How long O Lord

[Davy]

But it is relevant because it would give us insight as to what happens in heaven. If those who have died 2,000 or more years ago haven’t asked the question yet then they must not be able to read our current Bible or communicate with those who are dead that have read it. Also it would indicate that the white robes haven’t been handed out yet either since the robes are given out after the question is asked.

Irrelevant to the Message given on the 5th Seal.

Wait a minute, are you not understanding 'how' or 'why' those souls under the Altar in Heaven are there? or maybe they are just imagined and not really there?

You should already know about that if you've done your homework in God's Word about what happens after our flesh body dies. But still, that is not the reason that Message with the 5th Seal is being given.

Maybe there are a couple of smart alecks in heaven that just refuse to ask the question of how long, preventing all the robes from getting passed out, which prevents the bride from making herself ready in Revelation 19:7. This could explain why all the predictions of the second coming have failed so far, people just aren’t seeing that the Revelation 6:10 question has to be asked first.

You need more Bible study and might want to learn to control your mind from wandering like that. More Bible study will help you with that.

 

[Marty fox]

Marty what I said is that their testimony was not for the witness of Jesus. How could they be witnesses of Jesus before Jesus was born and they called Him Jesus? He had to become a man, and that man was called Jesus, whom all the New Covenant saints are witnesses of Him (Jesus). The name of Jesus is not found anywhere in the Old Testament. He was known only as Messiah or Savior etc. but never Jesus before He was born a human and given that name.

Yes, Jesus is the Word of God that was from creation. And yes the Word was made flesh, just as John writes, but John did not know Him by His human name before He was born a man. Christ could not atone for sin and defeat death until He was made flesh. It is specifically the Gospel message that tells us about the Word that became flesh and gave His human life to make atonement for sin, and defeated death by resurrecting from the dead. The prophets foretell of A Messiah/Savior who would come to take away sin and redeem them from death. But the Old Covenant saints could not be witnesses of the Gospel (Jesus) before His first advent.

John 1:14 (KJV) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Hebrews 2:14-18 (KJV) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

These Old Covenant saints testified to the Word of God they knew as the Messiah, the anointed one (Dan 9:25-26), and their Saviour, but they did not testify of Jesus' personal name. They could not know "thou are the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world" before He came into the world as fully human, and fully Divine. So from the Old it was prophesied that Messiah would come, but Old Covenant saints could not have known of Him as Jesus.

John 11:27 (KJV) She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

Their fellow servants were the remnant of Old saved according to election of grace, and their brethren is Christ. Those who were of faith in the coming Messiah prophesied, who died for their faith before the first advent of Christ, would ascend to heaven together with Christ when His spirit returned to the Father. These faithful martyrs of Old ascended with Christ as a spiritual body of believers to heaven from the grave that in Old Testament times was known as Abraham's bosom. It was believed those who died in faith were carried by the angels to the bosom of Abraham, while those who died in unbelief were simply called the dead and buried.

All who are of Christ are called HIs brothers and sisters in faith whether they are the Old Covenant remnant or the New Covenant faithful from all the nations of the world.

Yes I know all of that and agree Jesus before the first advent was also known as the son of man.

I just don’t agree that these were the faithful before the cross but the faithful who were martyred between the time of the cross and the date that revelation was written. They were killed because of their testimony in Jesus the word of God they are the same people in Revelation 12:11 who overcame by the blood of the Lamb even onto death.

Have you even read up of the comparison between Matthew 24 and revelation 6? You will see that they are the same events if you haven’t look into it there are even chart graphs.

 

[grafted branch]

Wait a minute, are you not understanding 'how' or 'why' those souls under the Altar in Heaven are there? or maybe they are just imagined and not really there?

You should already know about that if you've done your homework in God's Word about what happens after our flesh body dies. But still, that is not the reason that Message with the 5th Seal is being given.

Right, this thread isn’t about the message that the fifth seal is giving nor is it about how or why the souls are under the altar, although I don’t mind talking about those things. This thread is about why they are asking a question (could be any question) when they already know the answer to it.

Now, you are of the opinion that they don’t know the answer because they died prior to the writing of Revelation. I completely agree, it’s the only thing that can make sense. However you seem to be thinking that they haven’t asked the question yet, which creates problems.

I personally think we will be able to see and communicate with each other and I also think Revelation 6:9-11 is available for everyone to see and read in heaven. These things can’t be if you have those at the fifth seal waiting 2,000 years before they finally ask the question because it creates the problem that they know the answer before asking the question.

I told you what I think is happening in heaven. Do you think people can communicate with each other in heaven?

 

[rwb]

Yes I know all of that and agree Jesus before the first advent was also known as the son of man.

Yes, this Psalm in particular makes reference to "the son of man" being made lower than the angels and being crowned with glory and honor. But from the Old Testament there is nothing written to prove they knew the son of man as Jesus. David, clearly knew of a son of man that would be born is this prophecy speaks of Him. In the New Testament the author of Hebrews shows how this prophecy from Old was fulfilled in Jesus, but before Jesus came to earth a man, David was not a witness for Jesus whom he had never heard of.

Psalm 8:4-5 (KJV) What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

Hebrews 2:6-9 (KJV) But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

If these martyred saints of Rev 6 who were under the altar were living saints when Jesus came to earth a man, why is there no mention in the passage of them being witnesses for Jesus as we find of the martyred souls of Rev 20? I believe it's because they were the Old Covenant faithful remnant saved by grace through faith because they believed what was written, here by David, that "the son of man" would come, but they lived and died before ever knowing the name Jesus. The revelation of Jesus was not made known to mankind before Jesus came to earth a man.

I just don’t agree that these were the faithful before the cross but the faithful who were martyred between the time of the cross and the date that revelation was written. They were killed because of their testimony in Jesus the word of God they are the same people in Revelation 12:11 who overcame by the blood of the Lamb even onto death.

Have you even read up of the comparison between Matthew 24 and revelation 6? You will see that they are the same events if you haven’t look into it there are even chart graphs.

There is no mention of their testimony of Jesus being the Word of God in the Old. Unlike the passage from Rev 20 which I believe is referring to saints martyred for their faith in Jesus as they were His witnesses through His Gospel. The passage from Rev 6 tells us only that they were slain for the Word of God and the testimony they held, without any mention of the name Jesus. The Bible doesn't make mistakes the name Jesus is not written there because these Old Covenant faithful names did not know His name would be called Jesus. Nor could they be witnesses of His Gospel since they lived and died before the advent of Christ come to earth a man.

 

[Marty fox]

Yes, this Psalm in particular makes reference to "the son of man" being made lower than the angels and being crowned with glory and honor. But from the Old Testament there is nothing written to prove they knew the son of man as Jesus. David, clearly knew of a son of man that would be born is this prophecy speaks of Him. In the New Testament the author of Hebrews shows how this prophecy from Old was fulfilled in Jesus, but before Jesus came to earth a man, David was not a witness for Jesus whom he had never heard of.

Psalm 8:4-5 (KJV) What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

Hebrews 2:6-9 (KJV) But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

If these martyred saints of Rev 6 who were under the altar were living saints when Jesus came to earth a man, why is there no mention in the passage of them being witnesses for Jesus as we find of the martyred souls of Rev 20? I believe it's because they were the Old Covenant faithful remnant saved by grace through faith because they believed what was written, here by David, that "the son of man" would come, but they lived and died before ever knowing the name Jesus. The revelation of Jesus was not made known to mankind before Jesus came to earth a man.



There is no mention of their testimony of Jesus being the Word of God in the Old. Unlike the passage from Rev 20 which I believe is referring to saints martyred for their faith in Jesus as they were His witnesses through His Gospel. The passage from Rev 6 tells us only that they were slain for the Word of God and the testimony they held, without any mention of the name Jesus. The Bible doesn't make mistakes the name Jesus is not written there because these Old Covenant faithful names did not know His name would be called Jesus. Nor could they be witnesses of His Gospel since they lived and died before the advent of Christ come to earth a man.

Revelation 12
11 They triumphed over him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death.

Revelation 6
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained

Because Jesus is the word of God these are the same or do you see the ones from revelation 12 as the faithful before the cross too?

Revelation 1

12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man,[d] dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars,and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.

17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

In the verses above John knew who Jesus was because it was written after the first advent but he doesn’t use the name Jesus either and He said that he was in prison because of the word of God

Revelation 6

9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,[e] were killed just as they had been.

12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us[f] from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their[g] wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

Besides if they were the faithful before the cross the ones that killed them were already dead and they we’re asking when revelation was written how long would it be for them to be avenged and the text shows that they are killed by the sixth seal after they asked. You see your view doesn’t make any sense

 

[rwb]

Revelation 12
11 They triumphed over him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death.

Revelation 6
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained

Because Jesus is the word of God these are the same or do you see the ones from revelation 12 as the faithful before the cross too?

Revelation 1

12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man,[d] dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars,and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.

17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

In the verses above John knew who Jesus was because it was written after the first advent but he doesn’t use the name Jesus either and He said that he was in prison because of the word of God

Revelation 6

9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,[e] were killed just as they had been.

12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us[f] from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their[g] wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

Besides if they were the faithful before the cross the ones that killed them were already dead and they we’re asking when revelation was written how long would it be for them to be avenged and the text shows that they are killed by the sixth seal after they asked. You see your view doesn’t make any sense

Marty there are two groups of people who are saved by the blood of the Lamb. Those, who are the Old Covenant remnant saved according to election of grace, who looked to the future for the prophecy of the Messiah/Savior who was to come to be fulfilled. The other group are those who are saved according to grace through faith the elect from every nation of the world that look back into history at the cross and resurrection, the finished work that Jesus came to earth to do.

Rev 12 is showing us that Christ was born of "a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars". This depicts Israel of Old, that was the Church in the wilderness (Acts 7:37-38). When Christ was born, Satan, being the great red dragon was there and tried to kill the man child as soon as He was born. But the child being destined to rule the world with a rod of iron is caught up to God and His throne.

It was not at Christ's birth that Christ literally, physically ascended to heaven, that will come to pass after His resurrection. Christ was caught up to God and His throne in the sense of God pulling Him from harm away from Satan. Remember how God spoke to Joseph in a dream telling him to take Mary and the newborn babe and flee away from Herod the king who through the power of Satan was determined to destroy Christ when He was born. (Mt 2:13)

And when Christ was born a battle commenced in heaven between Michael and his angels and the dragon and his angels which ended with the great red dragon called the Devil and Satan being cast to the earth with His demonic hosts. Then a loud voice in heaven was heard saying, "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."

The salvation through the Gospel preached in the power of God was first to the Jew, with repentance and remission of sins beginning at Jerusalem. Since Christ was born the Covenant promise to redeem His people Israel would be fulfilled by Christ. As soon as Christ gave His blood to redeem man from sin and resurrect from the dead, giving them life through His Spirit they would ascend with Christ to heaven a spiritual body of believers.

Romans 1:16 (KJV) For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Luke 24:47 (KJV) And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

The power of His Christ and the Kingdom of God was opened to those who had already died in faith waiting for the Messiah/Saviour to come when Christ was born. But none of them could ascend to heaven a spiritual body of believers before Christ gave His life to ransom them, and defeat death by His resurrection. All those of Old who died in faith waiting for His coming under the altar were then told they must wait until their fellow servants (Jewish remnant) and their brethren (Christ) should be killed as they were. They waited the "little season" that IMO I believe was from Christ's cross to His resurrection and ascension to heaven.

 

[grafted branch]

Revelation 12
11 They triumphed over him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death.

Revelation 6
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained

Because Jesus is the word of God these are the same or do you see the ones from revelation 12 as the faithful before the cross too?

Revelation 1

12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and among the lampstands was someone like a son of man,[d] dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars,and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.

17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

In the verses above John knew who Jesus was because it was written after the first advent but he doesn’t use the name Jesus either and He said that he was in prison because of the word of God

Revelation 6

9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,[e] were killed just as they had been.

12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us[f] from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their[g] wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

Besides if they were the faithful before the cross the ones that killed them were already dead and they we’re asking when revelation was written how long would it be for them to be avenged and the text shows that they are killed by the sixth seal after they asked. You see your view doesn’t make any sense

Hi Marty, you mentioned Revelation 12, can I get your opinion on the pattern in Revelation 12?

In case you’re not familiar here is a summary.

Vs 4 Stars of heaven cast to earth
Vs 4 devour her child
Vs 6 woman fled into wilderness
Vs 7 war in heaven between dragon and Michael
Vs 9 Dragon cast out of heaven to the earth
Vs 13 persecuted the woman
Vs 14 woman fled into wilderness
Vs 17 dragon makes war

The pattern is cast out, persecution, fleeing, and war. Some people say it’s the same event repeated twice using different language while others say it’s two separate events with one foreshadowing the other. What are your thoughts on this?

 

[Marty fox]

Hi Marty, you mentioned Revelation 12, can I get your opinion on the pattern in Revelation 12?

In case you’re not familiar here is a summary.

Vs 4 Stars of heaven cast to earth
Vs 4 devour her child
Vs 6 woman fled into wilderness
Vs 7 war in heaven between dragon and Michael
Vs 9 Dragon cast out of heaven to the earth
Vs 13 persecuted the woman
Vs 14 woman fled into wilderness
Vs 17 dragon makes war

The pattern is cast out, persecution, fleeing, and war. Some people say it’s the same event repeated twice using different language while others say it’s two separate events with one foreshadowing the other. What are your thoughts on this?

Sure thanks for asking I actually have a verse by verse study of revelation 12 I believe they are separate events

Revelation chapter 12:4
4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born.

We see later in verse nine that the stars which the dragon flung to the earth are the fallen angels that fell with him. We also now see that satan the red dragon is symbolized as king Herod (whose family colour was red) who tried to kill Jesus when Jesus was born.

6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

I believe the woman in the verse above to symbolize Jewish believers in Christ. After Jesus ascended back up to heaven the first Christian Jews had about 3 ½ years or 1260 days of protection which ended on the day Stephen was stoned to death


Revelation chapter 12:7-9
7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Verse 7 starts with the word “Then” which proceeds after Jesus’ ascension and the start of the 1260 days of protection of the woman. Satan was cast out of heaven by Michael through the power of Jesus

John12:31
31 Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out.


Revelation 12:13-14
13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach.

After satan was cast to the earth he again pursues the woman (Israel) but she is given two wings of an eagle and taken to the wildness for a set time of a time’ times and a half a time or 3 ½ year. Verse 14 takes us back to the time of the Exodus as Israel was taken to the wilderness by God for protection from Egypt upon eagles wings as mentioned in the verse below.

Exodus 19:4
4 ‘You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt and how I carried you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself

Revelation 12:17
17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

Verse 17 tells us that the dragon then turned his fury to the rest of the woman’s offspring (as the woman was protected for a set time) and that the woman mentioned in verses 13-16 is not the church because the rest of her offspring “the ones who hold to the testimony of Jesus is the church. I believe that this was fulfilled during the persecution by Nero on the church which lasted for 3 ½ years or 42 months and that the persecution is mentioned in the very next chapter in Revelation

 

[Marty fox]

Marty there are two groups of people who are saved by the blood of the Lamb. Those, who are the Old Covenant remnant saved according to election of grace, who looked to the future for the prophecy of the Messiah/Savior who was to come to be fulfilled. The other group are those who are saved according to grace through faith the elect from every nation of the world that look back into history at the cross and resurrection, the finished work that Jesus came to earth to do.

Rev 12 is showing us that Christ was born of "a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars". This depicts Israel of Old, that was the Church in the wilderness (Acts 7:37-38). When Christ was born, Satan, being the great red dragon was there and tried to kill the man child as soon as He was born. But the child being destined to rule the world with a rod of iron is caught up to God and His throne.

It was not at Christ's birth that Christ literally, physically ascended to heaven, that will come to pass after His resurrection. Christ was caught up to God and His throne in the sense of God pulling Him from harm away from Satan. Remember how God spoke to Joseph in a dream telling him to take Mary and the newborn babe and flee away from Herod the king who through the power of Satan was determined to destroy Christ when He was born. (Mt 2:13)

And when Christ was born a battle commenced in heaven between Michael and his angels and the dragon and his angels which ended with the great red dragon called the Devil and Satan being cast to the earth with His demonic hosts. Then a loud voice in heaven was heard saying, "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."

The salvation through the Gospel preached in the power of God was first to the Jew, with repentance and remission of sins beginning at Jerusalem. Since Christ was born the Covenant promise to redeem His people Israel would be fulfilled by Christ. As soon as Christ gave His blood to redeem man from sin and resurrect from the dead, giving them life through His Spirit they would ascend with Christ to heaven a spiritual body of believers.

Romans 1:16 (KJV) For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Luke 24:47 (KJV) And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

The power of His Christ and the Kingdom of God was opened to those who had already died in faith waiting for the Messiah/Saviour to come when Christ was born. But none of them could ascend to heaven a spiritual body of believers before Christ gave His life to ransom them, and defeat death by His resurrection. All those of Old who died in faith waiting for His coming under the altar were then told they must wait until their fellow servants (Jewish remnant) and their brethren (Christ) should be killed as they were. They waited the "little season" that IMO I believe was from Christ's cross to His resurrection and ascension to heaven.

Yes of course I believe and know all of this I just don’t believe that the Old Testament saints are the ones under the altar.

One thing though is that you are wrong in the timing of when satan was cast to the earth Jesus Himself confirms that it was well after His birth and tells us when it happened in the verses below

John 12
27 “Now my soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour. 28 Father, glorify your name!”

Then a voice came from heaven, “I have glorified it, and will glorify it again.” 29 The crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him.

30 Jesus said, “This voice was for your benefit, not mine. 31 Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. 32 And I, when I am lifted up[g] from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” 33 He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.

 

[rwb]

Yes of course I believe and know all of this I just don’t believe that the Old Testament saints are the ones under the altar.

One thing though is that you are wrong in the timing of when satan was cast to the earth Jesus Himself confirms that it was well after His birth and tells us when it happened in the verses below

John 12
27 “Now my soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour. 28 Father, glorify your name!”

Then a voice came from heaven, “I have glorified it, and will glorify it again.” 29 The crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him.

30 Jesus said, “This voice was for your benefit, not mine. 31 Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. 32 And I, when I am lifted up[g] from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” 33 He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.

Marty, there is nothing in the passage to indicate a break in the timing of Christ's birth and the war in heaven when Satan and his angels were cast to the earth.

When Christ says "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out" He was talking about Satan being cast out of those who were possessed by devils and demons through the power of His Word and Spirit. Christ had already demonstrated that He has power to cast them out, and now through His cross and resurrection judgment of the world has come. Because it is by His Word (Gospel) proclaimed in the power of the Spirit that mankind is judged in this world. The Word brings both life and death. Life to those who hear and believe, and it pronounces death for all who hear and never believe, they shall die in unbelief.

2 Corinthians 2:15-17 (KJV) For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things? For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

When the seventy were filled with joy because even the devils were driven out through Christ's name, Christ says, "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven." He had already been cast out of heaven and to the earth when Christ was born.

Luke 10:17-18 (KJV) And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

 

[grafted branch]

Sure thanks for asking I actually have a verse by verse study of revelation 12 I believe they are separate events

Revelation chapter 12:4
4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born.

We see later in verse nine that the stars which the dragon flung to the earth are the fallen angels that fell with him. We also now see that satan the red dragon is symbolized as king Herod (whose family colour was red) who tried to kill Jesus when Jesus was born.

6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

I believe the woman in the verse above to symbolize Jewish believers in Christ. After Jesus ascended back up to heaven the first Christian Jews had about 3 ½ years or 1260 days of protection which ended on the day Stephen was stoned to death


Revelation chapter 12:7-9
7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Verse 7 starts with the word “Then” which proceeds after Jesus’ ascension and the start of the 1260 days of protection of the woman. Satan was cast out of heaven by Michael through the power of Jesus

John12:31
31 Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out.


Revelation 12:13-14
13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach.

After satan was cast to the earth he again pursues the woman (Israel) but she is given two wings of an eagle and taken to the wildness for a set time of a time’ times and a half a time or 3 ½ year. Verse 14 takes us back to the time of the Exodus as Israel was taken to the wilderness by God for protection from Egypt upon eagles wings as mentioned in the verse below.

Exodus 19:4
4 ‘You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt and how I carried you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself

Revelation 12:17
17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

Verse 17 tells us that the dragon then turned his fury to the rest of the woman’s offspring (as the woman was protected for a set time) and that the woman mentioned in verses 13-16 is not the church because the rest of her offspring “the ones who hold to the testimony of Jesus is the church. I believe that this was fulfilled during the persecution by Nero on the church which lasted for 3 ½ years or 42 months and that the persecution is mentioned in the very next chapter in Revelation

Thanks for sharing your view on this, I’ve been examining a view, only examining and not convinced, that puts Revelation 12 as one event that’s described in two ways and sees this same pattern also coinciding with the Olivet Discourse. Basically this view sees Revelation 12 as a foreshadow to the events of the Olivet Discourse and that being a reason for its insertion into the book of Revelation, as Christ’s birth was not a new revelation.

 

[Timtofly]

Do you not believe saints are part of the church?

Which saints? At what time?

Some have a very limited definition of the word church. Some say the church existed under the OT Covenant. Abel was a single member of a church, because his brother broke fellowship, and eventually killed the only other church member. But would you call Abel a saint?

"By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh."

I normally use the word redeemed, because the word saint is overused and abused in common usage.

During the Millennium the church is still in Paradise. All on earth would fall under the common definition of saint. There is only one type of human on earth under the authority of Jesus Christ. Living ones. Any act of disobedience would result in immediate death and the removal of that human from society.

 

[Marty fox]

Thanks for sharing your view on this, I’ve been examining a view, only examining and not convinced, that puts Revelation 12 as one event that’s described in two ways and sees this same pattern also coinciding with the Olivet Discourse. Basically this view sees Revelation 12 as a foreshadow to the events of the Olivet Discourse and that being a reason for its insertion into the book of Revelation, as Christ’s birth was not a new revelation.

Your welcome, I believe revelation 12 is an short overview of revelation itself showing a transition from the old covenant to the new covenant from ethnic Israel to spiritual Israel

Revelation 6 lines up with Matthew 24

 

[Truthnightmare]

Revelation 16:16-21 is paralleled by Revelation 19:11-21.
Proved by Gods fierce wrath and how the mountains and islands are moved from their place, by how the attackers of Jesus are killed, but not burned or totally destroyed and the carrion animals eat them.

I see the similarities… In Revelation 17

Which saints? At what time?

Some have a very limited definition of the word church. Some say the church existed under the OT Covenant. Abel was a single member of a church, because his brother broke fellowship, and eventually killed the only other church member. But would you call Abel a saint?

"By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh."

I normally use the word redeemed, because the word saint is overused and abused in common usage.

During the Millennium the church is still in Paradise. All on earth would fall under the common definition of saint. There is only one type of human on earth under the authority of Jesus Christ. Living ones. Any act of disobedience would result in immediate death and the removal of that human from society.

Revelation 13:7
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

The church is not in paradise before the millennium.

 

[grafted branch]

Revelation 6 lines up with Matthew 24

I’ve looked at that, the thing that makes me question it is that the third seal is always associated with famine, even in many or most commentaries.

When I personally examined the third seal I came away with a fairly strong sense that it can’t be famine. I’ll make another post with what I found in case you’re interested or care to take a look.

 

[grafted branch]

The problems with a third seal famine in Revelation 6:5-6.



First off, some information on the nutritional value of wheat, barley, olive oil, and grape juice or wine (if grape juice is made into an alcoholic beverage the sugar is what is converted into alcohol). Serving size is 100 grams; all measurements are in grams except calories. Different web sites have slightly different values but they are all very close.



Nutritional value of wheat
Calories 340
Fat 2.5
Protein 13.2
Carbohydrate 72
Sugar .4



Nutritional value of barley
Calories 354
Fat 2.3
Protein 12.48
Carbohydrate 73.4
Sugar .82



Nutritional value of olive oil
Calories 881.5
Fat 103.7
Protein 0
Carbohydrate 0
Sugar 0



Nutritional value of grape juice
Calories 60
Fat .13
Protein .37
Carbohydrate 14.77
Sugar 14.2





Amount of nutrients needed per day for the average active adult male, amounts are less for women, children and inactive males.



Calories 2700
Fat 88
Protein 63
Carbohydrate 410
Sugar 37.5



I did a search for “which is more nutritious wheat or barley” and looked at foodstruct.com. This site had a very good break down of wheat vs barely. Based on 300 grams of product, vitamins and minerals are scored on how much the food fulfils a person’s daily need.



In vitamins Barley=27% Wheat=25%.
In minerals Barley=52% Wheat=67%.
In protein Barley=75% Wheat=82%.
In carbohydrates Barley=73% Wheat=71%.
In fat Barley=11% Wheat=11%.



According to many commentaries a measure of barley or wheat is about 1 quart or 907.2 grams (1 ounce = 28.35 grams). To be conservative let’s just call it 900 grams. If 1 measure is enough to feed 1 person for 1 day, as commentaries suggest, then 900 grams of barley or wheat would give an excess amount of calories, minerals, protein, and carbohydrates, but not enough vitamins, fat, or sugar. In fact 3 measures of barley (1 days wages) would be 9,558 calories, if consumed each day, a person would quickly become obese. Even eating just 1 measure of barley per day would be 3,186 calories which would still lead to obesity.



My first observation is that barley and wheat are so close to being equal nutritionally that if there was a famine and a person could purchase 3 times as much barley as they could wheat, most everyone would be purchasing barley. I am not sure why some commentaries state that barley is so much less nutritious than wheat, it’s just not true.



Second, all of the 5 basic nutritional needs can be easily obtained from grape juice and olive oil with the exception of protein (it would be physically impossible for the vast majority of people to drink nearly 5 gallons of grape juice or wine per day due to the rate at which the kidneys can process).



If, as many commentaries suggest, a penny was a day’s wages for a laborer then a laborer could purchase 2700 grams of barley per day. That’s enough protein for 5.35 days if barley was the only source of protein. If a person would drink 1 gallon of grape juice per day, they would get about 13 grams of protein. That leaves 50 grams of protein a day needed from barley; which comes out to 400 grams of barley per day. That means that a day’s wages could buy enough barley to supply 6.75 days’ worth of protein. If instead of grape juice it was alcoholic wine, a person could let the alcohol along with some of the water evaporate away so they wouldn’t become alcoholics or have to consume as much sugar or liquid. If the grape juice or wine was reduced due to evaporation it’s easy to come up with 1 days’ work supplying the 3 measures of barley needed per person for 1 week.



If a laborer had a family of 5 people, including himself, and he was the only provider then he would perhaps have to work 4 days (women and children require less food) just for the barley to feed his family. This wouldn’t include the cost of the oil and wine. If he worked 6 days a week then they would probably be just barely getting enough food, depending on the cost of oil and wine. If however the wife or children were able to glean fields, make bread to sell, or some other economic activity (Aquila and Priscilla were both tent makers Acts 18:2-3 and Lydia was a seller of purple Acts 16:14) then they could very well be able to survive in the first century. From ancientcoinsforeducation.org it’s estimated that about 50% of income was spent on food in ancient Rome, the time when Revelation was written.



The penny being a day’s wages is often referenced using Matthew 20:1-16 which is the parable of the laborers in the vineyard. The problem with some commentaries is that they assume everyone’s wage is a penny. It certainly was true in the parable that all who worked in the vineyard received a penny; but during the first century there were carpenters, scribes, physicians, and many more professions. It’s still the same today; someone who picks fruit is considered a laborer and makes some of the lowest wages.



All this assumes no other foods are available other than barley, wheat, oil, and wine. Obviously wine comes from grapes and olive oil from olives with the protein being found in their seeds. I couldn’t find any websites that had information on how much protein is in grape seeds or olive seeds, which are edible, but if these were available it’s safe to say famine is not in view.



Keeping in mind Matthew 26:11, where Jesus said for ye have the poor always with you, I can’t see the 3rd seal being a famine. Only a limited in scope famine (possibly a wheat shortage) at best can be assumed, and even that is very questionable. My conclusion is if the 3rd seal is interpreted as literal food being priced then it would appear that it’s relevant only to the poor and famine or scarcity is not in view

 

[Truthnightmare]

The problems with a third seal famine in Revelation 6:5-6.



First off, some information on the nutritional value of wheat, barley, olive oil, and grape juice or wine (if grape juice is made into an alcoholic beverage the sugar is what is converted into alcohol). Serving size is 100 grams; all measurements are in grams except calories. Different web sites have slightly different values but they are all very close.



Nutritional value of wheat
Calories 340
Fat 2.5
Protein 13.2
Carbohydrate 72
Sugar .4



Nutritional value of barley
Calories 354
Fat 2.3
Protein 12.48
Carbohydrate 73.4
Sugar .82



Nutritional value of olive oil
Calories 881.5
Fat 103.7
Protein 0
Carbohydrate 0
Sugar 0



Nutritional value of grape juice
Calories 60
Fat .13
Protein .37
Carbohydrate 14.77
Sugar 14.2





Amount of nutrients needed per day for the average active adult male, amounts are less for women, children and inactive males.



Calories 2700
Fat 88
Protein 63
Carbohydrate 410
Sugar 37.5



I did a search for “which is more nutritious wheat or barley” and looked at foodstruct.com. This site had a very good break down of wheat vs barely. Based on 300 grams of product, vitamins and minerals are scored on how much the food fulfils a person’s daily need.



In vitamins Barley=27% Wheat=25%.
In minerals Barley=52% Wheat=67%.
In protein Barley=75% Wheat=82%.
In carbohydrates Barley=73% Wheat=71%.
In fat Barley=11% Wheat=11%.



According to many commentaries a measure of barley or wheat is about 1 quart or 907.2 grams (1 ounce = 28.35 grams). To be conservative let’s just call it 900 grams. If 1 measure is enough to feed 1 person for 1 day, as commentaries suggest, then 900 grams of barley or wheat would give an excess amount of calories, minerals, protein, and carbohydrates, but not enough vitamins, fat, or sugar. In fact 3 measures of barley (1 days wages) would be 9,558 calories, if consumed each day, a person would quickly become obese. Even eating just 1 measure of barley per day would be 3,186 calories which would still lead to obesity.



My first observation is that barley and wheat are so close to being equal nutritionally that if there was a famine and a person could purchase 3 times as much barley as they could wheat, most everyone would be purchasing barley. I am not sure why some commentaries state that barley is so much less nutritious than wheat, it’s just not true.



Second, all of the 5 basic nutritional needs can be easily obtained from grape juice and olive oil with the exception of protein (it would be physically impossible for the vast majority of people to drink nearly 5 gallons of grape juice or wine per day due to the rate at which the kidneys can process).



If, as many commentaries suggest, a penny was a day’s wages for a laborer then a laborer could purchase 2700 grams of barley per day. That’s enough protein for 5.35 days if barley was the only source of protein. If a person would drink 1 gallon of grape juice per day, they would get about 13 grams of protein. That leaves 50 grams of protein a day needed from barley; which comes out to 400 grams of barley per day. That means that a day’s wages could buy enough barley to supply 6.75 days’ worth of protein. If instead of grape juice it was alcoholic wine, a person could let the alcohol along with some of the water evaporate away so they wouldn’t become alcoholics or have to consume as much sugar or liquid. If the grape juice or wine was reduced due to evaporation it’s easy to come up with 1 days’ work supplying the 3 measures of barley needed per person for 1 week.



If a laborer had a family of 5 people, including himself, and he was the only provider then he would perhaps have to work 4 days (women and children require less food) just for the barley to feed his family. This wouldn’t include the cost of the oil and wine. If he worked 6 days a week then they would probably be just barely getting enough food, depending on the cost of oil and wine. If however the wife or children were able to glean fields, make bread to sell, or some other economic activity (Aquila and Priscilla were both tent makers Acts 18:2-3 and Lydia was a seller of purple Acts 16:14) then they could very well be able to survive in the first century. From ancientcoinsforeducation.org it’s estimated that about 50% of income was spent on food in ancient Rome, the time when Revelation was written.



The penny being a day’s wages is often referenced using Matthew 20:1-16 which is the parable of the laborers in the vineyard. The problem with some commentaries is that they assume everyone’s wage is a penny. It certainly was true in the parable that all who worked in the vineyard received a penny; but during the first century there were carpenters, scribes, physicians, and many more professions. It’s still the same today; someone who picks fruit is considered a laborer and makes some of the lowest wages.



All this assumes no other foods are available other than barley, wheat, oil, and wine. Obviously wine comes from grapes and olive oil from olives with the protein being found in their seeds. I couldn’t find any websites that had information on how much protein is in grape seeds or olive seeds, which are edible, but if these were available it’s safe to say famine is not in view.



Keeping in mind Matthew 26:11, where Jesus said for ye have the poor always with you, I can’t see the 3rd seal being a famine. Only a limited in scope famine (possibly a wheat shortage) at best can be assumed, and even that is very questionable. My conclusion is if the 3rd seal is interpreted as literal food being priced then it would appear that it’s relevant only to the poor and famine or scarcity is not in view

Amos 8:11
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

 

[grafted branch]

Amos 8:11
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

Sounds good, how is a famine of hearing then associated with wheat and barley? Wheat represents believers in the scriptures and being weighed in the balance is seen in Daniel 5:27.

 

[Marty fox]

Marty, there is nothing in the passage to indicate a break in the timing of Christ's birth and the war in heaven when Satan and his angels were cast to the earth.

When Christ says "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out" He was talking about Satan being cast out of those who were possessed by devils and demons through the power of His Word and Spirit. Christ had already demonstrated that He has power to cast them out, and now through His cross and resurrection judgment of the world has come. Because it is by His Word (Gospel) proclaimed in the power of the Spirit that mankind is judged in this world. The Word brings both life and death. Life to those who hear and believe, and it pronounces death for all who hear and never believe, they shall die in unbelief.

2 Corinthians 2:15-17 (KJV) For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things? For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

When the seventy were filled with joy because even the devils were driven out through Christ's name, Christ says, "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven." He had already been cast out of heaven and to the earth when Christ was born.

Luke 10:17-18 (KJV) And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven

Marty, there is nothing in the passage to indicate a break in the timing of Christ's birth and the war in heaven when Satan and his angels were cast to the earth.

When Christ says "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out" He was talking about Satan being cast out of those who were possessed by devils and demons through the power of His Word and Spirit. Christ had already demonstrated that He has power to cast them out, and now through His cross and resurrection judgment of the world has come. Because it is by His Word (Gospel) proclaimed in the power of the Spirit that mankind is judged in this world. The Word brings both life and death. Life to those who hear and believe, and it pronounces death for all who hear and never believe, they shall die in unbelief.

2 Corinthians 2:15-17 (KJV) For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things? For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

When the seventy were filled with joy because even the devils were driven out through Christ's name, Christ says, "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven." He had already been cast out of heaven and to the earth when Christ was born.

Luke 10:17-18 (KJV) And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Yes there is when the text says Jesus was taken up to heaven and His throne. You can have a different interpretation of the text but you can’t say that there is nothing in the text indicate it.

Yes I agree of course Jesus had power to cast out demons before the cross I just believe that they were cast out of heaven after the cross.

Its okay actually because I believe we have the same views in most cases in the bible and it’s none esent doctrine

 

[Marty fox]

I’ve looked at that, the thing that makes me question it is that the third seal is always associated with famine, even in many or most commentaries.

When I personally examined the third seal I came away with a fairly strong sense that it can’t be famine. I’ll make another post with what I found in case you’re interested or care to take a look.

I believe that it was famine the Jews were arrogant and burned their own food stock during the Roman siege to show the Roman’s that they weren’t afraid of them because God would save them.