They will reign with Him a thousand years and making an unknown Greek out of the English New Testament

[Zao is life]

You're again ignoring the tenses. It does not say as you do "then began to live and reign with Christ". John writes they LIVED and REIGNED a thousand years. PAST TENSE, because they lived and reigned with Christ during this time symbolized a thousand years before they were martyred for their faithfulness to Christ.

Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (PAST TENSE)

John does not write after they are martyred for their faith "then began to live and reign"!

Why would you find it strange that the spiritual body of Christ exists in heaven as souls still alive? Are they not already a body of Christ physically while living on the earth? Does not Scripture repeatedly tell us the faithful Church as She exists on earth is ONE body, while speaking collectively of the whole?

No I'm ignoring your tense because your tense makes no sense and it's all a lot of re-writing 3 verses of the Revelation to force them to comply with your imagined beheaded spirits in heaven.

While you're about rewriting scripture to make it fit with your own religious mind, why don't you start in Genesis?

 

[grafted branch]

No to whatever you seem to have assumed.

I do not believe in a gap between Daniel 9:26 and 27. Nor am I placing Daniel 12 with Revelation 12.

Daniel 12
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was on the waters of the river, when he held up his right and his left hand to Heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it shall be for a time, times, and a half. And when they have made an end of scattering the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Revelation 10
5 And the angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the earth lifted his hand to the heaven,
6 and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created the heaven and the things in it, and the earth and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it, that there should no more delay.

Daniel 12
8 And I heard, but I did not understand. Then I said, O my lord, what shall be the end of these things?
9 And He said, Go, Daniel! For the words are closed up and sealed until the end-time.
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried. But the wicked shall do wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.

Revelation 10
3 And he cried with a loud voice, like a lion roaring. And when he had cried, seven thunders spoke their sounds.
4 And when the seven thunders spoke their sounds, I was about to write. And I heard a voice from Heaven saying to me, Seal up what things the seven thunders spoke, and do not write these things.

7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he will begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as He has declared to His servants the prophets.

I'm also bearing in mind that Daniel 12 was already partly fulfilled in the days of Antiochus IV Epiphanes, making him a type of the man of sin of 2 Thess 2:4.

So then you don’t think Michael standing up in Revelation 12:1 is when Michael fights the dragon in Revelation 12:7, ok.

Does Michael remain seated while fighting the dragon?

 

[Zao is life]

Does Michael remain seated while fighting the dragon?

Goodbye.

Go ask your tree ridiculous questions and tell it what you assume it said to you. It will be more responsive to you than I will be after this post.

You'll probably argue with the tree, too.

 

[rwb]

No I'm ignoring your tense because your tense makes no sense and it's all a lot of re-writing 3 verses of the Revelation to force them to comply with your imagined beheaded spirits in heaven.

While you're about rewriting scripture to make it fit with your own religious mind, why don't you start in Genesis?

I didn't write anything that John did not! You're finding it difficult to accept that John is saying lived and reigned because it destroys the doctrine of Premillennialists looking for a literal one thousand more years of time on this earth when Christ comes again.

Never imagined spirits in heaven as beheaded??? A spirit is without form, which is why I believe the way we should understand when John says he "saw" is not by physical sight but rather given to understand, of being made aware of, to know, understand and perceive. Which is what we find when we look at how the Greek word eídō (Strong's G1492) is defined.

 

[Zao is life]

Never imagined spirits in heaven as beheaded???

No. Have you?

Oh.. you keep saying so. My bad.

A spirit is without form

No, no. They have form, otherwise you won't be able to know they're headless.

No one will get you out of your box of confusion regarding scripture that you've trapped yourself in through your own human imagination. I've tried but failed so I'm out of this discussion with you now.



Grace and peace to you.

 

[grafted branch]

Goodbye.

Go ask your tree ridiculous questions and tell it what you assume it said to you. It will be more responsive to you than I will be after this post.

You'll probably argue with it, too.

Fine, you are in a cornered you can’t get out of without admitting there is an issue with your view. Got it.

 

[Ritajanice]

Don't be too excited about @Ritajanice liking all your posts. Rita likes posts based not on whether or not she thinks people are correct in what they assert regarding scripture, but on whether or not she likes or dislikes the poster you are disagreeing with. It's very personally motivated and nothing to do with whether or not she actually agrees with much of what you say, except when it's in disagreement with someone she dislikes.

Her likes are very shallow.

Please stick with the discussion and not get personal...you are just making assumptions of my character..if it continues I will report your posts...

Personal attacks ruin threads , then gets the thread locked.

Ritajanice is free to like whoever posts she agrees with,,,that’s all part of forum life.

If you take it “ personally “ then I’m afraid that’s on you.

 

[Ritajanice]

I find people generally, (speaking for myself as well) like replies they feel are based on Biblical truths. While I find it complementary, all the glory is to God alone! I don't reply to garner likes or dislikes, I reply because I am compelled by the Spirit of Christ within me to show what God has revealed to me from His written Word, especially when I find folks defending doctrines that are antithetic to biblical truth.

Amen!....we are all learning...appreciate your posts and learn a lot from them...Praise God.

 

[grafted branch]

Amen!....we are all learning...appreciate your posts and learn a lot from them...Praise God.

Absolutely, we are all learning and sometimes we have to reevaluate some things or admit that we just aren’t certain how to interpret some passages.

 

[Ritajanice]

Absolutely, we are all learning and sometimes we have to reevaluate some things or admit that we just aren’t certain how to interpret some passages.

100% agree...

 

[CadyandZoe]

No soul is "lost forever" as you put it until cast in the LOF and removed from the Lamb's book of life. Adam and Eve are not lost until they stand at the GWT Judgment event mentioned in Revelation 20. That is if you still claim the are "dying you shall die". The first death is physical. The last death is cast into the LOF.

In my view, the "soul" is not the third part of a Tripartite being. The "soul" is the unification of the body and the Spirit, having a personal history, an occupation, and a family line. A "soul" is a life lived. My "soul" is who I am, which includes everything about me. In Genesis 2, Moses indicates that when God took dust from the ground and breathed into it, Adam became a living "soul". Body + Spirit = Soul.

Both the body and the spirit are integral parts of an individual. Thus, the loss of either one leads to the loss of the person as a whole. This can be compared to a mousetrap, where the loss of even a single part results in its destruction. For instance, if the trap arm is missing, the mousetrap becomes incapable of catching mice, and hence, it ceases to function as a mousetrap.

When Adam and Eve physically died, they ceased to be Adam and Eve. This is why it says that the rest of the dead were resurrected in order to be judged. Only when Adam and Eve receive a body do they function as Adam and Eve, and consequently, they can be judged.

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

Since the dead are seen, they have bodies. And since they have bodies, they were resurrected.

Those in Christ were already rising first in Paul's day.

I don't see that. Paul says we all go together at the last Trumpet. Since you place it earlier the rest of your argument falls apart.

 

[PinSeeker]

It's very difficult for me to find clear ways of explaining this, and the angle from which many people are accustomed to looking at this from does not help, so I hope you'll be patient while I have one last try:

1 Peter 3:18-19
"For Christ also once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, indeed being put to death in the flesh,

but quickened | made alive [zoopoieo] in the Spirit [pneûma];

in which also He went and preached to the spirits in prison."

The above was before our Lord's resurrection. Before He was raised from the dead. His body was still dead.

Quickening: Being born of the Spirit relates to the quickening (zōopoiéō) of the Spirit, and the quickening of individuals always occurs with (syzōopoiéō) the quickening experienced by Christ after He died, which occurred while He was dead (before He was raised from the dead):

"But God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us, even us being dead in sins, He has syzōopoiéō (quickened together with) Christ, (by grace ye are saved)". (Ephesians 2:4-5).

Resurrection: | being raised from the dead: The resurrection (anástasis) always relates to the resurrection of the body, and we are told that the dead body will be raised from the dead with (synegeírō) Christ's bodily rising from the dead, who was first quickened, and as a result, raised:

".. and has synegeírō (raised us up together with Christ's bodily resurrection), and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:6).

Not raised: The word syzōopoiéō refers to being made alive ("quickened") together with the Spirit's quickening of Christ after He died, by the same Spirit of God breathing life into a person. Remember that Jesus was only raised from the dead after He was quickened.

Raised: The word synegeírō refers to being raised up together with Christ's bodily resurrection from death.

1 Peter 1:3
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By his great mercy he gave us new birth (anagennáō) into a living (záō) hope THROUGH the resurrection (anástasis) of Jesus Christ from the dead".

1 Peter 1:3 tells us that God has caused us to be born of the Spirit of God THROUGH the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ, but it's not a "spiritual resurrection" or "spiritual rising from death" that Peter is talking about - that's not what it's saying.

The New Testament uses different words for the quickening by the Spirit on one hand, and being raised from the dead (the resurrection) on the other hand, for a reason.

Okay just ask yourself: Is the quickening by the spirit (zōopoiéō) and the resurrection (being raised) the same thing? Or does the latter come about as a result of the former?

Take a look at it from a different angle than you are accustomed to:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By his great mercy he gave us new birth (anagennáō) into a living (záō) hope THROUGH the resurrection (anástasis) of Jesus Christ from the dead" (1 Peter 1:3).

Hope of what, after we have been quickened?​

There’s a lot here to address, FOTG, and maybe I’ll get to it here in a bit, but… why didn’t you answer my question (post#330)? :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[CadyandZoe]

This does not make sense that you think we are currently spiritually alive. All of Adam's descendants are born into physical and spiritual death. No one prior to physical death is spiritually alive. You are only part of the Second Birth by allowing the Holy Spirit to have control of your heart and mind.

Earlier I pointed out that all of our parts are essential. If we lack a body, we cease to be a person. If we lack a spirit, we cease to be a person. Some folks talk about "spiritual death," but they don't actually mean "dead spirit"; they mean "ineffectual or unresponsive spirit." No one is spiritually dead. Someone might be spiritually unresponsive to God or spiritually inept, but not spiritually dead. If all human beings were spiritually dead, then no human being is capable of faith.

And your translation is not entirely correct. No verse states people come out of their graves at the Second Coming. That is human theology inserted into Scripture just like all erroneous human interpretation.

First of all, every interpretation is a human interpretation. Why is that? Because human beings are attempting to understand other human beings. Communicating with language is a human activity.

Paul writes that the scriptures are God-breathed, that is, inspired. But even inspired scriptures, written in human language, must be interpreted by human beings.

Let's not make this common mistake of dismissing an argument because it is a human argument. Let's give reasons for our beliefs and judge one another's arguments according to the principles of sound reason instead.

Paul indicates the dead in Christ will rise first. This is not complicated; it is simple enough to understand. The phrase "in Christ" indicates individuals who belong to Christ. The term "rise," with respect to being dead, means "stand up," as Jesus did when he was resurrected. Granted, some Christians have been dead so long they are nothing but dust. So, the resurrection process will require more steps. According to 1 Corinthians 15, we will all be changed. And I'm certain God can change dust into a person again when the time comes.

 

[Davidpt]

You also argue a thousand years is one thousand years that will come after Christ comes again. But the return of Christ is the same time the dead are resurrected and those alive at His coming are caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air.

Here I am with my questions again, but how can I remotely keep questions out of the discussion when questions need to be asked in order to determine how something should be understood? BTW, whether you realize it or not, but by me asking these quetions it shows how it can fit with Premil since it doesn't seem to fit with Amil. Questions pertaining to what you brought up here, are as follows.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


Where in this context does it say anything about the lost dead also being resurrected at the time? You don't think there are lost ppl alive on the earth when verse 17 takes place? Don't you think it's reasonable that a resurrection of the lost can't happen until at least all of the lost are dead first?

Look at the following, for instance.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.


Notice that after the 7th trumpet has already sounded, we are then told, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great, has come. What about this part--- And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come---and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth---and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail?

Things like that don't happen to ppl already dead. They happen to ppl still alive. Look at the way this chapter ends, meaning verse 19. Does that sound like that is involving the time of Revelation 20:11-15? When you, me, or whoever, reads Revelation 20:11-15, does anything in those verses give the impression that event is involving lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail?

Obviously then, this part---the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great---is pertaining to the first resurrection, and not the 2nd resurrection as well, meaning Revelation 20:11-15.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Right… I… didn’t say he was… Yes, ours.
Ah, he’s assuredly not talking about the event documented by Luke in Acts 1 (Christ’s ascension). He is saying, though, that we have been raised to where He is and seated with Him.

We are not literally seated with him. So Paul is using an analogy.

And I’m going to ask you the same question I asked Fullness Of The Gentiles. I’m not sure if you will answer similarly or not. But Paul is irrefutably writing there in the past tense. Do you believe the Roman Christians he was writing to had ~ and us, by extension, have ~ already been physically/bodily resurrected? And, are we physically sitting with Jesus?

Grace and peace to you.

No, I don't think Paul is talking about resurrection at all. He is talking about Christ being taken into heaven (not physically resurrected.) Since Paul is talking about the time when Christ was raised up to heaven, then he is not talking about Christ rising from the dead. And since Paul is not talking about rising from the dead, then he isn't saying that we rose from the dead with Christ.

and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Paul speaks about the "seating of Christ" and was Christ seated at his resurrection? No, he was seated at his Ascension.

Colossians 3:1 Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

Here we see both concepts together, the risen Christ is seated at the right hand of the Father. As such he has the authority to act as our "proxy" in the matter of salvation. We rose with him in the sense that Jesus acts as our substitute with the authority to speak to the Father on our behalf.

We have a few examples like this in the Bible. An ambassador, for instance, has the authority to make treaties and speak on behalf of the king or President. An Apostle has the authority to speak on behalf of Jesus. And Jesus has the authority to speak for us.

When Paul says that we rose with him, he means that Jesus rose to the Father to make an offering on our behalf and plead that the Father would forgive us and bless us. John says that Jesus is our advocate.

Hebrews 9:11-14:

11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; 12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?​

In any case, Christians didn't go anywhere. They stayed here.

We rose with Christ in that he took our prayers for redemption with him and he made an offering on our behalf, and he made an appeal to God for mercy and salvation. This meant that we didn't need to attend the throne personally. Jesus went on our behalf.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Yes, in heaven souls alive after physical death become a spiritual body of believers in heaven, who were during their lives a physical body of believers on earth. Because the spirit returns to God with life through the Spirit of Christ within.

I don't see what you are saying in the scriptures though. :

 

[PinSeeker]

Some folks talk about "spiritual death," but they don't actually mean "dead spirit"; they mean "ineffectual or unresponsive spirit."

Since I would be in the group of people you’re speaking of here, I’ll address this, if I may. :)

Even within this group speaking of spiritual death, it is entirely likely that different folks have different understandings of spiritual death, so it really is not possible to make general statements or assertions like this.

For me, though, being spiritually dead is synonymous with having a dead spirit. The problem, or the reason that others are not willing to accept this (at least many, if not most times) is that the hearer is not understanding this state of death, or being dead, in the same way as the person speaking of spiritual death or having a dead spirit. This is not because of a lack of intelligence or ignorance on anyone’s part, it’s a simple communication issue. This state of death or being dead in spirit means not that the spirit is unable to do anything, or unresponsive, or absolutely lifeless, but rather unable to respond positively to God and His call to righteousness in Christ because he or she sees no need for salvation or a Savior. He or she regards it as foolishness (Paul, 1 Corinthians 1-2). And this is not because he or she cannot, but rather because he or she will not, because ~ as Jesus says of the Jews to whom He is speaking at the Feast of Dedication in John 10 ~ he or she is of his or her father the devil, and as such is fully and totally inclined against godliness and even God Himself… in that since, he or she is in a state of spiritual death.

No one is spiritually dead.

Well, yes, they are. See above.

Someone might be spiritually unresponsive to God or spiritually inept…

Ah! And so… :)… spiritually dead.

If all human beings were spiritually dead, then no human being is capable of faith.

Well, that’s true, in and of themselves, but ~ thanks be to God ~ He gifts us with saving faith; the Holy Spirit works this faith within us:

“For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, so that no one may boast.” (Ephesians 2:8-9). Faith is a gift of the Spirit (Romans 12; 1 Corinthians 12), apportioned to Christians as He wills. And the ones who receive this gift are His elect Romans 9-11).

Grace and peace to you, CadyAndZoe.

 

[rwb]

Here I am with my questions again, but how can I remotely keep questions out of the discussion when questions need to be asked in order to determine how something should be understood? BTW, whether you realize it or not, but by me asking these quetions it shows how it can fit with Premil since it doesn't seem to fit with Amil. Questions pertaining to what you brought up here, are as follows.

I don't mind questions David, in fact I love them especially if I believe my answer will be helpful. But discussions such as they are can only be beneficial if both sides give answers for what appears to be inconsistencies or contradictions found with the doctrines we hold. You say above you only ask these questions because you want to prove Premil. You say it doesn't fit Amil, but you don't address the arguments against Premil if all you do is ask questions trying to prove Premil.

Where in this context does it say anything about the lost dead also being resurrected at the time? You don't think there are lost ppl alive on the earth when verse 17 takes place? Don't you think it's reasonable that a resurrection of the lost can't happen until at least all of the lost are dead first?

David, we don't learn the Bible by isolating particular passages and verses. The Bible cannot be rightly understood without searching out the answer from other corresponding passages and verses. According to vss 14-15 the passage from 1Th 4 is about the coming of the Lord. Where else in Scripture can you find passages and verses to help you understand all that shall come to pass when the Lord comes again? You want to know if I think its reasonable that a resurrection of the lost can't happen until at least all of the lost are dead first?

Rev 20:7-15 might be able to help you.

 

[PinSeeker]

We are not literally seated with him.

Right. So we’re good on that, at least… ;)

So Paul is using an analogy.

Hmm, so we’re seated like Christ is seated in the heavenly places, not with Him? I mean, that’s very opposite what Paul says, there. We are seated with Christ in the heavenly places”… those are Paul’s exact words; it is a present reality. But I agree that we are not literally ~ in person ~ seated with Christ (nor were any of the Ephesians he was writing to then). So, in view of that, I… think you should… re-evaluate. :)

No, I don't think Paul is talking about resurrection at all.

Oh, okay, well, that’s too bad; it seems you disagree not only with me on that, but also with FullnessOfTheGentiles… and some others here as well. I and others here maintain that the raising that we have received as a result of having been made alive, as Paul says there, is indeed a resurrection. Not a physical one, but indeed a resurrection, and the Greek bears that out.

He is talking about Christ being taken into heaven (not physically resurrected.)

This is a letter to the Christians in Ephesus, CadyAndZoe. He’s not writing about anything happening to Christ Jesus, but rather addressing them personally about what God has done for them.

We rose with Christ in that he took our prayers for redemption with him and he made an offering on our behalf, and he made an appeal to God for mercy and salvation. This meant that we didn't need to attend the throne personally. Jesus went on our behalf.

Oh, my. :). Well… okay. :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[rwb]

I don't see what you are saying in the scriptures though. :

Here are a few verses off the top of my head that IMO prove we have eternal/everlasting spirit life after our body has died. And it seems clear, at least to me that the spirit alive through the Holy Spirit within ascends to heaven still a living, (through without physical form) soul.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

1 Corinthians 15:44 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

2 Corinthians 5:8 (KJV) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

John 14:3 (KJV) And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

John 17:24 (KJV) Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.