Paul claimed 3 times that Rev 20:4 was a current reality.

[rwb]

Those resurrected in Matthew 27:52-53 are called “many” which means many(high in number); multitudinous, plenteous, "much"; "great" in amount (extent).

In Acts 2:29 David was both dead and buried at that time so he wasn’t one of many that were resurrected in Matthew 27:52-53.

How is it then that the “rest of the dead” in Revelation 20 doesn’t include David?

Yes, the many saints who had already died, came out of the graves a spiritual body of believers after the resurrection of Christ. And the spirit of David was among them. The rest of the DEAD are not believers, as David was.

 

[rwb]

Even though I'm not Amil I still agree that the first resurrection is meaning Christ's, and to have part in it simply means to rise from the dead bodily and receive an immortal body the same way Christ did.

To have part in the resurrection life of Christ is not a bodily resurrection. Partaking of Christ's resurrection comes when we are born again of His Spirit and have spiritually entered the Kingdom of God. None will be bodily resurrected until an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds. That's when faithful saints shall be changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible bodies of flesh, fit for everlasting life on the new earth.

 

[rwb]

Rev 6:9 -- the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held...

It's the same language (and the same group) referenced in Rev 20. >>> I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God...

The ones sitting on the thrones able to judge are not those cut off souls. They are the ones sitting in judgment of those souls. They are those from a previous season, who rest awhile as a kind of reward or sabbath, or fallow. His principles apply always-- even to Adam-- the dust of the earth.

Six years thou shalt sow thy field, and six years thou shalt prune thy vineyard, and gather in the fruit thereof; But in the seventh year shall be a sabbath of rest unto the land, a sabbath for the LORD: thou shalt neither sow thy field, nor prune thy vineyard. That which groweth of its own accord of thy harvest thou shalt not reap, neither gather the grapes of thy vine undressed: for it is a year of rest unto the land.

I too believe those souls in Rev 6:9 are among the martyrs of Rev 20:4. But they were not martyred for the witness of Jesus according to what is written. IMO they could not have been witnesses of Jesus because they lived and died before knowing that name (Jesus. They testified for the Word of God, and their testimony would have been of a Messiah/Redeemer who would come to redeem them. They could not have been witnesses of Jesus before knowing that name. He had to be born and given that name before anyone from Old Testament times could be a witness of Jesus.

Revelation 6:9 (KJV) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Matthew 1:21 (KJV) And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

The omission of the souls under the altar being witnesses of Jesus is what convinces me these are Old Covenant faithful saints who lived and died waiting for the promised Messiah to come and save them. As people of faith, they were covered by the blood of the Lamb, according to promise, before Christ's blood was literally shed for His people. Their spirit could not ascend to heaven after departing their bodies before Christ literally made atonement for sin and defeated death. That's why they are under the altar and not in heaven and crying out for Christ to come and save them. He did this after His resurrection, before ascending to heaven Christ went into the place of the dead reserved for the faithful, called of Old time, "Abraham's bosom."

 

[rwb]

Daniel 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

It is clear as to when OT saints bodily rise. It happens at the end of the days involving the 1290 and 1335 days. Apparently, making the 1335th day the last day of this age. How could it not be? To place these 1290 to 1335 days in another era of time is ludicrous since it contradicts Daniel 12:13.

Daniel 12 is prophecy that begins with the first advent of Christ coming to earth a man. The prophecy covers the whole New Covenant age of proclaiming the Gospel of the Kingdom of God that began when Christ came to earth a man, and will not end until the end of these days.

We know this because Rev 12 shows us that Michael stood up for his people when Christ was born. That's when a war began in heaven between Michael and his angels and Satan and his angels, with Satan and his angels being cast out of heaven and being bound to the earth.

 

[rwb]

I agree, David wasn’t spiritually dead. In Matthew 27:52-53 it’s the bodies <4983> of the saints that came out of the graves. I don’t know if you follow the idea that it was their spiritual bodies that arose or not, but if so then the question arises as to how Moses could’ve been on the mount of transfiguration if both his physical body and spiritual body were still in the grave.

Also in Matthew 27:58, just a few verses after 52-53, Arimathaea asked for the body <4983> of Jesus, obviously His physical body.

Another problem with claiming it was their spiritual bodies only, is seen in Daniel 12:2 where you have a resurrection of many, which again just means many and not all. Where ever you place this resurrection, which includes both saved and unsaved, it means there had to be another resurrection besides this one, which puts any idea of only a single one time bodily resurrection in doubt.

If they came out of the graves as physical bodies resurrected to physical life again why is there nothing to my knowledge (and I've searched) of this fantastic miracle recorded? Since they appeared to MANY humans living in Jerusalem of Old, they were certainly silent about having seen something truly remarkable! When Lazarus was resurrected to physical life again, the word of this miracle spread so quickly that the Pharisees sought to kill him again to stop the spread of Christ having power to raise the dead.

Matthew 27:52-53 (KJV) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

We don't have this problem of silence when we realize these saints came out of the graves AFTER the resurrection of Christ, a spiritual body of believers. Their ascending to heaven was witnessed by the multitude of hosts in heaven, and the FACT of life after physical death in heaven is recorded in the Revelation.

The many of Daniel 12:2 began to be fulfilled when the spirit of the saints came out of the graves after the resurrection of Christ. Daniel writes only of 'many' because not all who would awake to everlasting life had died. Now, since the first advent of Christ the spirit of believers departs the body of flesh and ascends to heaven "every man in his own order" a spiritual body of believers. Just as there is an order to our new birth, when we enter the Kingdom of God one by one when we are saved, so too we join a spiritual body of believers in heaven in the order that we die. We no longer have to wait after physical death as those of Old did, to enter the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven.

Those of Dan 12:2 who shall be raised to shame and everlasting contempt are "the DEAD", all who die in unbelief. As John shows us shall be bodily resurrected to live again, to be judged and have part in the second everlasting death.

 

[rwb]

Whatever came out of the graves, it was obviously transformed into something logical. Meaning that skeletons nor dust of the earth were walking around the holy city being seen by others. And that it didn't include OT saints such as Daniel if Daniel was told to rest until the end of the days. Meaning to me the last day of this present age.

Unless the end of days began with the first advent of Christ. These days are called "these last days". The days/time/era/age for preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom of God, symbolized a thousand years that shall end when the seventh trumpet begins to sound. Just as the prophecy foretells, the graves of the saints of Old opened and the spiritual body of Daniel, and the rest who are a spiritual body of believers are now in heaven.

 

[rwb]

Yes, we can’t know exactly what those bodies looked like but we know that a spirit doesn’t need to have the grave opened nor does it make sense that a spiritual body which slept arose.

I suppose someone could try to argue that this is soul sleep but then they would have to apply that to believers which makes no sense.

As far as if Daniel was in that lot, I don’t know but I wouldn’t argue one way or the other.

We know from 2 Timothy 2:17-18 that Hymenaeus and Philetus were saying that the resurrection had passed already and it would seem to be nearly impossible to make that claim unless there were some empty graves from the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrection.

It will only make sense if/when you have spiritual discernment.

 

[rwb]

I personally have no problem saying the first resurrection happened at the cross or including those in Matthew 27:52-53 as the first resurrection. It’s when we come to “the rest of the dead” and who they are that seems to be the issue.

Ok, so back to the initial group (my term) in Revelation 20:4. I think most everyone sees them as dead, I think they are figuratively dead, do you see them as physically dead or figuratively dead?

The first resurrection did NOT happen at the cross. The first resurrection that all MUST have part in to overcome the second death happened when Christ bodily resurrected from the DEAD. He was DEAD, but is now ALIVE, and all who have part in His resurrection life, share in His everlasting resurrection life. This is how we are in Him, and He in us when we are born again, we have everlasting life NOW, not after we physically die and must wait to be physically resurrected from the graves.

 

[rwb]

The rest-- were all those who died/were killed after this (his) resurrection and after a period (thousand years) of rest.

It's not simply "the rest" it is the rest of the physically dead. To physically die in unbelief means they are of the dead who shall be in silence and darkness in the graves until the thousand symbolic years have finished, then they shall be raised to life again for a resurrection for damnation.

 

[rwb]

Okay but to answer the question when the thousand years ends and satan is released do you not think that Jesus and us still reigns? What happens between his release and the end of our world with fire?

Do you not believe we reign with Christ in this life?

 

[rwb]

Ok, I’m not sure how long this period of rest is, but if someone physically dies during this rest, where would you place them? And are you seeing believers as part of the “rest of the dead” group?

If the rest of the dead is partly believers, they would not be written with the rest of the dead! They would be among the group who were martyred for their faith, or among the group that shall reign with Christ called "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." In this chapter there is only the living and the dead. The living are all those who lived and reigned with Christ in TIME, and those who shall reign with Christ in TIME. The rest of the dead NEVER in TIME live and reign with Christ, so they are both spiritually dead and will physically die in unbelief.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

What evidence do we have that Paul read those particular revelations of Apostle John of Patmos?

None for they were not written until over 30 years later.

 

[Mr E]

Ok, I’m not sure how long this period of rest is, but if someone physically dies during this rest, where would you place them? And are you seeing believers as part of the “rest of the dead” group?

Let me tell you about a dream.

And Jacob went out from Beersheba, and went toward Haran. And he lighted upon a certain place, and tarried there all night, because the sun was set; and he took of the stones of that place, and put them for his pillows, and lay down in that place to sleep. And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it. And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed; And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed. And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.

And Jacob awaked out of his sleep, and he said, Surely the LORD is in this place; and I knew it not. And he was afraid, and said, How dreadful is this place! this is none other but the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven.

People live and die. Each story begins as a seed of life, a gift from God and with it we become a living soul. A lifespan is lived-- a life long, or short and full of experiences, or perhaps lacking, perhaps suffering. But long or short, for good or evil-- a life is lived and from a spiritual perspective we go from womb to tomb. Then what?

Well fortunately we have this story recorded in scripture-- the life of Jesus, from womb to tomb. We know of his birth, his life, his death-- and after three days rest, he rose from that sleep and some forty days after that he ascended to heaven. We also know, from the things he taught, that in this spiritual sense, no one has ascended into heaven that didn't first descend from there.

There's the dream.

The living die and the dying live. And he said>>>>

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

How long is the rest? A day. A year. Your perspective has to move beyond arbitrary measures in the light of eternity. The principle is sabbath rest.

 

[Davidpt]

IMO a thousand years symbolizes all seasons of all time that began with the binding of Satan and won't end until the seventh trumpet begins to sound.

It sounds like to me then that you take the 7th trumpet, when it begins to sound, to be meaning the beginning of satan's little season. How could it not be per this scenario the fact when the thousand years expire satan's little season begins? And that you indicate that the thousand years end when the 7th trumpet begins to sound.

Except there is no getting past it, regardless where one wants to place these things, the thousand years are not the same era of time that satan's little season is. One cannot insist and be taken serious, that satan's little season happens during the thousand years. No it doesn't. It clearly happens after the thousand years, otherwise it contradicts the fact that satan deceives the nations again after the thousand years, not during it.

Even if satan's little season occurs in this age, no way can I see it occuring/beginning once the 7th trumpet begins to sound. Not to mention, what about the time of the dead that occurs when the 7th trumpet begins to sound? One is to believe that happens at the beginning of satan's little season rather than at the end of it, assuming this scenario?

 

[Mr E]

I’ve thought the same thing, that Ezekiel 37 was pointing to Matthew 27:52-53.

Someone posted on another forum that some Jews even today insist on being buried facing Jerusalem/Israel when they die because they expect to be raised as Ezekiel 37 says in vs 12 I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. Apparently they think Ezekiel 37 hasn’t happened yet and they want to be prepared once they come out of their graves, so they won’t wonder which direction to go, they will just go straight forward to Israel.

Ezekiel's vision was just that. He dreamed it. Not taking away from anything he saw, but everything he saw was in spirit....

The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones.

And yes-- this is exactly like Matt 27, where many people saw something similar. How do you suppose many people saw this?

 

[Davidpt]

You're assuming these under the altar lived and died after the first advent of Christ. If that were true, why are they seen under the altar and not in heaven as John says of those who were martyred for the witness of Jesus (Rev 20:4)?

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

I take this passage to be involving two locations, heaven and the earth. I reason it like such.

I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held---something that happened upon the earth which led to their deaths--and now they are in heaven, not sitting on thrones reigning with Christ, but under the altar.

And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?--- They are in heaven when they are crying out like this.

And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season---they are still in heaven and still not depicted as sitting on thrones reigning with Christ, then are told they need to rest a little season before their blood can be avenged,, in order to fulfill, their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were. Then after this little season is finished, God will avenge them all, including their brethren that are killed during this little season.

It is then a question of, what happens every time one of their brethren back on earth is killed during this little season? When they enter heaven in a disembodied state, do they join these under the altar that are told to rest until this little season expires, or do they instead get to sit on thrones and reign with Christ until this little season passes? You then end up with God not being fair. One group of martyrs have to rest until the little season expires, the other group gets to sit on thrones and reign with Christ. Keeping in mind, that resting, in no way shape or form is depicting anyone sitting on thrones reigning with Christ.

It doesn't matter who these martyrs are meaning that are under the altar. The point is, they are told to rest until this little season passes on earth, not sit on thrones and reign instead. So why would their brethren back on earth who are killed during this little season not join these resting until this little season passes once they enter heaven in a disembodied state, but instead get to sit on thrones reigning with Christ?

The main point being, Revelation 20:4 is not meaning during the era of time involving the fifth seal, the 5th seal also involving this little season, it it meaning after this era of time involving the 5th seal. It would basically look like this. The 5th seal followed by the 6th seal, then followed by the 7th trumpet and the last 7 vials of wrath, followed by the 2nd coming, followed by Revelation 20:4. Thus Premil not Amil.

 

[rwb]

Well fortunately we have this story recorded in scripture-- the life of Jesus, from womb to tomb. We know of his birth, his life, his death-- and after three days rest, he rose from that sleep and some forty days after that he ascended to heaven. We also know, from the things he taught, that in this spiritual sense, no one has ascended into heaven that didn't first descend from there.

The breath of life (spirit) that gave Jesus, the man, physical, mortal human life did not die/sleep when His body did. His spirit after physical death left His mortal flesh and returned to the Father. The breath of life (spirit) that gives every living breathing creature on the earth physical life could not ascend to heaven a living (soul) spiritual body until the spirit of Christ returned there first.

Luke 23:46 (KJV) And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Acts 7:59 (KJV) And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The mortal body of Jesus, as you said went into the tomb and after three days the breath of life (spirit) returned to His body of flesh which proved Christ had bound Satan's power to hold people in bondage to fear of death because His bodily resurrection proves death could not hold Him. This is when and how Satan was bound in the pit and would not be loosed again until TIME for proclaiming the Gospel unto all the nations of the world shall be no longer (Rev 10:5-7).

Yes after 40 days of proving death could not hold Him, being seen by many, Christ was seen physically ascending to heaven in the same manner He will be seen coming again.

 

[Marty fox]

Do you not believe we reign with Christ in this life?

Of course I do its in the OP

 

[rwb]

It sounds like to me then that you take the 7th trumpet, when it begins to sound, to be meaning the beginning of satan's little season. How could it not be per this scenario the fact when the thousand years expire satan's little season begins? And that you indicate that the thousand years end when the 7th trumpet begins to sound.

Except there is no getting past it, regardless where one wants to place these things, the thousand years are not the same era of time that satan's little season is. One cannot insist and be taken serious, that satan's little season happens during the thousand years. No it doesn't. It clearly happens after the thousand years, otherwise it contradicts the fact that satan deceives the nations again after the thousand years, not during it.

Even if satan's little season occurs in this age, no way can I see it occuring/beginning once the 7th trumpet begins to sound. Not to mention, what about the time of the dead that occurs when the 7th trumpet begins to sound? One is to believe that happens at the beginning of satan's little season rather than at the end of it, assuming this scenario?

I agree! John is very clear that Satan's little season shall not begin until TIME symbolized a thousand years has finished. According to what is written in Rev 10 about the sounding of the seventh trumpet when "there shall be time no longer" we read that DAY(S), not one day, but "in the day(s) of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished". Days equate to an unknown amount of TIME is still to come. So what TIME shall be no longer? IMO it is the TIME, symbolized a thousand years, when Satan is bound as the Gospel of the Kingdom of God is sent unto all the nations of the world that the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven might be complete. The mystery that had been declared to His servants and prophets? That the Gospel of the Kingdom of God would be declared unto all the nations of the world, and Gentiles would complete the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven as they are evangelized by the Christian Gospel sent in the power of the Holy Spirit.

Revelation 10:6-7 (KJV) And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

The spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven is complete that the salvation of the last Gentile to be saved. TIME for proclaiming the Gospel is finished, and Satan is set free one last "little season" to continue his persecution of Christ and His people. Just when Satan and his minions, Gog & Magog have successfully encompassed all that is still alive during his little season, the saints in the graves will be resurrected bodily in immortality and incorruptible to be caught up with all the saints still alive on the earth, to meet the Lord in the air. Then fire will come down from God out of heaven to devour whatsoever is still left alive on this earth at that time. Judgment Day has come for the dead, and time to receive eternal reward for faithful saints. Then there will be a new heaven & earth where Christ and His saints shall be forever!

 

[rwb]

Ezekiel's vision was just that. He dreamed it. Not taking away from anything he saw, but everything he saw was in spirit....

The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones.

And yes-- this is exactly like Matt 27, where many people saw something similar. How do you suppose many people saw this?

How do you know the many that saw this miracle of physical resurrection were living humans on this earth? How can they be physically resurrected from the graves since Scripture says the graves with ALL the dead shall not be until an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds?

John 5:28-29 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 (KJV) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.