Paul claimed 3 times that Rev 20:4 was a current reality.

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Mr E

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The breath of life (spirit) that gave Jesus, the man, physical, mortal human life did not die/sleep when His body did. His spirit after physical death left His mortal flesh and returned to the Father. The breath of life (spirit) that gives every living breathing creature on the earth physical life could not ascend to heaven a living (soul) spiritual body until the spirit of Christ returned there first.

Luke 23:46 (KJV) And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Acts 7:59 (KJV) And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV)
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The mortal body of Jesus, as you said went into the tomb and after three days the breath of life (spirit) returned to His body of flesh which proved Christ had bound Satan's power to hold people in bondage to fear of death because His bodily resurrection proves death could not hold Him. This is when and how Satan was bound in the pit and would not be loosed again until TIME for proclaiming the Gospel unto all the nations of the world shall be no longer (Rev 10:5-7).

Yes after 40 days of proving death could not hold Him, being seen by many, Christ was seen physically ascending to heaven in the same manner He will be seen coming again.

Sort of...

The spirit was never laid in the tomb, but had already departed when Jesus died on the cross. The spirit (Christ) ascended, then descended again after 3 days rest. Scripture records the event as the angel of the Lord descending at the tomb, and rolling away the stone. Nothing is said of the mortal flesh other than it's gone. His angel is different. Jesus appears in different places, at different times, in different forms-- to different people in different ways.
 
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Mr E

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How do you know the many that saw this miracle of physical resurrection were living humans on this earth? How can they be physically resurrected from the graves since Scripture says the graves with ALL the dead shall not be until an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds?

John 5:28-29 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 (KJV) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

I'm saying it wasn't physical.
 

rwb

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Of course I do its in the OP

I agree Marty. My reason for the question is because I don't see a need for spiritually reigning with Christ after physical death in heaven, nor do I see a need for saints to reign with Christ on the new earth??? I believe that's one of the reasons it's important to understand when John writes "they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years". This is pertaining to TIME symbolized a thousand years before they were martyred. They are alive in heaven a spiritual body of believers, because in life, before they died, they lived and reigned with Christ in TIME symbolized a thousand years.

The same thing shall be of those "who shall reign with him a thousand years" (vs6). They too during their life time (symbolized a thousand years) before they die shall reign with Christ in life before they die, so they too as priests of God and of Christ in life, have part in the first resurrection, have overcome the second death, so they will not be numbered with the dead who shall be called before the GWTJ.
 

rwb

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Sort of...

The spirit was never laid in the tomb, but had already departed when Jesus died on the cross. The spirit (Christ) ascended, then descended again after 3 days rest. Scripture records the event as the angel of the Lord descending at the tomb, and rolling away the stone. Nothing is said of the mortal flesh other than it's gone. His angel is different. Jesus appears in different places, at different times, in different forms-- to different people in different ways.

I agree! His spirit did not succumb to death as His physical body did but returned to heaven alive. Now, since Christ has risen from the dead, the spirit alive of all who live and die in Christ shall leave the mortal flesh and ascend to heaven a spiritual body of believers there.
 

PinSeeker

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Actually, I'm not sure anyone here could even be labeled a partial preterist. I'll just say what I believe, and then people can either agree or disagree with it...

I believe that at least most of John's prophecies are in the process of being fulfilled ~ which is to say neither some of them (partial preterism) nor all of them (full preterism) have been fulfilled. Most all of John's prophecies (except the final conflict and the return of Christ, obviously; those things are yet to com) have multiple ~ maaaaaaaany :) ~ iterations over the course of the millennium, many of which have taken place, and many of which are happening now, and many of which are still yet to come. For example, in the first four chapters of Revelation, Jesus addresses the seven churches, and all the addresses are applicable to all churches to some degree through the course of the millennium; all churches have fallen, are falling, and will fall into these... categories... through the course of the millennium.

So again ~ in my opinion ~ neither the partial preterist or full preterist label is appropriate.

Grace and peace to all.
 

PinSeeker

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Sort of...

The spirit was never laid in the tomb, but had already departed when Jesus died on the cross. The spirit (Christ) ascended, then descended again after 3 days rest. Scripture records the event as the angel of the Lord descending at the tomb, and rolling away the stone.... His angel is different. Jesus appears in different places, at different times, in different forms-- to different people in different ways.
Agreed, and I would equate this coming back down 3 days after His crucifixion with Revelation 20:1-3. :)

Grace and peace to you, Mr. E.
 
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Marty fox

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I agree Marty. My reason for the question is because I don't see a need for spiritually reigning with Christ after physical death in heaven, nor do I see a need for saints to reign with Christ on the new earth??? I believe that's one of the reasons it's important to understand when John writes "they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years". This is pertaining to TIME symbolized a thousand years before they were martyred. They are alive in heaven a spiritual body of believers, because in life, before they died, they lived and reigned with Christ in TIME symbolized a thousand years.

The same thing shall be of those "who shall reign with him a thousand years" (vs6). They too during their life time (symbolized a thousand years) before they die shall reign with Christ in life before they die, so they too as priests of God and of Christ in life, have part in the first resurrection, have overcome the second death, so they will not be numbered with the dead who shall be called before the GWTJ.

Okay thanks but my question was do you think that they still reign in the time between satans release and the end of our world?
 

Davidpt

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I agree! John is very clear that Satan's little season shall not begin until TIME symbolized a thousand years has finished. According to what is written in Rev 10 about the sounding of the seventh trumpet when "there shall be time no longer" we read that DAY(S), not one day, but "in the day(s) of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished". Days equate to an unknown amount of TIME is still to come. So what TIME shall be no longer? IMO it is the TIME, symbolized a thousand years, when Satan is bound as the Gospel of the Kingdom of God is sent unto all the nations of the world that the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven might be complete. The mystery that had been declared to His servants and prophets? That the Gospel of the Kingdom of God would be declared unto all the nations of the world, and Gentiles would complete the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven as they are evangelized by the Christian Gospel sent in the power of the Holy Spirit.

Revelation 10:6-7 (KJV) And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

The spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven is complete that the salvation of the last Gentile to be saved. TIME for proclaiming the Gospel is finished, and Satan is set free one last "little season" to continue his persecution of Christ and His people. Just when Satan and his minions, Gog & Magog have successfully encompassed all that is still alive during his little season, the saints in the graves will be resurrected bodily in immortality and incorruptible to be caught up with all the saints still alive on the earth, to meet the Lord in the air. Then fire will come down from God out of heaven to devour whatsoever is still left alive on this earth at that time. Judgment Day has come for the dead, and time to receive eternal reward for faithful saints. Then there will be a new heaven & earth where Christ and His saints shall be forever!

I grasp your logic as to why you are reasoning some of these things in this manner. On one hand it tends to make sense, on the other hand it tends not to. I just don't see the logic in satan's little season occurring during the 7th trumpet? The 7th trumpet involves the wrath of God not satan deceiving nations. Assuming satan's little season happens in this age, it would have to be involving the 42 month reign of the beast. Can't see the 42 month reign of the beast occurring during the 7th trumpet when the little season meant per the 5th seal is already pertaining to the 42 month reign of the beast and that the 5th seal events precede the 7th trumpet events.
 

grafted branch

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Yes, the many saints who had already died, came out of the graves a spiritual body of believers after the resurrection of Christ. And the spirit of David was among them. The rest of the DEAD are not believers, as David was.
But David was physically dead, although he was not martyred, he was physically dead. The initial group in Revelation 20:4 is physically dead people according to your view. The rest of the dead has to be referring back to the initial group of physically dead people.

Why isn’t David part of the initial group when he was physically dead and his spirit was raised along with the others in Matthew 27:52-53?

If the rest of the dead is partly believers, they would not be written with the rest of the dead!
But that is the problem, you have dead believers who are not part of the rest of the dead. The word “rest” means remainder. The un-martyred believers that were dead and raised in Matthew 27:52-53 have to either be in the martyred subgroup or the rest of the dead subgroup.

They would be among the group who were martyred for their faith, or among the group that shall reign with Christ called "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."
That’s not what Revelation 20 states though. In verse 4 John see the beheaded souls, he doesn’t see saved people who weren’t beheaded. In verse 5 it says but the rest of the dead. There are only two subgroups the beheaded and the rest, you are adding a third subgroup based on verse 6. This can’t be after the remainder has been declared as a subgroup called the rest of the dead, meaning everything else that’s not beheaded.
 

Davidpt

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Sort of...

The spirit was never laid in the tomb, but had already departed when Jesus died on the cross. The spirit (Christ) ascended, then descended again after 3 days rest. Scripture records the event as the angel of the Lord descending at the tomb, and rolling away the stone. Nothing is said of the mortal flesh other than it's gone. His angel is different. Jesus appears in different places, at different times, in different forms-- to different people in different ways.

If all of that is true that His spirit ascended to heaven upon death why then did Jesus say, shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth? No way in a million years is the heart of the earth meaning up in heaven. Nowhere in the text below did Jesus ever claim He would be in heaven three days and three nights.

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
 

grafted branch

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We don't have this problem of silence when we realize these saints came out of the graves AFTER the resurrection of Christ, a spiritual body of believers. Their ascending to heaven was witnessed by the multitude of hosts in heaven, and the FACT of life after physical death in heaven is recorded in the Revelation.
There is no problem of silence.

2 Timothy 2:17And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

Before I go on about this verse let me state clearly that I in no way think the Amill view eats as a canker. I think Hymenaeus and Philetus were exploiting an event that was obvious to everyone and using it to deliberately lead people astray. Again I do not think Amill is doing this nor do I think they are overthrowing anyone’s faith.

Ok, if there were no empty graves how is it Hymenaeus and Philetus could even argue that the resurrection had passed? As an Amill you know they couldn’t have been referring to a spiritual resurrection because that would’ve been true.
 

grafted branch

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And yes-- this is exactly like Matt 27, where many people saw something similar. How do you suppose many people saw this?
Hymenaeus and Philetus couldn’t have argued that the resurrection had passed unless there were eye witnesses of the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrection.

Think about, if someone claimed the resurrection had occurred yesterday, all anyone would have to do is look inside the urn of a loved one to know it’s a lie and if no one else saw the resurrected walking around that certainly wouldn’t overthrow the faith of anyone I know.

But if the cemeteries around your city had some opened graves with missing bodies and many different people, all with corroborating stories saw them walking around, then claiming the resurrection had passed could indeed overthrow the faith of some. This would especially be true when the New Testament wasn’t yet written.
 

PinSeeker

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If all of that is true that His spirit ascended to heaven upon death why then did Jesus say, shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth? No way in a million years is the heart of the earth meaning up in heaven. Nowhere in the text below did Jesus ever claim He would be in heaven three days and three nights.

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
His body was indeed in the tomb.

Sorry; you weren't addressing me, but... :) Just... interjecting. Apologies.

Grace and peace to you, David.
 

Davidpt

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But David was physically dead, although he was not martyred, he was physically dead. The initial group in Revelation 20:4 is physically dead people according to your view. The rest of the dead has to be referring back to the initial group of physically dead people.

Why isn’t David part of the initial group when he was physically dead and his spirit was raised along with the others in Matthew 27:52-53?


But that is the problem, you have dead believers who are not part of the rest of the dead. The word “rest” means remainder. The un-martyred believers that were dead and raised in Matthew 27:52-53 have to either be in the martyred subgroup or the rest of the dead subgroup.


That’s not what Revelation 20 states though. In verse 4 John see the beheaded souls, he doesn’t see saved people who weren’t beheaded. In verse 5 it says but the rest of the dead. There are only two subgroups the beheaded and the rest, you are adding a third subgroup based on verse 6. This can’t be after the remainder has been declared as a subgroup called the rest of the dead, meaning everything else that’s not beheaded.

One way to reason some of this might be like such. Initially there is one big group, they are all physically dead. Then the first resurrection occurs. Now some of this group of the dead are no longer dead, they are alive instead, and that the rest of the dead who were not part of this first resurrection, they remain dead until after the thousand years finish. Then they too get to live again.

What some folks seem to be missing here, Revelation 20 records 2 judgments involving the dead. The first judgment is found in Revelation 20:4---and judgment was given to them. The 2nd judgment is found in Revelation 20:11-15. That's the judgment that those that don't live again until after the thousand years are appointed to. You then have the beginning of the thousand years involving the saved bodily rising and putting on immortality, thus the 2nd death having no power over them since they can never die again.


And then you have the rest of the dead not bodily rising until the time of the great white throne judgment after satan's little season. Which then brings up the following question. These that satan deceives after the thousand years, the number of them as the sand of the sea, what were they doing during the thousand years since they would have to be alive during the thousand years if they are alive after the thousand years? IOW, none of these can be meaning the rest of the dead who don't live again until after the thousand years have finished.

Premil has an answer for that, or at least I do, which might mean some Premils might agree some might not.

It is meaning these.

Daniel 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

Clearly, at least to me anyway, verse 12 is meaning when the beast is given to the burning flame. IOW, what happens to the little horn at the time does not also happen to the rest of the beasts. They instead had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time. Which I tend to equate with the thousand years and satan's little season, where a season is meaning the latter and time is meaning the former.

Which also is involving these.

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
 
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Davidpt

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His body was indeed in the tomb.

Sorry; you weren't addressing me, but... :) Just... interjecting. Apologies.

Grace and peace to you, David.

The heart of the earth couldn't possibly be meaning the tomb, though. The heart is in the center, therefore, making the heart of the earth to be meaning in the center of it. No way are any tombs that deep.
 

grafted branch

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One way to reason some of this might be like such. Initially there is one big group, they are all physically dead. Then the first resurrection occurs. Now some of this group of the dead are no longer dead, they are alive instead, and that the rest of the dead who were not part of this first resurrection, they remain dead until after the thousand years finish. Then they too get to live again.
Yes, I agree with this, although I’m sure we place this happening at different times.

I need to think about the Daniel 12:7 rest of the beasts being prolonged for Satans little season. It definitely does seem like it could be a possibility.
Satan is bound from deceiving, and once he is released he gathers for war. Certainly the beasts in Daniel 7 are committed to war.

And then you have the rest of the dead not bodily rising again until the time of the great white throne judgment after satan's little season.


I’m not sure about this, are you saying the rest of the dead live but not bodily during Satans little season?
 

PinSeeker

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The heart of the earth couldn't possibly be meaning the tomb, though.
Okay, well, we disagree on that.

The heart is in the center, therefore, making the heart of the earth to be meaning in the center of it. No way are any tombs that deep.
Hm, well, the heart of the person is not literally in the center of his/her body... :) And when the Bible speaks of one's heart, the actual bodily organ we know as the heart is not what's in view.

Grace and peace to you, David.
 

Davidpt

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Okay, well, we disagree on that.


Hm, well, the heart of the person is not literally in the center of his/her body... :) And when the Bible speaks of one's heart, the actual bodily organ we know as the heart is not what's in view.

Grace and peace to you, David.

What about this passage then?

Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Unless one wants to argue that the soul and body are the same thing, this passage says soul not body. Or unless one wants to argue soul sleep. That's what it would logically have to mean if pertaining to the soul, that if it is in the tomb 3 days and 3 nights, that the soul is sleeping rather than dwelling somewhere else consciously.
 
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Davidpt

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I’m not sure about this, are you saying the rest of the dead live but not bodily during Satans little season?

I'm saying the rest of the dead have zero to do with satan's little season. They don't live again until the time of the great white throne judgment. The way they live again is by being bodily raised from the dead in order to stand before God fully bodily alive at this judgment. IOW, when they get cast into the LOF they are cast in bodily, fully alive. Unless they too possess immortal bodies, they can't possibly remain bodily alive forever though, thus the 2nd death has power over them.