How long O Lord

[Davidpt]

Exactly, they didn’t know the answer when they asked, that’s why that question had to have been asked prior to the writing of Revelation or possibly just shortly after but certainly not in our future.

Using logic like you are using would be like saying since Revelation 20 already records satan getting cast into the LOF, this can't happen in the future since John already saw this happen in the past during these visions.

Take the following, for example.

Ezekiel 39:8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.


If this is still in the future like some of us tend to believe, the fact God is already on record saying Behold, it is come, and it is done, this is the day whereof I have spoken, and if applying your logic to this, that when that day actually arrives though, He can't say what He said here because He already said it before it even comes to pass.

Regardless when Ezekiel 39:8 is meaning, it was obviously still in the future when God initially said that through Ezekiel. Where I tend to think the following is when God actually says this in the future.

Revelation 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD----and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. IOW, one day in the future though it is already recorded that God from the throne, saying, It is done, He is actually going to say that at the time, otherwise we were lied to here.

 

[grafted branch]

Using logic like you are using would be like saying since Revelation 20 already records satan getting cast into the LOF, this can't happen in the future since John already saw this happen in the past during these visions.

Take the following, for example.

Ezekiel 39:8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.


If this is still in the future like some of us tend to believe, the fact God is already on record saying Behold, it is come, and it is done, this is the day whereof I have spoken, and if applying your logic to this, that when that day actually arrives though, He can't say what He said here because He already said it before it even comes to pass.

Regardless when Ezekiel 39:8 is meaning, it was obviously still in the future when God initially said that through Ezekiel. Where I tend to think the following is when God actually says this in the future.

Revelation 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD----and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. IOW, one day in the future though it is already recorded that God from the throne, saying, It is done, He is actually going to say that at the time, otherwise we were lied to here.

The logic only applies to our foreknowledge. For example, we know Christ will return someday, we have this foreknowledge because we have read about it in the Bible. We’re not asking God if Jesus will return or not because we have foreknowledge about this event, it is certain.

We have the foreknowledge of the various events that happen in the book of Revelation. Example in Revelation 14:3 they (144,000) sing a new song before the throne. There is no issue with a passage like this being future as it is common to sing songs and have the foreknowledge of what song you’re going to sing.

What’s not normal is to have the foreknowledge of the answer to a question you haven’t asked yet. Having this kind of foreknowledge means you don’t have to ask the question in the first place.



Another area where futurist have problems is that Satan himself has all the foreknowledge of events in Revelation also, which means Satan can’t have free will or he only has limited freedom. For example if Satan wanted to make God a liar all he would have to do is not give his power, seat, and authority to the beast in Revelation 13:2. Making God a liar would do far more damage than anything the beast could ever do.

 

[ScottA]

Brethren in Christ Jesus:

Note in my previous post I remarked that ALL... of the Revelation SEALS are for the very end of this world. How is that, you might ask? It's very simple...

ALL... of the Rev.6 SEALS are in parallel with the main SIGNS of the end that Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse of Matthew 24 and Mark 13.

If you do a search on this forum of my content, you will discover a post where I covered those parallels between Christ's Olivet discourse and the SEALS of Rev.6. Lord Jesus' Olivet discourse is about the SIGNS of the end He gave to His Church leading up to His future return on the last day of this world. He pointed to the last generation being the one that will 'see' all those SIGNS of the end He gave.

What proves... ALL... of those SEALS are for the end is when Jesus commanded His servants to learn a parable of the fig tree. Jesus pointed to the 'generation' that will SEE ALL THESE THINGS, meaning ALL the SIGNS of the end He gave in His Olivet discourse, including the FINAL SIGN He gave.

What was Jesus' FINAL SIGN He gave in His Olivet discourse that aligns with the Rev.6 SEALS? That final SIGN of the end He gave is that of His future return and gathering of His saints, His Church. (See Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27; Rev.6:14-17).

...Would that be the end [from the beginning]...or the end at the end? ;)

 

[Randy Kluth]

Well, what I’m saying is everybody who has read Revelation 6 knows the answer to the question asked by the souls under the altar. Knowing this information negates the necessity to ask the question. This fact alone makes it unlikely that it can a future event.

I’m willing to listen to reasonable arguments, why would someone in the future who finds themselves under the altar ask the question when they already know the answer?

I'm sorry--I guess I just don't relate to the argument. The people under the altar may be those who die under persecution, and perhaps those who die under Antichrist's reign.

In dying unfairly they would obviously want to speed along the process of obtaining their vindication. It may be more of an emotional appeal than a request for an exact timetable? The best I can do with it....

 

[grafted branch]

I'm sorry--I guess I just don't relate to the argument. The people under the altar may be those who die under persecution, and perhaps those who die under Antichrist's reign.

In dying unfairly they would obviously want to speed along the process of obtaining their vindication. It may be more of an emotional appeal than a request for an exact timetable? The best I can do with it....

Fair enough, I personally don’t ask for vindication, when I’m wronged I look at it as an opportunity for me to express attributes such as mercy, forgiveness, forbearance and so on.

Those who were under the law in the old covenant had every right and reason to expect their blood to be avenged. I don’t think that’s true under the new covenant though.

 

[Keraz]

So you are saying the first four seals have already been opened and are now history. Would you care to compare your historical points so we can compare the prophecies with your historical fulfilments.

If I listed all the terrible wars, the shocking famines, the horrible plagues and the disastrous economic failures, since 30 AD, they would fill a large book. Also it is discernible that those events have increased in number and intensity over the last hundred years or so.
They constitute the birth pangs of the new age.

So you think Stephen did a complete 180 and decided to go ahead and lay that sin to their charge? Or maybe Stephen’s prayer didn’t availeth much?

God is the Judge, Stephen is dead and will not be raised until the GWT Judgment after the Millennium. His Name will be found in the Book of Life.

 

[grafted branch]

God is the Judge, Stephen is dead and will not be raised until the GWT Judgment after the Millennium. His Name will be found in the Book of Life.

Right, God is the judge, although He has given judgement to the Son. At least we agree on the basic timing of when the fifth seal occurs.

I’m surprised that so far no one has brought up Luke 18:1-8 as this gets cross referenced to those asking to be avenged.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

If I listed all the terrible wars, the shocking famines, the horrible plagues and the disastrous economic failures, since 30 AD, they would fill a large book. Also it is discernible that those events have increased in number and intensity over the last hundred years or so.
They constitute the birth pangs of the new age.

Well these are all things that come to pass, but as jesus said the end is not yet. And they constitute the birth pangs of the 7 year tribulation if we keep the Words of Jesus in the context which He spoke them in.

But what does this have to do with the your declaring the first four seals being fulfilled?????????????

 

[Davidpt]

Another area where futurist have problems is that Satan himself has all the foreknowledge of events in Revelation also, which means Satan can’t have free will or he only has limited freedom. For example if Satan wanted to make God a liar all he would have to do is not give his power, seat, and authority to the beast in Revelation 13:2. Making God a liar would do far more damage than anything the beast could ever do.

I hear you. Things like that have crossed my mind as well. Though, I believe in free will, apparently in regards to some, they don't seem to possess free will. Because, like you pointed out, the fact satan can read the Scriptures too, all he would have to do is refuse to do something that Scriptures say he will do, thus making the prophecies about him false rather than true. Why he doesn't do that, I don't know? Maybe because he can't even if he wanted to? As in, God just won't allow him to.

 

[Keraz]

But what does this have to do with the your declaring the first four seals being fulfilled?????????????

Those seals were opened by Jesus at His Ascension. We have experienced their effects, still ongoing.
It is the Sixth Seal that will be opened soon, to commence all the end time prophesied things, up to the glorious Return.

 

[Davy]

Nothing cleaver here and I’m not hiding anything, it’s just that it makes absolutely no sense, and I mean common sense, to ask a question that you obviously know the answer to. Again do you go around asking people how many hours are in a day?

Much of The Word of God must make "no sense" to you... since you can't even understand the simplicity of that written Scripture of the 5th Seal of Rev.6.

 

[Timtofly]

We’re not asking God if Jesus will return or not because we have foreknowledge about this event, it is certain.

We can ask when. They still had to rest. The "when for how long" was never given.

"How long" is the same as asking "when". A "little season" would be a very long time, if the question was asked 1950 years ago. Many having been waiting for 1900 years. Most have been waiting for a thousand years. The majority will still wait for a little season when they ask.

 

[Truthnightmare]

Those seals were opened by Jesus at His Ascension. We have experienced their effects, still ongoing.
It is the Sixth Seal that will be opened soon, to commence all the end time prophesied things, up to the glorious Return.

How do you connect the trumps and vials?

 

[Timtofly]

Fair enough, I personally don’t ask for vindication, when I’m wronged I look at it as an opportunity for me to express attributes such as mercy, forgiveness, forbearance and so on.

Those who were under the law in the old covenant had every right and reason to expect their blood to be avenged. I don’t think that’s true under the new covenant though.

This scene is most definitely NOT about being "under the Law". The scene was about The Lamb slain from the foundation of the earth, and God's eternal alter. Why would the law of Mt. Sinia even appear in heaven? That law is about sin and death. Those in the OT had to wait in Abraham's bosom, a part of sheol, until the Cross.

Those under the alter are the entire group of redeemed souls. They are all who are covered by the blood of the Lamb. In Christ, all are slain on that alter. The vengeance is against sin and death and human disobedience that causes sin and death.

Those on the earth at that point represent those who reject the Gospel and signify death and disobedience. Many may eventually receive the mark and that vengeance of God's wrath will be poured out on those left. But many on earth still need to be removed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Those are the sheep and wheat of the final harvest that is about to commence on the earth, by Jesus and the angels.

If you are part of the church and bride of Christ you will be there at the moment this question is asked, and you will be asking it along with every other soul. You still won't know the answer, because you will have to wait until the 7th Trumpet sounds to get the answer. You just know the end result, not the "how long".

And there are still souls to be redeemed, because they have to wait for the rest. But this question is asked at the Second Coming, and not another time in history. The winepress of God's wrath is the final judgment of vengeance. The question will be irrelevant at that point. And that question is an ongoing question, and being told to wait is a single point in time. I still don't see what answer you think is given that knowing points to the past. No one has ever known how long. We are still reading the same account that has been future since the letters were delivered to the 7 churches. The question was always asked in the future. The question can only be answered when the entire church is present in heaven and accounted for. The 5th Seal is the church putting on the robe of white and glorified.

 

[Truthnightmare]

This scene is most definitely NOT about being "under the Law". The scene was about The Lamb slain from the foundation of the earth, and God's eternal alter. Why would the law of Mt. Sinia even appear in heaven? That law is about sin and death. Those in the OT had to wait in Abraham's bosom, a part of sheol, until the Cross.

Those under the alter are the entire group of redeemed souls. They are all who are covered by the blood of the Lamb. In Christ, all are slain on that alter. The vengeance is against sin and death and human disobedience that causes sin and death.

Those on the earth at that point represent those who reject the Gospel and signify death and disobedience. Many may eventually receive the mark and that vengeance of God's wrath will be poured out on those left. But many on earth still need to be removed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Those are the sheep and wheat of the final harvest that is about to commence on the earth, by Jesus and the angels.

If you are part of the church and bride of Christ you will be there at the moment this question is asked, and you will be asking it along with every other soul. You still won't know the answer, because you will have to wait until the 7th Trumpet sounds to get the answer. You just know the end result, not the "how long".

And there are still souls to be redeemed, because they have to wait for the rest. But this question is asked at the Second Coming, and not another time in history. The winepress of God's wrath is the final judgment of vengeance. The question will be irrelevant at that point. And that question is an ongoing question, and being told to wait is a single point in time. I still don't see what answer you think is given that knowing points to the past. No one has ever known how long. We are still reading the same account that has been future since the letters were delivered to the 7 churches. The question was always asked in the future. The question can only be answered when the entire church is present in heaven and accounted for. The 5th Seal is the church putting on the robe of white and glorified.

If you are part of the church and bride of Christ you will be there at the moment this question is asked, and you will be asking it along with every other soul.

Do you not believe saints are part of the church?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Fair enough, I personally don’t ask for vindication, when I’m wronged I look at it as an opportunity for me to express attributes such as mercy, forgiveness, forbearance and so on.

Those who were under the law in the old covenant had every right and reason to expect their blood to be avenged. I don’t think that’s true under the new covenant though.

I respect your position, but can't say that God changed from OT to NT. If God acted with vengeance in the OT era, He is still doing it in the NT era--we may simply be not recognizing it in history.

Keep in mind that OT history gives us an insight, through the Scriptures, into the mind of God. We do not have the Scriptures to explain current history, because the parties involve extend well beyond a single nation.

We simply have to draw upon our knowledge of God in the OT Scriptures to pinpoint what He is doing today, in the NT period. Just my opinion....

 

[Davy]

We can ask when. They still had to rest. The "when for how long" was never given.

"How long" is the same as asking "when". A "little season" would be a very long time, if the question was asked 1950 years ago. Many having been waiting for 1900 years. Most have been waiting for a thousand years. The majority will still wait for a little season when they ask.

Which argument is still not really what that 5th Seal response in Rev.6:11 is about.

What we are to grasp from The LORD's answer in that 11th verse is about the delivering up of some of His servants at the very end of this world, to give a Testimony for Him, and they are killed for that Testimony. Jesus gave details of that event for the end of this world elsewhere, so that 11th verse subject should NOT be ISOLATED like you guys here are trying to do. You'll never understand it with thinking to isolate it.

As a matter of fact, I see many brethren here go into 'tunnel vision' mode when trying to understand a Bible Scripture. Thinking to isolate a verse off by itself, taking it out of the context of the Chapter flow, etc., is not the way to understand God's Word. God has given two or more witnesses in Scripture of a matter, so find those other Bible witnesses of the event in question.

 

[Keraz]

How do you connect the trumps and vials?

Sequential.
All of the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls, will take place during the last 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns. He Returns at the Seventh Bowl. Rev 16:16-17

 

[quietthinker]

In Revelation 6:9-11 the souls under the altar ask the question of how long dost thou not judge them that dwell on the earth. The answer is given in vs 11 that they should rest a little season until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that they should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Currently everyone who has read Revelation 6 knows the answer to the question, and since we all have this knowledge (or foreknowledge, depending on when someone thinks this takes place) there is no need to ask this question again, now or in the future, because the answer will not change. Actually asking the Lord this question would show a lack of faith if someone thought a different answer might be possible.

So here’s a question for those who think the fifth seal in Revelation 6:9-11 is a still future event, why are they asking this question in the first place when they already know the answer?

They ask because they assume that being avenged in the human understanding of being avenged, is what God will do and is holding out on. The fact is, God is not like how they imagined him to be. Their misunderstanding of God's Character has them asking the wrong question.
Nevertheless God does not hold their misunderstanding against them and asks them to be patient and gives them white robes. White Robes symbolise no guilt, no condemnation from God, even while they want to be avenged ie, they are held guiltless but want their fellow sinners to be punished.

Many of God's children have a faulty conception of the grace, the mercy, the long-suffering, the tenderness God has toward his erring children.....and we are all his children, God gives life and breath to all in the hope they will abandon their false conceptions of him......and a false conception of God means they have a false conception of their fellow man.

 

[Truthnightmare]

Sequential.
All of the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls, will take place during the last 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns. He Returns at the Seventh Bowl. Rev 16:16-17

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great. KJV

I’m not seeing the return of Christ here, it seems He returns after these things.