Yeah, I started the discussion. I expect to find either agreement or disagreement. Isn't that the purpose of discussion?
Abiding In Christ Necessary for Eternal Life
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Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
You want us to quote you. Yet you have not once looked at the passage with us and shown where we are wrong. All you do is keep pushing your own interpretation and bring other passages up
don‘t scream at people to quote you when you will not even discuss the passages they bring up. It makes you a hypocrite when you demand people do what you will not do yourself
Yep, and after salvation if you live sinfully you don't inherit God's Kingdom but fall under God's wrath and forfeit the Promise (1 Co 9:26-1 Co 10).
Incorrect, I literally just AGREED with you on the passage you cited, that we HAVE eternal life, but added that I ALSO believe other passages on the topic--that we are told we will be repaid with eternal life, that we will harvest eternal life, if we do good.
Why would I dissect the passage you cited when I agree with you?
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Take me to the passage and show me where I was wrong.
thats how discussion works.
taking me to another passage does not help you. It just shows you do not want to look at the passage being shown.
Can God contradict himself? Thats the issue here..
I already agreed with you on your passage, so there's no need to tell you why I think you're wrong, but I said I ALSO agree with other passages that say we will be repaid eternal life, or harvest eternal life, if we do good deeds, and I quoted the passages (Ro 2:6-16; Gal 6:6-10).
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
That's your eisegesis. A prize is not a gift (disqualified for the prize - 1 Corinthians 9:27) and God delivered the Israelites out of Egypt but later destroyed those who did not believe. (Jude 1:5) It's the unrighteous (and not the righteous) who will not inherit God's Kingdom. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11) No one who is born of God practices sin.. (1 John 3:9)
No, God doesn't contradict Himself, they're both true. He has given us the gift of eternal life, so we have it, and we retain it by remaining in Christ by obeying Christ's commands (believe on the Name of God's Son and love one another).
Again, according to you, then, we would have to read the immorality and idolatry mentioned in 1 Co 10 as having no effect upon salvation, but we read in 1 Co 6 that the immoral and idolatrous have no inheritance in God's Kingdom, so, no, that isn't a sound exegesis.
Also, the "wreath' Paul wanted to win is a "crown" that is "imperishable"--the "crown of life", without which, you're dead, so, yes, it is an issue of eternal life. Death first came through sin. Righteousness leads to life. This is why the crown of life is also called the crown of righteousness. Righteousness results in life. Righteousness is an issue of eternal life, and that is precisely the topic Paul is touching on (his making his body into his slave--otherwise your body makes you into its slave, which is called "sin", so the discussion is about righteousness).
Nothing of what you say makes any sense.
Ritajanice
Born-Again
A Born Again is not under God’s wrath.
MADE US ALIVE WITH CHRIST!
(Colossians 2:6–23) 1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, fulfilling the cravings of our flesh and indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath. 4But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life.a One in Christ (Philippians 2:1–4) 11Therefore remember that formerly you who are Gentiles in the flesh and called uncircumcised by the so-called circumcision (that done in the body by human hands)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ. 14For He Himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has torn down the dividing wall of hostility 15by abolishing in His flesh the law of commandments and decrees. He did this to create in Himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace 16and reconciling both of them to God in one body through the cross, by which He extinguished their hostility. 17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18For through Him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. Christ Our Cornerstone (Isaiah 28:14–22; 1 Corinthians 3:10–15; 1 Peter 2:1–8) 19Therefore you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of God’s household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the cornerstone. 21In Him the whole building is fitted together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord.22And in Him you too are being built together into a dwelling place for God in His Spirit. |
MADE US ALIVE WITH CHRIST!
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
You still do not get it
Go to John 4.
Jesus said you must be born again.. I do not know your belief on this
He said the way we are born again is to have faith in him, if we do this, we will never die.. According to you. we can still die
He also said we will live forever - (have eternal life) you say we are not assured we will live forever. we must work to maintain it.. so in essence it would be conditional life.
You need to explain why Jesus lied.. or why he contradicted himself.
All you do is say yes but...
There is no but, Either Jesus lied, or he contradicts himself. there is no third option
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Amen
BY GRACE through faith not works.
how can that turn to By Grace through faith plus works..
another contradiction
Paul often refers to faith as a race. If Paul is "disqualified" from the "race" of faith, it means he's in "unbelief", and he's "cut off" (Ro 11:17-23)!
Yes, we must be born again. So?
God has already set the precedent that He has disinherited His children before (Dt 32:5; Hos 1).
Christ says we must abide. We've discussed this before. It isn't just believing one time. It's maintaining belief, and it's maintaining loving others--that is how we "abide".
The eternal life is indeed eternal, the issue is that it is "in His Son" (1 Jn 5:11)--those who abide in Him continue receiving the Spirit that is only in Him, those who do not get cut off and thrown in the fire.
If you don't do works of faith, if you do what you doubt, you are "condemned", not justified (Ro 14:5,23), because "God's righteousness" is only "revealed from faith to faith" (Ro 1:5,16,17). This is why James says Abraham was "justified by works [of faith]".
A good half of Romans is Paul speaking about Israel.
Romans 11
New American Standard Bible
Israel Has Not Been Rejected
11 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? [a]Far from it! For I too am an Israelite, [b]a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets, they have torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life.” 4 But what [c]is the divine response to him? “I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s [d]gracious choice. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer [e]on the basis of works, since otherwise grace is no longer grace.7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but [f]those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; 8 just as it is written:
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes to see not and ears to hear not,
Down to this very day.”
9 And David says,
“May their table become a snare and a trap,
And a stumbling block and a retribution to them.
10 May their eyes be darkened to see not,
And bend their backs continually.”
11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? [g]Far from it! But by their wrongdoing salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12 Now if their wrongdoing proves to be riches for the world, and their failure, riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their [h]fulfillment be! 13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Therefore insofar as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 if somehow I may move my [i]own people to jealousy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection proves to be the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are as well.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the [j]rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 See then the kindness and severity of God: to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; for otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not want you, brothers and sisters, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
27 “This is [k]My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
28 In relation to the gospel they are enemies on your account, but in relation to God’s choice they are beloved on account of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience, so that He may show mercy to all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches, [l]both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34 For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? 35 Or who has first given to Him, [m]that it would be paid back to him? 36 For from Him, and through Him, and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory [n]forever. Amen.
The whole material nation was cut off from having killed the Son of God, and it is justifiable that God had this done, because it was a promise that would come to them, (the great and dreadful day of the LORD mentioned in Malachi.) Though there would a Remnant, by what course? Spiritual heavenly Kingdom Jerusalem, the mother of us all. those of faith, where the material nation would be destroyed to the ground. Romans 11 is about the closing up from Romans 9 - 11.
Yes, and Israel had a dynamic that people could be "cut off from among their people" for certain sins that is still at play today--here, we see that people are "grafted in" by "faith", and "cut off" for "unbelief", so if Paul is "disqualified" from the "race" of "faith", then he is in "unbelief", and is "cut off" and under "severity" not "kindness".
Romans 14
New American Standard Bible
Principles of Conscience
14 Now accept the one who is weak [a]in faith, but not [b]to have quarrels over opinions. 2 One person has faith that he may eat all things, but the one who is weak eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him. 4 Who are you to judge the [c]servant of another? To his own [d]master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.5 One person [e]values one day over another, another [f]values every day the same. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 The one who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and the one who eats, [g]does so with regard to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and the one who does not eat, it is for the Lord that he does not eat, and he gives thanks to God. 7 For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself; 8 for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
10 But as for you, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or you as well, why do you regard your brother or sister with contempt? For we will all appear before the judgment seat of God. 11 For it is written:
“As I live, says the Lord, to Me every knee will bow,
And every tongue will [h]give praise to God.”
12 So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.
13 Therefore let’s not judge one another anymore, but rather [i]determine this: not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother’s or sister’s way. 14 I know and am convinced [j]in the Lord Jesus that nothing is [k]unclean in itself; but to the one who thinks something is [l]unclean, to that person it is [m]unclean. 15 For if because of food your brother or sister is hurt, you are no longer walking in accordance with love. Do not destroy with your choice of food that person for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be [n]spoken of as evil; 17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 For the one who serves Christ in this way is acceptable to God and approved by other people. 19 So then we pursue the things [o]which make for peace and the building up of one another. 20 Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the person who eats [p]and causes offense. 21 It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother or sister stumbles. 22 The faith which you have, have [q]as your own conviction before God. Happy is the one who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But the one who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.
There is a whole lot in this chapter that is being missed.
Remember what Jesus said to those people who were the religious leaders in that day?
Matthew 15:8
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
There was a severity, that the people were under... it was God's wrath that would be poured out among them which they were warned about, from even John the baptist.
Matthew 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
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