with you).

Post # 41 in this thread being an example of MANY such posts of yours.

I don't waste my time with someone who has eisegetically inserted meanings into texts he quotes when I've already showed his error in other posts in other threads but the person does not even address anything that has been pointed out to him.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

1 Corinthians 15:21-26: “For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.”

1 Corinthians 15:51-54: “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.”

The whole context of these passages is noticeably focused in on “the resurrection of the dead” and the termination of death. This is the time when corruption is banished from the earth forever.

But when does this happen?

Both of these passages demonstrate that this occurs at the “coming” (or parousia) of the Lord, which is described as “the last trump.” It also confirms that this ushers in “the end.” This is the closing curtain of time, sin, corruption and mortality. We are now into eternity.

Death is finally and eternally destroyed at the second coming, the time here denoted as “the end.” As Jesus comes and rescues ‘the just’ in the twinkling of an eye He also destroys ‘the unjust’. These passages distinctly describe the end. Those “in Adam all die.” The second coming is shown to be the termination of all rebellion. It is the time “when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power." But equally, “in Christ shall all be made alive.” This is the time “when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father.” It is clear that everything is tied up at the end (“His coming”).

These texts show that for one to inherit the age and state to come, glorification is necessary: “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.” The kingdom age to come (after this age) is perfect. It is incorrupt. Every vestige of the Fall is removed. No mortal can inherit/inhabit or possess this great incorrupt state. It is solely the domain of the glorified. It is eternal. It is not governed by time, as our age is. Time indeed shall be no more when Jesus returns.

This eliminates the oft-stated Premillennial claim that the unsaved can in fact inhabit the new earth. Regardless of whether one is saved or not, if they aren’t glorified, they cannot inherit the new earth. No mortal shall inhabit it.

It is plain to see from these texts: for man to be able to inherit the new glorified earth – which is totally free of the curse – he must be adequately prepared for it. The eternal state is indeed a prepared place for a prepared people.

Man’s whole sinful makeup must be completely changed in order to allow him to grace it. Every vestige of the Fall must be divested before entering into that new arrangement. This is accomplished by way of glorification. The invisible inner man is not only changed (as in conversion), but Paul speaks of a complete bodily change. Whilst we have “earthly” bodies now, at the Lord’s coming we will have new “spiritual” bodies. Our current bodies that are corruptible must be changed into incorruptible ones, so that no trace of the curse remains. Paul presents glorification as the means by which this supernatural metamorphous occurs.

Our “earthly” bodies will be changed to “spiritual” bodies that are completely devoid of sin and corruption. The saints will undergo the same simultaneous transformation that creation experiences. The creature is thus then adequately prepared to inherit the new incorrupt glorified earth. Both can now live in perfect harmony in God’s new eternal order. This arrangement will never again be blighted by the bondage of corruption. Man and creation enter into a new irreversible eternal arrangement.

The phrase “he shall have delivered up” comes from the single Greek word paradidomi meaning surrender, yield up, intrust, or transmit. This is what happens to the kingdom when Christ comes. He surrenders it to His Father, He yields it up.

The converse phrase “he shall have put down” comes from the single Greek word katargeo meaning: bring to nought, none effect, or abolish.

This is what happens to “all” existing “rule and all authority and power” when Jesus Comes. The rule of man comes to an end and now it becomes the rule of God.

After telling us that Christ’s coming sees the termination of the wicked and their evil operations, the writer tells us that Christ’s reign over His enemies must continue until this climactic point. Whilst “all power” is now assuredly given unto Christ “in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18) through His life, death and resurrection, and whilst through this victorious work “he hath put all things under his feet” in a sovereign manner, we have not yet seen the final subduing of wickedness.

God’s purpose is that the entire creation will be regenerated. That is, the whole universe will be freed from the curse of corruption and degeneration. In intent is to bring a whole new order when He returns that will be marked by righteousness and eternality. A new regenerated creation will welcome a freshly perfected redeemed people. We are therefore looking at universal regeneration.

This is an Amillennial view. I disagree!
Scripture tells us that death is defeated for those in Christ - swallowed up in victory. But "for ever man in his own order".
There is a first resurrection at the Second Coming.
Then there is a second resurrection after the Millennial Kingdom also accompanied by " the "second death".
So if death is destroyed once and for all ( the first time around), there wouldn't be a second death.
The second death is when Death and Hades and everyone in it is thrown into the Lake of Fire and destroyed >>> after the Millennial Kingdom.
In Zech. 14, The day of the Lord is described.
1. Spoils are divided - therefore not destroyed. Which brings to mind Jesus words: the meek shall inherit the earth.
2. God gathers nations against Jerusalem.
3. The city is taken.
4. "The remnant of the people shall not be cut off".
5. The Lord fights against those nations. His feet stand on the Mount of Olives! The mountain splits.
6. Probably nuclear war (vs. 12)
7. Light will be diminished in those days.
8. Living water will flow out of Jerusalem (after they experiencing waters of death, poisoned during the GT). Waters turn to blood, 1/3 of the fish died. So now life comes back.

>> The Great Tribulation in Rev. 6-19, Ezek. 37-39, Zech. 12,14, and other books DOES NOT DESTROY THE EARTH. The first earth remains, continues, with nations, children being born and dying, people visiting Jerusale from all nations to worship JESUS ON HIS THRONE IN JERUSALEM.
After the 1000 years, the the first heavens and first earth are destroyed. 2 Peter 3:10 descri es this event. THEN Death is annihilated and the New Jerusalem replaces the first heavens and earth.

 

[WPM]

You never address the correct meaning of the text that ANYONE points out to you because you are uncomfortable with the text when it's not being interpreted by your eisegetical method of interpretation.

You don't only seem to be uncomfortable with the text when it shows up your fallacy, you simply refuse to address what anyone says, only doubling down and making all sorts of statements that have nothing to do with the text or what the other posters point out to you regarding your many fallacies (just like I am doing now with you).

Post # 41 in this thread being an example of MANY such posts of yours.

I don't waste my time with someone who has eisegetically inserted meanings into texts he quotes when I've already showed his error in other posts in other threads but the person does not even address anything that has been pointed out to him.

You have nothing to bring to the table apart from avoidance and name calling. That is your MO. That marks every discussion you engage with Amils. When you are actually prepared to address the inspired text you may come back.

 

[WPM]

This is an Amillennial view. I disagree!
Scripture tells us that death is defeated for those in Christ - swallowed up in victory. But "for ever man in his own order".
There is a first resurrection at the Second Coming.
Then there is a second resurrection after the Millennial Kingdom also accompanied by " the "second death".
So if death is destroyed once and for all ( the first time around), there wouldn't be a second death.
The second death is when Death and Hades and everyone in it is thrown into the Lake of Fire and destroyed >>> after the Millennial Kingdom.
In Zech. 14, The day of the Lord is described.
1. Spoils are divided - therefore not destroyed. Which brings to mind Jesus words: the meek shall inherit the earth.
2. God gathers nations against Jerusalem.
3. The city is taken.
4. "The remnant of the people shall not be cut off".
5. The Lord fights against those nations. His feet stand on the Mount of Olives! The mountain splits.
6. Probably nuclear war (vs. 12)
7. Light will be diminished in those days.
8. Living water will flow out of Jerusalem (after they experiencing waters of death, poisoned during the GT). Waters turn to blood, 1/3 of the fish died. So now life comes back.

>> The Great Tribulation in Rev. 6-19, Ezek. 37-39, Zech. 12,14, and other books DOES NOT DESTROY THE EARTH. The first earth remains, continues, with nations, children being born and dying, people visiting Jerusale from all nations to worship JESUS ON HIS THRONE IN JERUSALEM.
After the 1000 years, the the first heavens and first earth are destroyed. 2 Peter 3:10 descri es this event. THEN Death is annihilated and the New Jerusalem replaces the first heavens and earth.

Once again, you did not address anything i actually presented. That is the only way that Premil survives. Premils cannot address the multiple passages that forbid their position. You transpire to deviate off on a rabbit trail referencing passages that make no mention of a future millennial age.

You cannot even recognize who or what the first resurrection is. How then can you understand Rev 20? There is one literal first resurrection where Christ defeated the grave. The Bible makes it clear that Christ is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5).

Now, can you address the Op please?

 

[WPM]

Actually, I'm not interested in making personal defense to personally directed comments like this. And besides, I have some real world things to do, so have a blessed day!

Much love!

That was not my intent. I apologize if that is the way it came across.

1. Do you believe Satan and his minions are physical beings?
2. Is the dragon in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical dragon?
3. Is the serpent in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical serpent?
4. Is the key mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal door key?
5. Is the chain mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal chain?
6. Is the prison mentioned in Revelation 20:7 a literal brick prison?
7. Do you believe demons need to be detained in a literal physical prison with literal metal chains in order to be restrained?
8. Can a prisoner in a prison have great wrath while in chains?
9. Does imprisonment mean immobility?
10. Does it mean a prisoner cannot do harm?
11. Can a dog on a chain walk or roam about?
12. Can a prisoner in a prison walk or roam about?
13. Does a prisoner have the ability to kill, steal, destroy, rape and embezzle in prison?

 

[WPM]

Except per the 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 passage you submitted, where you should have also included verses 55-57 as well, it is then obvious, if context means anything, that verse 54 and this portion--Death is swallowed up in victory--is not also being applied to the unsaved lost. To apply that to them as well, is to then apply this to the unsaved lost, what is recorded in verse 57---But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.


Let me ask this then. The very moment the last trump sounds, has the great white throne judgement already preceded this, thus has finished entirely? Or is that meaning a time after the last trump already sounded first?

And let me ask this as well. The very moment the last trump sounds, has what is recorded in Revelation 19:19-21 already preceded the last trump? Or is that meaning after the last trump already sounded first?

Until the great white throne judgment has been fulfilled, there is no way that 1 Corinthians 15:24 can be meaning in the same twinkling of an eye involving the last trump and saved mortals putting on immortality. And besides, once again, 1 Corinthians 15:57 already makes that crystal clear to begin since it would be ludricrous to apply that to the unsaved that get cast into the LOF, as if any of them would be saying, But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. IOW, context matters. By disregarding context one is then going to come to all sorts of absurd conclusions about what is being meant.

1 Corinthians 15:50-55 declares, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then [Gr. tote] shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?”

Here is irrefutable evidence of when “death” is finally defeated and “swallowed up in victory.” It is when the redeemed are glorified. It is “when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality.” This does not happen at the end of some supposed future millennium as Premillennialists would have us believe. No! It happens at the second coming.

Premillennialist writer Alexander Reese confirms the meaning of the Greek word tote in The Approaching Advent of Christ, whilst referring to another parallel second coming passage in Matthew 13:43, saying, “Then (tote, at that time) shall the righteous shine forth.” So, it is then (tote) at the last trump, and not till then, that death is finally defeated.

 

[marks]

That was not my intent. I apologize if that is the way it came across.

It's an interesting enough discussion, but the whole schoolyard tone to the thread really turns me off.

You have no grasp of apocalyptic language and figurative terms.

It seems that you look at the Revelation as Hebrew Apocalyptic Genre, is that right? The form of Hebrew writings prevelant in the couple of centuries before Christ, to a little bit after?

I would assert that the Revelation of Jesus Christ is not, emphatically not, Hebrew Apocalyptic, which arose from human source, not by divine inspiration.

And while the Revelation may remind some people of Hebrew Apocalyptic, and while some people seek to interpret the Revelation in the same manner by which they would seek to understand the writers of Hebrew Apocalyptic, it's just not the same thing.

The Revelation is divinely inspired, and understood the same way as other prophetic passages and visions. There is a great deal of narrative prophecy in the Bible, and that includes the Revelation.

Regarding figurative language, we look for what the Scriptures tell us about such. The Bible tells us all about differnet metaphors and symbols and types, and similies and allegory and parable.

When we declare something to be a symbol, if the Bible doesn't make that same declaration, we are only giving our opinion. When we declare that a plainly stated passage actually means something else, but the Bible doesn't make such a statement, we are again stating our own opinion, except that it will be already refuted by the plain saying of the passage.

Is the "great chain" made of steel, like we make a chain? I don't know. I'm thinking not. That's how we make a chain. But I don't doubt that Satan will be chained, whatever that chain be made of.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Is the dragon in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical dragon?

This serves as a great example.

Revelation 20:2 KJV
And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

There is a parallel passage:

Revelation 12:9 KJV
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

This reflects back to an earlier part:

Revelation 12:3 KJV
And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Wonder . . . semeion . . . a sign

John in his vision saw a sign in the heaven, which is later defined that this is the devil, Satan.

And in ch. 20 the same language is used, and we can know, the "dragon" is a sign for Satan, we know because we are told.

Much love!

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Once again, you did not address anything i actually presented

I did, it's flawed. I pointed out the distinctions in bold letters that are separated by 1000 years.
You failed to respond to my rebuttal. You Preterists do not comprehend Revelation 6-20. Oh, you understand what it will like in the end, you just aren't sure what's coming before that

You cannot even recognize who or what the first resurrection is

I recognize that Jesus was resurrected, and spiritually death was defeated BUT 1 Thes. 4:16-17; 1 Cor. 15 :52; Rev. 7:9 are referring to OUR FIRST RESURRECTION, which likely will happen by 2030, and I lean on much sooner than that.

You transpire to deviate off on a rabbit trail referencing passages that make no mention of a future millennial age.

 

[WPM]

I did, it's flawed. I pointed out the distinctions in bold letters that are separated by 1000 years.
You failed to respond to my rebuttal. You Preterists do not comprehend Revelation 6-20. Oh, you understand what it will like in the end, you just aren't sure what's coming before that

I recognize that Jesus was resurrected, and spiritually death was defeated BUT 1 Thes. 4:16-17; 1 Cor. 15 :52; Rev. 7:9 are referring to OUR FIRST RESURRECTION, which likely will happen by 2030, and I lean on much sooner than that.

There are NOT 2 first resurrections. That is ridiculous. That is how Premil hermeneutics work. There are no consistent rules to operate by. Anything goes.

Obviously, the physical resurrection at the second coming is not the first if Jesus resurrection precedes it. That is a no brainer. Scripture tells us that Jesus is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5). Nowhere does it call the future resurrection of the dead in Christ the first resurrection.

The first resurrection describes Jesus’ defeat of the grave. Your reasoning negates the one-and-only first resurrection – which is historic and glorious. Revelation 20 demonstrates the great victory that was wrought against every enemy of the righteous and the favored place that the dead in Christ now hold, since sin, death, Satan, Hades and eternal punishment has been defeated.

Your usage of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 to support a future first resurrection is untenable. There are two parties in 1 Thessalonians 4. The "first" are "the dead in Christ" alone! The second are the 'live in Christ' alone! The word "first" is there to simply distinguish between the dead in Christ and the live in Christ at the general resurrection and also show an order of rising. Basically, the dead rise first and then the “live” rise second. 1 Thessalonians 4 is simply showing sequence. It is not talking about the "first resurrection."

For you, it is only the dead in Christ that partake in the Premil first resurrection and overcome the second death when Jesus comes. Your theology causes millions of living Christians to miss the eternal blessing of overcoming the second death.

The reality is this is talking about our spiritual identification with Christ in salvation.

 

[Phil .]

Not sure what your point is. Please explain.

If interested, simply proceed to describe the direct experience of being born.

 

[WPM]

If interested, simply proceed to describe the direct experience of being born.

You are going to have to be clearer.