What Is "Predestination"? How Does It Shape Your Daily Life?

[Stumpmaster]

I would be apt to believe this (and there is a lot more substance I could add to the argument), excepting for the fact that it says those who are born of God are not born of the will of man... unless you argue that in order to become a child of God you have to put your will aside and cooperate with God?

The Bible gives the reason for unbelief, and initially it is of Satanic origin, not Divine Predetermination.

2Co 4:4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Eph 2:1-2 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, (2) in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience.

1Jn 3:10 By this the children of God are distinguished from the children of the devil: Anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

Faith is required for Grace to be applied.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

The Word of God is required for Faith to be supplied.

Rom 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

All who have Faith in Jesus Christ have access to Grace in which they stand justified.

Rom 5:1-2 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, (2) through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

 

[GracePeace]

The Bible gives the reason for unbelief, and initially it is of Satanic origin, not Divine Predetermination.

2Co 4:4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Eph 2:1-2 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, (2) in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience.

1Jn 3:10 By this the children of God are distinguished from the children of the devil: Anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

Faith is required for Grace to be applied.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

The Word of God is required for Faith to be supplied.

Rom 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

All who have Faith in Jesus Christ have access to Grace in which they stand justified.

Rom 5:1-2 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, (2) through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

I'm asking people who do not accept the conventional meaning of "predestined" (ie, God chose it, made it happen) to share their definition for it. It seems you reject the conventional meaning. What do you think it means instead?

 

[GracePeace]

Yup, but I'm playing a game of not reconciling John with the rest of Scripture right now--"What if all I had to go on was John's writings--his Gospel, his Epistles, his Revelation--what would I believe?" I'm seeing things from a different perspective for the moment, to see if it bears good fruit (it already has). I've already tried the other way.

If I lived in the ancient world, and I only knew John the Apostle, would that be sufficient?

@Lambano Only bc his writings seem to be so different. There are different reasons that could explain that. One, less controversial, would be that he merely emphasizes different things than others.

Example: He says "Neither this man nor his parents sinned so that he was born blind, but he was born blind so that the works of God might be displayed."

But Jesus, in the same book, DOES affirm that sin is the reason bad things happen: "Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you."

So, is Jesus denying that the man was born blind because of sin? No, He is merely shifting our focus to a more important/edifying truth.

So, John really does teach everything that everyone else teaches in the Bible, but he merely emphasizes, shifts our focus to, more important and edifying truths.

Many things are factual, but not all things are appropriate to speak about. What would the loving thing to say be? That is what is "correct" an "appropriate". It may be that John is more spiritually mature, so he's led by the Spirit to emphasize truths that are more edifying.

 

[Lambano]

Yup, but I'm playing a game of not reconciling John with the rest of Scripture right now--"What if all I had to go on was John's writings--his Gospel, his Epistles, his Revelation--what would I believe?" I'm seeing things from a different perspective for the moment. I've already tried the other way.

If I lived in the ancient world, and I only knew John the Apostle, would that be sufficient?

Fair enough. I've heard it said that if you could only have one book in your Bible, make it the Gospel of John.

But John has his own warnings against apostasy that have to be taken seriously. 1 John 2:18-27 comes to mind. He just says that if you leave, it just means you never were really His (v19). Tales from the flip side. And so he exhorts his little children to remain.

 

[GracePeace]

Fair enough. I've heard it said that if you could only have one book in your Bible, make it the Gospel of John.

But John has his own warnings against apostasy that have to be taken seriously. 1 John 2:18-27 comes to mind. He just says that if you apostatize, it just means you never were really His (v19). Tales from the flip side. And so he exhorts his little children to remain and not leave.

Yeah, I know that one, but, in his Gospel, he only provides examples of people who had invalid faith, never actual children of God, who fall away! "If they were of us they would have remained with us"! Why? "I will not lose one" "No one can snatch them out of My hand".

 

[Lambano]

Yeah, I know that one, but, in his Gospel, he only provides examples of people who had invalid faith, never actual children of God, who fall away! "If they were of us they would have remained with us"! Why? "I will not lose one" "No one can snatch them out of My hand".

Yeah, but that only begs the question of whether your faith is valid or invalid. Not comforting.

 

[GracePeace]

Yeah, but that only begs the question of whether your faith is valid or invalid. Not comforting.

You know it's valid if you know God, because knowing God is eternal life--and He changes your life, cleans your sin.

What became of the ones who had invalid faith?

1. John 6, they saw the signs and tried to make Christ King by force--they didn't really believe in Christ, but thought Christ would fulfill their dreams of what "the Prophet that is to come into the world" would be. Christ denies they seek Him because of the signs, though it had said "when they saw the signs". In other words, yes, the signs made them "believe"... but not in Christ (His Words), but made them believe He was the guy who would fulfill their own ideas about a Christ. Therefore, the more Christ spoke, they eventually fell away--and Christ said, "Therefore, I said that no one can come to Me unless the Father draws him."

2. The Jews who the text says "believed", in John 8, later, are told, "You are of your father the devil." They weren't "of God", so they couldn't have a valid belief, because only those who are "of God" go to Christ, only those "of the truth" can "hear Christ's voice". Their belief wasn't in Christ, it was an invalid faith in an idea about what they thought Christ should be. If we stick to John, let John interpret John, there never was any life, so they are the branches that are "removed" because of not actually abiding in a life-giving connection with Christ. "You are clean through the Word I spoke to you", and "the Father removes the branches that do not abide"--by speaking Words.

These are examples of men with invalid faith. In both cases, they were not of God.

 

[Lambano]

You know it's valid if you know God, because knowing God is eternal life--and He changes your life, cleans your sin.

A lot of people think they know God.

As for cleaning up your sin... I know addicts and alcoholics who beg God to get them clean and sober - but they still fight the addiction. Gays who beg God to straighten them out - but they're still attracted to the wrong people. People with besetting sins who confess, repent, and fall again; rinse and repeat. All they can do is trust that "My grace is sufficient for you".

 

[GracePeace]

A lot of people think they know God.

As for cleaning up your sin... I know addicts and alcoholics who beg God to get them clean and sober - but they still fight the addiction. Gays who beg God to straighten them out - but they're still attracted to the wrong people. People with besetting sins who confess, repent, and fall again. All they can do is trust that "My grace is sufficient for you".

I've heard of that.

Nevertheless, anyone who has met Christ knows their life was dramatically changed. They found that missing part of life they always thought had to exist.

 

[GracePeace]

A lot of people think they know God.

As for cleaning up your sin... I know addicts and alcoholics who beg God to get them clean and sober - but they still fight the addiction. Gays who beg God to straighten them out - but they're still attracted to the wrong people. People with besetting sins who confess, repent, and fall again; rinse and repeat. All they can do is trust that "My grace is sufficient for you".

God set me free from porn more than a decade ago.
Do you know how?
Only by trust.
No struggle. The fiery darts were extinguished by grace through faith.
I think the more we trust God, the more He works in us.
What do we "trust"?
I'm satisfied, having seen the power in my life, with trusting John.

 

[GracePeace]

A lot of people think they know God.

As for cleaning up your sin... I know addicts and alcoholics who beg God to get them clean and sober - but they still fight the addiction. Gays who beg God to straighten them out - but they're still attracted to the wrong people. People with besetting sins who confess, repent, and fall again; rinse and repeat. All they can do is trust that "My grace is sufficient for you".

I gotta go-ta sleep! I'll regret it if I deny sleep biology thinking I'm spiritual.
LOL

 

[Lambano]

Nevertheless, anyone who has met Christ knows their life was dramatically changed. They found that missing part of life they always knew existed.

True, but Paul still had pride and insecurity issues (2 Corinthians 11-12), Peter still waffled under pressure (Matthew 26:69-75, Galatians 2:11-18), and so on.

God set me free from porn more than a decade ago.

Praise God for that. :) My heart goes out to those who KNOW they need God's grace.

 

[Stumpmaster]

I'm asking people who do not accept the conventional meaning of "predestined" (ie, God chose it, made it happen) to share their definition for it. It seems you reject the conventional meaning. What do you think it means instead?

We need to dispense with the dogmas and categories of the Calvinist -Arminian dichotomy. Both are flawed and adherence to either means limiting God to man's perception and concepts.

In response to some erroneous preaching on the subject of predetermination taking place I stood up and very concisely proclaimed that predetermination and freewill are not mutually exclusive.

I regularly use a four dimensional framework to describe the interactions between God and man. I believe God has created us with a dimension of freewill which He wants us to exercise in harmony with His Will.

1. Foreknowledge - God always knows everything, if He doesn't then He isn't God.

1. Predestination - God predestines elements of existence, such as the Laws of Nature, the criteria for salvation, and the outcome of Judgment Day.

1. Freewill - God calls everyone to repentance and actively works on our freewill to lead us to repentance from dead works and to faith towards Him.

1. Divine Intervention - God knows those who are His and does whatever He wills to do according to His wisdom, mercy, and grace.

None of these is mutually exclusive of the others, and in His eternal foreknowledge God is always intimately acquainted with all those who will eventually populate heaven, and has predestined them to be conformed to the image of His Son.

 

[GracePeace]

True, but Paul still had pride and insecurity issues (2 Corinthians 11-12), Peter still waffled under pressure (Matthew 26:69-75, Galatians 2:11-18), and so on.

Yeah, and I don't detect that pride in John.

Praise God for that. :) My heart goes out to those who KNOW they need God's grace.

But I mean REALLY set me free--I used to fear falling into it, but once He delivered me, I don't even have a single THOUGHT of it! Lol

 

[GracePeace]

We need to dispense with the dogmas and categories of the Calvinist -Arminian dichotomy. Both are flawed and adherence to either means limiting God to man's perception and concepts.

I recognized that in the past, and use "Monergist" and "Synergist" now.

In response to some erroneous preaching on the subject of predetermination taking place I stood up and very concisely proclaimed that predetermination and freewill are not mutually exclusive.

Right, compatibilism.

I regularly use a four dimensional framework to describe the interactions between God and man. I believe God has created us with a dimension of freewill which He wants us to exercise in harmony with His Will.

1. Foreknowledge - God always knows everything, if He doesn't then He isn't God.

That has to be worked out though bc He sent angels to see if the outcry against Sodom was true. He had to learn.

1. Predestination - God predestines elements of existence, such as the Laws of Nature, the criteria for salvation, and the outcome of Judgment Day.

So, "predestination" (whatever it is) doesn't affect believers directly ?

1. Freewill - God calls everyone to repentance and actively works on our freewill to lead us to repentance from dead works and to faith towards Him.

Except those born of God aren't born of the will of man.

1. Divine Intervention - God knows those who are His and does whatever He wills to do according to His wisdom, mercy, and grace.

Is this conventional predestination or "I like you for now, so I'll help you" ?

None of these is mutually exclusive of the others, and in His eternal foreknowledge God is always intimately acquainted with all those who will eventually populate heaven, and has predestined them to be conformed to the image of His Son.

OK please don't offer so much detail in the future. I want to know what you think predestination is (not what it isn't), and how (if at all) it affects your daily life.

 

[GracePeace]

Yeah, and I don't detect that pride in John.

But I mean REALLY set me free--I used to fear falling into it, but once He delivered me, I don't even have a single THOUGHT of it! Lol

@Lambano Come to think of it, it was trust (and the activity of Grace through it) that conquered those fearful thoughts (and those fearful thoughts had always precipitated a fall into the sin)... and it's probably going to work the same with my fearful thoughts of going to hell, or sinning (eg, pride)--trust will expel those fearful thoughts, and God will deliver me. As He says, "sanctify them in the truth--Thy Word is truth". I love this! Perfect love casts out fear--and, not infrequently, fear precipitates sin, so it makes sense that trusting in His love, expressed in His Word, sanctifies us.

 

[Lambano]

@Lambano Come to think of it, it was trust (and the activity of Grace through it) that conquered those fearful thoughts (and the fearful thoughts always precipitated a fall into sin)... and it's probably going to work the same with my fearful thoughts of going to hell, or sinning (eg, pride)--trust will expel those fearful thoughts, and God will deliver me. As He says, "sanctify them in the truth--Thy Word is truth". I love this! Perfect love casts out fear--and, not infrequently, fear precipitates sin, so it makes sense that trusting in His love, expressed in His Word, sanctifies us.

What I'm hearing is that your trust is based on your perception of God's faithfulness and not your perceived election "before the foundation of the world". And I think that is as it should be. I've found that contemplating what decisions may or may not have been made in Eternity Past is counterproductive.

The problems I see with contemplating a decision that may or may not have been made outside of space and time are:

1. You and I weren't there, so we don't KNOW.
2. For those with addictions and besetting sins, God's refusal to deliver them (or a relapse into that besetting sin) is evidence that God predestined them for damnation. That works AGAINST trusting God.
3. The main argument of the anti-OSAS crowd is that considering oneself a member of the predestined Elect gives the believer one of Big Boy's licenses to sin. This may be a valid concern, or just a strawman argument; I'm not sure. It may be one of my blind spots.
4. Considering oneself as one of the predestined Elect (while others are not) leads one to the sin of Pride of Position. It's easy to see this one in others while being blind to it in myself.
5. Considering others as the predestined damned is definitely counterproductive.
6. Considering oneself as one of the predestined Elect leads one to ignore the very serious Biblical warnings against the dangers of apostacy.

 

[GracePeace]

What I'm hearing is that your trust is based on your perception of God's faithfulness and not your perceived election "before the foundation of the world".

Yeah, I can't reconcile what Paul says with what Paul says, but I know Jesus says "You have been with Me since the beginning" (Jn 15:27)--trusting Him means I trust that, too.

And I think that is as it should be. I've found that contemplating what decisions may or may not have been made in Eternity Past is counterproductive.

I don't have to wonder about it if He said it. It just is the case.

The problems I see with contemplating a decision that may or may not have been made outside of space and time are:

1. You and I weren't there, so we don't KNOW.

If I'm His disciple, it's incumbent upon me to accept His Word. He said "You've been with Me since the beginning", so He wanted SOMEONE to believe that... why not me? Lol

1. For those with addictions and besetting sins, God's refusal to deliver them (or a relapse into that besetting sin) is evidence that God predestined them for damnation. That works AGAINST trusting God.

Besetting sins are conquered by trust--fear actually opens the door to satan.

1. The main argument of the anti-OSAS crowd is that considering oneself a member of the predestined Elect gives the believer one of Big Boy's licenses to sin. This may be a valid concern, or just a strawman argument; I'm not sure. It may be one of my blind spots.

If believing you're part of the OSAS elect is an instance of trusting God, then, according to Jesus, it would be a means of sanctifying Grace. If we say, rather, "Be afraid until you get to heaven", that's like the fearful servant (Mt 25), and that fear might actually keep you in sin, and end up actually sending you to hell--a self-fulfilling prophecy.

1. Considering oneself as one of the predestined Elect (while others are not) leads one to the sin of Pride of Position. It's easy to see this one in others while being blind to it in myself.

No, rather, when you're trusting and rejoicing in Christ, you become an emissary of Christ, and "the one who seeks the glory of the one who sent him, the same is true and there is no unrighteousness in him"--the more we affirm His Word, the more accurately we represent Him, the more He increases and we decrease, and the less sin we have/the more righteous we become.

1. Considering others as the predestined damned is definitely counterproductive.

Again, when your eyes are focusing on God and Christ, you're just focusing on God and Christ. What God says sanctifies--IF He said it, and you believe it, it will edify you.

1. Considering oneself as one of the predestined Elect leads one to ignore the very serious Biblical warnings against the dangers of apostacy.

Yeah, I've lived with those fears--I'm sure you've seen posts I've made in the past along those lines--but now I'm trying something new.

 

[GracePeace]

What I'm hearing is that your trust is based on your perception of God's faithfulness and not your perceived election "before the foundation of the world".

Think of that phrase "God's faithfulness": untethered to a Word, without a referent, it is meaningless. "God's faithfulness"... to what? To do what? About what? I'm filling in the blank with doctrines from John's Gospel.

 

[marks]

Saying they're "married to God" is effectively saying they're "God's People"--

You are here introducing an equivalency of terms, and then building on that.

You are saying, they were God's people, and they were married to Him, and we're God's people, so ergo we are married to Him.

However, this is not the statements from Scripture.

Much love!