Perhaps, so, @CadyandZoe. There are those who go so far as sola scriptura. I don't subscribe to that type of thinking personally and reject the notion all together as it is impossible for it to constantly hold water, without some spilling out.
Bibliolatry: Worship/knowledge of the book MORE than the author
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CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
@MatthewG I don't mean to make you sad. I fully understand the American proverb "A man has the right to believe or say whatever he wants to believe or say." I get it and I agree with it to a point. But in today's America, I fear that the proverb is quoted loudest by those who do not acknowledge the concept of objective truth.
I know that you are a believer and acknowledge the concept of objective truth. I simply want to encourage us all, me included, to make sure that we be clear about what we mean when we say, "You have a right to your own opinion." Legally speaking, that is correct. But rationally speaking, all of those who love the truth want to be corrected when in error and appreciate it when someone takes the time to explain things to us.
Carry on the good work brother.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I agree to a point. We tend to get tripped up by the slogans we inherited from the Reformation. Some of us use the slogan without knowing the context or the historical debate from which the slogan should be understood.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
With all due respect, we fundamentally disagree. I already expressed how I suffered from Bible Idolatry, specifically idolatry of a translation, for decades.
Again, we fundamentally disagree. The 1C is not "you shall have no other gods before the Bible."
Showing you are guilty of Bible Idolatry. The Bible is manmade. It's just a collection of writings from men. Every religion has holy book. Having a holy book is not what separates Christianity from other religions. It's that we have a relationship with the living God.
No. This is not an idol. An idol is anything manmade that displaces god as something people worship in practice. Of course people do not say this is what they are doing. It's what they do, nonetheless. Common IDOLS today include sex, money and power. From Definition of IDOL
idol
noun
ˈī-dᵊlSynonyms of idol
1
: an object of extreme devotion
a movie idol
also : IDEAL sense 2
2
: a representation or symbol of an object of worship
broadly : a false god
3
a
: a likeness of something
b
obsolete : PRETENDER, IMPOSTOR
4
: a false conception : FALLACY
5
: a form or appearance visible but without substance
IDOLATRY is pervasive in Christianity today. Most Christians idolize their doctrines.
Here is where IDOLATRY is so dangerous. It's not that people say they are worshiping or saved by an IDOL. It's that they act that way. It's the practice that is why prohibiting it is the 2C.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
I am not confusing IDOLATRY with pride or false loyalty. Consider an extrapolation from what you wrote.
^ This is IDOLATRY 101 plain and simple. (And I pray this does not offend you, for you are a sibling of mine in being children of God).
Pervasive in Christendom is the assertion that people are not even Christians, not true Christians IF they fail to meet a standard of IDOLATRY.
Because you define IDOLATRY incorrectly, you don't even realize you are doing it. To know is to point to a verse where Christ ever stipulated such a condition? I am curious what you discover and report back.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
You got us all wrong. We are not doubting the reliability of the written word. Writing is a tool and like all tools, it can be misused and abused.
the Bible should be used to enlighten, not to bludgeon.
Ill share with you CadyandZoe,
I love the bible and find it a wonderful and an absolutely wonderful and great gift that Yahava, or Yahweh or the LORD has given to all who are able to pick it up, look at it and read it. While it may not seem that idols exist like in the times of when Israel worshiped Idols like baal and others, they are very much alive today. It can be of the bible, for an example. People are called to worship God, in spirit and truth, he seeks for people who do such. That would mean to never place anything above the one who gives life every single day. The one whom by speaking created all things, and complied them into existance, separating first, the light from the darkness when he first said "Let there be light, and there was light."
People can worship phones, they can worship ideals, ideologies, certain things which brings them some type of comfort however not comfort which looking in faith to the Father, the one in Heaven, and seeking after him, and he writes his laws on the hearts and minds of those who are his. That means anyone is able to have access to God, who adopts those who are his by the spirit and become children of God, and then grow to become mature in spirit, becoming sons and daughters of Gods as they go along in this life, following the Lord Yeshua and believing in him who was sent by God which is the work of God, in which in turns helps lead to a new heart, and a new spiritual birth, and now becoming spiritually live with the faith in believing they are given the holy spirit to live by and also abide in Christ, where the Christ of the Lord Yeshua's Spirit (Spirit of Christ Gal 2:20), now lives in and through you by your flesh and all the good things which come from you are from him and therefore grace, and thankfulness is to be given in glory of Yahava, who sent the Son of God, who was the Son of Man, and named Immanuel.
What is not good is to use the bible for dogmatic ways and stances or causing burdens or more pressures on people. There is only truth that can be given hopefully by the spirit when it calls for one seeking and searching for God and making time to read and also have relationship with the Father, and fellowship with him and the Son. It's not good to do evil on other people, nor place hard burderns on people, you can share things of what one knows by the bible that is fine, however to be a bigot or hate other people deem them of the devil, reject them for differences, and not love them as a human even though they may have strange ideas, God does love them, and you can always ask if they would ever like to read or listen to the bible be read you could spend time with someone else who is interested in sharing the word of God also with you and share along with you too. The bible is wonderful, but anything can be an idol, men or women can be an idol for someone. There wife or their children could be an idol to them. Or their inanimate objects or anything that becomes more of your time than spending some good devout time to looking at God and allowing him to renew ones heart and mind as they look, read and enjoy the good and awesome truths found in the bible as well. It's so important to me, as a person personally.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
ANYONE WHO LOVETH GOD WOULD HAVE LOVED HIS WORDS.
and just cause fake folks can APPEAR to grab hold on the bible , REST ASSURED they do not love it or the whole truth in it .
THEY JUST go with the flow of their leaders and feelings and pick and choose what PARTS TO HOLD TOO .
and even those parts THEY DO NOT HOLD TOO .
BIBLE TIME BUDDY . Stop hating GOD and HIS WORDS . LOVE and embrace them .
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amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS BIBLE IDOLARTY . Say that five thousand times
THERE IS ONLY THIS . IDOLIZING what men have tried to say it means or implies . GO AND LEARN QUCKLY what that means .
BUT as for idolizing the BIBLE ITSELF . THERE IS NO SUCH THING . PEROID . ANDI MEAN PEROID .
THERE IS ONLY the IDOLIZING of what perhaps WE THINK something in it means or what our leaders SAY IT MEANT .
GO quickly now and learn rather fast what that means . IN THE MEAN TIME GET DUG IN THE BIBLE and GET WELL DUG IN THE BIBLE .
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Wouldn't you say you had an excessive admiration or devotion to the KJV? That isn't what the Bible means by "idolatry." I can't believe that you propped up your Bible on a table, knelt down, and worshipped it as your God. I doubt you believed that your KJV would protect and provide for you. I doubt you made petitions and prayers to your Bible.
Look, I understand that some people have a very strong admiration and devotion to the KJV. And I have talked with many of them online. Most everyone I encountered had good reasons for being devoted to the KJV.
- It is a family tradition.
- It is the translation their church uses.
- King James English is associated with holiness.
- One was taught the gospel from the KJV.
I never once questioned their reasons. I simply pointed out that languages, even English, change over time. A particular word in KJV English might have the opposite meaning today. (For instance, the word "let" used to mean "forbid", today it means "allow.") And due to Biblical archeology, some mistranslations in the KJV needed correction. Thus the NKJV.
I doubt you idolized your Bible in the sense that Jesus and the apostles understood the concept of idolatry. Don't confuse preference with deference.
I maintain that Bibliolatry is a term invented by the enemies of the Bible in order to distance themselves from those who believe what the Bible says. Though you had a strong preference for the KJV you did not "worship" your Bible. Since you preferred the KJV, you obviously knew and worshipped the one true God.
Without the Bible, how did you become aware of the 1C?
Those who de-emphasize the Bible are those who don't care what the Bible says.
Those who de-emphasize the Bible are those who care more about abstract principles such as "love", and "brotherhood" than The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Those who de-emphasize the Bible are those who want you to believe that Jesus was a social-justice warrior.
Why de-emphasize the Bible? Why not elevate God up to where he belongs? You can do that without de-emphasizing the Bible. Right?
If that is what you truly think, then it isn't any wonder why you are not concerned with de-emphasis. But I don't think you actually believe what you say you believe in this regard. We both worship Jesus Christ and our Lord and Savior said, "the scripture can't be broken." Since I worship, adore and give great deference to Jesus Christ my Lord, then I agree with him that the scriptures can't be broken.
Also, Peter is an apostle of Jesus Christ and Peter referred to Paul's writings as scripture. 2 Peter 3:16
Finally, my confession that the Bible is inspired by God doesn't support your charge that I am idolizing the Bible.
I respectfully disagree. People don't worship the manmade object itself. They might bow down before the object of worship, but only in so far as the object represents a being with supernatural powers able to grant the desires and wishes of the worshipper.
Consider Paul's exhortation to the Corinthian church quoted below. Take note of Paul's concern with demons, which he says is the actual object of worship. While an inanimate object stands in the temple as a statue representing the so-called god; an actual demon is the "god" being worshipped.
1 Corinthians 10:14-22
Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry. I speak as to wise men; you judge what I say. Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ? Since there is one bread, we who are many are one body; for we all partake of the one bread. Look at the nation Israel; are not those who eat the sacrifices sharers in the altar? What do I mean then? That a thing sacrificed to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, but I say that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God; and I do not want you to become sharers in demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons. Or do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? We are not stronger than He, are we?
According to Paul, an idol is nothing. The Gentiles are actually sacrificing to demons. Idolatry, in truth, is seeking favor and blessing from a supernatural being.
People toss around idolatry as if they understand what it means. But they don't know what it means. You can say sex, money and power are idols. But idolatry is not the worship of sex, money and power. Such things are only the objects before whom men bow down. Actual Idol worship is expecting the supernatural power behind such things to deliver provision, prosperity, and protection. Those who worship before such thing are worshipping Satan, the prince of demons.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
YE shall have no other gods before HE WHO INSPIRED the BIBLE . THAT GOD . But that means YA BETTER GET IN THE BIBLE
and learn ALL THINGS HE INSPIRED IN THE BIBLE .
Cause if my god or your god contradicts what THE GOD who inspired the bible said , THEN KNOW and understand
WHY I BODLY REFUSED to capitlize that god . CAUSE ITS THE DEVIL . PEROID . learn those bibles and learn them well .
and learn ALL THINGS HE INSPIRED IN THE BIBLE .
Cause if my god or your god contradicts what THE GOD who inspired the bible said , THEN KNOW and understand
WHY I BODLY REFUSED to capitlize that god . CAUSE ITS THE DEVIL . PEROID . learn those bibles and learn them well .
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
These next words will offend many . But say them i will and say them i must .
THE SOCIAL ALL INCLUSIVE GO SPELL , IS OF SATAN . TO LEARN GOD I SUGGEST WE GET IN THE BIBLE and let no man
NO MATTER HOW HARD THEY DO TRY and BELIEVE ME THEY WILL , sway us from THAT SOUND DOCTRINE .
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
There is a reason why satan and his followers will always seem to try and exalt GOD while DE EMPHAZING the bible .
Now this will offend . what i am about to say will offend , i repeat it will offend . BUT TRUE IT IS .
CAUSE THE LOVE OF SELF is their god . THEY DONT LIKE THE HOLY GOD INSPIRED TRUTH IN THAT BIBLE
and satan knows how to decieve and he does so through , THE LUSTS OF THE FLESH , THROUGH THE PRIDE OF MEN
In simplier terms , they love the god of self more than the words of GOD OR GOD .
Something in that bible gets in the way of their desired goals and dreams . BUT for lambs EVERY WORD
in IT is for our good and meat to our soul .
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Your seeing it all wrong . OH i have no doubts this athiest and his or her attorney might be highly intelligentUnfortunately, the atheist I've debated the most with is an attorney and he is highly intelligent. Again, 'unfortunately', more intelligent than me.I was shocked when I went to his home for the first time....and found out he had a bigger library on "Christianity" than I did. And he didn't study to agree, he studied to debate against. I can say this though, he also knew I wasn't the dullest tool in the intelligence shed.
But the only times I ever made him shut his mouth for loss of what to say, was when I started sharing the supernatural testimonies I had concerning demonic manifestations, demonic deliverances and the supernatural power and gifting's of God . He was our attorney for years and he knew my integrity and he knew I wasn't lying with those stories just to win. So when I got tired of loosing or stalemating with the theological debates, I'd go supernatural on him and he just became a statue. Over the years we talked less and less about the subject neither of us was going to budge on.
BUT ITS THE INTELLIGENCE OF THE WORLD .
NOT OF GOD .
NOT OF GOD .
Repeat NOT OF GOD . Worry not on how ye shall debate anyone , worry not . JUST SPEAK TRUTH .
IF they recieve it amen , IF NOT , shake the dust off and move on . a heretick , after you have warned them once or twice
REJECT , THEY CONDMEN THEMSELVES . I dont need to out wit , out think a lost soul . ALL I NEED IS GOD .
HE will give me the words . AND BY GOLLY if they reject those words , WELL I AINT GOD , YOU AINT GOD
shake the dust off and move on .
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Never pander to the feelings of men . SPEAK TRUTH . Those who have ears to hear will hear . those who dont wont .
Most words i speak which correct sinful and wrong behavoir might make the hearts of those to whom i warn sad .
WELL LORD WILLING MAYBE THEY WILL SORROW TO REPENTANCE . But as for their feelings , well TRUTH is more important
and their SOUL is far more important to me .
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I must admit to a rare case when I don't understand what another person is saying. I went for a long walk in hopes that my comprehension might improve. You might be attempting to say something wise and profound. But I don't get it. And I'm not blaming you. I blame myself. If you don't mind, can you explain it a different way?
In the meantime, may I respond to your previous post, because during my walk I thought of something that I forgot?
Sometimes, it's a question of happiness, fulfillment, and/or human flourishing. If you want to use the term "idolatry" to describe those who expect to find human fulfillment and human flourishing in anyone or anything other than God, then I can accept that. Someone might say to themselves, "If only I had more money", you might call that idolatry I suppose. Jesus warned us against the worship of mammon. We can only have one master, he says.
One might say, "If I only had enough money, then bad things wouldn't bother me. I would never go hungry. I would never lack anything. I would weather every storm, raise good children, and have a happy wife." If you want to call that "Idolatry", I could see that.
If one should ask, "What is the source of all happiness, fulfillment, and flourishing" and he should answer anything other than God, then I suppose one might call this "idolatry."
I learned about a certain branch of Christianity that believes the Bible holds all the knowledge necessary to live a blessed and happy life in this world. However, some may argue that this ideology could be considered idolatrous, as there is no assurance that God won't test one's faith from time to time. Hardship and suffering are sometimes necessary to learn wisdom.
Anyway, I look forward to your comments. :)
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I understand your POV completely and I agree with it to a point. I know that words can be intentionally hurtful or unintentionally hurtful. You are talking about those moments when the truth can cause us distress, like when we hear about the death of a loved one. But I must always be sensitive to those moments when my words seem intentionally hurtful when they are not.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I totally agree. And I was not being critical of you at all. I simply take issue with the concept of Bibliolatry, which is an accusation being leveled at Bible believers who take the text literally. Those who level the charge of Bibliolatry actually mean to say something like, "You take the Bible much too literally."
At times, people accuse others of "idealizing" the Biblical text by interpreting certain verses in terms of an "ideal" and searching for archetypes, patterns, or types. Some eschatological doctrines, which include soteriological doctrines, are known for idealizing scripture. These groups may believe that I focus too much on the literal aspects when discussing the Millennial period, for instance.
I once heard about a woman who attempted to prove, from the Bible, that man would never land on the moon. For my part, this seems like a clear example of Bibliolatry in the sense of "an over-reliance on the Bible." It is obvious to even a casual reader that the Bible wasn't intended as a guide book or an authority on scientific matters. It speaks truthfully about the natural world, when that is the intent, but those who have an over-reliance on the Bible tend to force the Bible to speak about issues which are not actually covered in the Bible.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
"Opinion" is a good choice of words. "Bibliolatry" is fine as long as it meets your criteria but, if not:
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