Bibliolatry: Worship/knowledge of the book MORE than the author

[St. SteVen]

Unfortunately, the atheist I've debated the most with is an attorney and he is highly intelligent. Again, 'unfortunately', more intelligent than me. I was shocked when I went to his home for the first time....and found out he had a bigger library on "Christianity" than I did. And he didn't study to agree, he studied to debate against. I can say this though, he also knew I wasn't the dullest tool in the intelligence shed.

But the only times I ever made him shut his mouth for loss of what to say, was when I started sharing the supernatural testimonies I had concerning demonic manifestations, demonic deliverances and the supernatural power and gifting's of God . He was our attorney for years and he knew my integrity and he knew I wasn't lying with those stories just to win. So when I got tired of loosing or stalemating with the theological debates, I'd go supernatural on him and he just became a statue. Over the years we talked less and less about the subject neither of us was going to budge on.

Good testimony, thanks.
They overcame by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony,
Also reminds me of this.

1 Corinthians 2:4-5 NIV
My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words,
but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power,
5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.

 

[Hillsage]

@AMIGO said: And yet PAUL had the spirit cast out of her . SO pull up a chair cause i am gonna let you in on a secrete that a lot of folks dont know .

What do you mean "Paul HAD the spirit cast out of her."?

ACT 16:18 And this she did for many days. But Paul was annoyed, and turned and said to the spirit, "I charge you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her." And it came out that very hour.

I know that you don't really know me, nor do I really know you. Not our fault, I'm just newer with 90 posts to your 16,000. So I'm just going to unpack my perception of your 'next sentence in the quote above'. IMO I've been a born again, water baptized, Holy Spirit baptized, unknown tongue praying believer....as long as you have been alive. So I look at your statement as a bit naive at best and maybe even haughty, at worst. If someone expects me to "pull up a chair" and listen to them, then they really need to back up what they say with scripture or reasonable facts to support their judgments. I see neither of those in this post, nor any of your last 3 post. I just went back to check. I may be judging wrongly, and if that's the case I will repent. But at this point I feel no conviction from the Spirit.

Most them money blab it and grab it preachers are under a spirit of divination , just like new age is
Heck just like them hillsong churches and etc .

What is your basis for saying "a spirit of divination" is 'the spirit' behind "blab it and grab it" or "Name it and claim it" or "Faith preachers"? I've never heard that before. Where did you get that from? Tell me your source which is a secret to me.

AND just like that lady too could holler some truths , SO can they , But BEWARE THEM , they be the false leading the false to death .

Was it "the lady" who "could holler some truths."? Or was it 'the Python' or "spirit of divination" crying out through her possessed body?

"divination" is the Greek word puthon: a Python, i.e. (by analogy with the supposed diviner there) inspiration (soothsaying)

OH yes satan himself can even say GOD IS LOVE , but beware the version of love HE GONNA SELL .
Just like many preachers now do . THEY bought a false wordly love and they think its coming FROM GOD
when in truth , IT BE THE VERSION OF SATAN to lead them all into an all inclusive sin accepting many path to GOD accepting LIE .
OOOPSY . WE bess get in bibles . Be encouraged .

Again my 'friend of Christ', You appear to speak very broadly and loudly above, but also, very unclearly for me. I have no idea if I'm guilty of your warnings or not. And as far as your "BEST get in bibles" recommendation....could you be more specific? Which of over 300 complete OT/NT bible translations is the one that's right? I've never found one. And neither has the hundreds of denominations of "Christianity". Denominations which ALL disagree doctrinally based upon THE BIBLE.

BTW, just exactly what church do you go to? Your profile is pretty blank....that too concerns me when someone wants to speak as an authority in my life, or the life of others.

Sorry "Amigo", just being honest here.

 

[Hillsage]

Yeah, sounds fair and reasonable to me. Paul was not exempt from being stroked so to speak. The pronouncement could have been agreeable, even flattering at first but the consistent repetition signalled a red flag and he called it.

So you don't appear to be giving any credit to God for Paul's coming to the knowledge of realizing this was a spirit manifesting? Am I reading you wrong concerning this statement above? Are you saying Paul just figured it out after many days because the truth was repeated so many times it became a "red flag and HE called it"? Is that what you believe?

 

[quietthinker]

So you don't appear to be giving any credit to God for Paul's coming to the knowledge of realizing this was a spirit manifesting? Am I reading you wrong concerning this statement above? Are you saying Paul just figured it out after many days because the truth was repeated so many times it became a "red flag and HE called it"? Is that what you believe?

It is assumed God gets the credit.
We assume much, even that the chair we sit on has integrity. :)
We hope our assumptions are accurate. There is always permission to test them; courage is on offer for all.

 

[Scott Downey]

So you don't appear to be giving any credit to God for Paul's coming to the knowledge of realizing this was a spirit manifesting? Am I reading you wrong concerning this statement above? Are you saying Paul just figured it out after many days because the truth was repeated so many times it became a "red flag and HE called it"? Is that what you believe?

Jesus came for the lost sheep of his, those children that God gave to Him before time began, that God foreknew as His people, and note, He has these other sheep...who do not yet know God, but they will as He will go and get them and bring them to God. Also noteworty is that Christ successfully finds His lost sheep that God gave to Him. Not a single one remains lost.
Hebrews 2:10-18
2 timothy 1:9

John 10
14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

1 Peter 2:25
For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
8 Then Zacchaeus stood and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord, I give half of my goods to the poor; and if I have taken anything from anyone by false accusation, I restore fourfold.”

9 And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because he also is a son of Abraham; 10 for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.”

------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 Then all the tax collectors and the sinners drew near to Him to hear Him. 2 And the Pharisees and scribes complained, saying, “This Man [a]receives sinners and eats with them.” 3 So He spoke this parable to them, saying:

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine [b]just persons who need no repentance.

8 “Or what woman, having ten silver [c]coins, if she loses one coin, does not light a lamp, sweep the house, and search carefully until she finds it? 9 And when she has found it, she calls her friends and neighbors together, saying, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found the piece which I lost!’ 10 Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

 

[CadyandZoe]

That's not answering the question Charlies comment inspired in my post that you're responding to.

She observed of your ongoing pov here"... I have never heard anyone present God in this manner but the Atheist, and the UR."

I stated in reply, why don't we let you answer which one you are.

Simply, are you an atheist or UR?

Very similar, Yes? My brother is both. What they have in common is this. Both Atheism and UR attract people who are afraid of being held accountable to a just God.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I’m taking a class through my church entitled, 3 Strands. While it delves into the Bible, it simultaneously de-emphasizes the Bible’s importance; explicitly pointing out that we are not saved by the Bible but the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

I believe Bible IDOLATRY is a risk when we synonymously call it, ‘the word of God.’ People fail to discern between the lone Creator and the many REAL-gods in Scripture. See Psalm 82:6.

The Bible is a god - an authority - but it is not the Creator God. One more thing about how we are saved. We are not saved because of our relationship with the Bible. We are saved because of our relationship with God through his only begotten son.

I love to read your posts and I know you will take this post as one who considers you a brother. I want to encourage you.

There is NO such thing as Bible worship. Don't fall for this lie. Anyone who de-emphasizes the Bible's importance is deadly wrong and perhaps antichrist.

NO genuine child of God and faithful follower of Jesus Christ ever says we are saved by the Bible. That charge is false. That kind of statement does nothing more than cause people to doubt the scriptures. The scriptures are THE most reliable source of God's will for mankind and not only should we read the Bible we should study it more.

There is no such thing as "Bible Idolatry". Consider the question of idolatry. What is an idol? An idol is a figurine or a statue representing a god. Idolaters believe that the idol is the focal point of contact between the world above and the world below. In our time, we might think of a good luck charm. What does an idolater expect from a god? From the fertility idol, the idolater expects lots of children and animal births. From the agricultural god, the idolater expects rain, protection from insects, good weather, and a good harvest.

NO genuine child of God and faithful follower of Jesus Christ is doing THAT with a Bible. I guarantee it. Paul describes idolatry as "worshiping the creature rather than the creator." Jesus followers don't do that.

The Bible gives us access to God's will for mankind; the Bible introduces us to Grace, and Peace, and Salvation, and Human Flourishing. There are many forces in this world claiming to be God; the Bible is the place to gain access to the living God, the God who actually exists, the only God worthy of our worship. There are many who claim to be the Christ, as Jesus said, The Bible gives us access to the real Jesus Christ.

Don't let anyone ever, Ever, EVER, make you doubt the importance and significance of the Bible. Ever. The Bible doesn't need to be de-emphasized. It simply needs to be used correctly. A Sunday School class should never teach to de-emphasize the Bible. It should teach proper interpretation techniques.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Maybe you might realize the word he was referring to was, is, God.

When you read "word" in James, think "promise." James was talking about the promise of God.

 

[MatthewG]

I believe that people can worship the bible more than they will Yahava himself. There are people who will just show up to church once a year, and go on about their life and never sit and take time to read the bible. The bible is useful, however should never be worshipped, no person or man should become also your idol, be it your wife, your own children, or anything that one may hold above God. Yahava is to be loved first, over all things, and then one can love their neighbor as their self. There are also those who stand on street corners and shout out bible verses, without even others knowing the surrounding context.

Not saying there are not people who choose to worship God first, but there are those who will server their own will over what God, or even Jesus had taught having themselves going and doing things by their own nature rather than relying on the spirit. Therefore yes, the bible can be worshipped... more than the Creator if someone is not careful; but God is only able to read the hearts of other people in the end.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Agreed. Sacred cows. Ex 32.

Lately, I've become aware of a lot of IDOLATRY among Christians. Knowledge, in general, has been made into an IDOL. In particular, is knowledge of the Bible, and even a particular translation. In addition, people make IDOL's of their doctrines.

On this forum, 2 such doctrines are OSAS and the doctrine that shall not be discussed. Policy - Topics That Can No-Longer Be Discussed at CyB.

I too have asked tough questions and have been disappointed in the shallowness of the response or the questions just being ignored because they are uncomfortable in facing their sacred cows being slaughtered. Reasons Jews Reject Jesus

This is the very thing I would like to stop if possible. People don't make idols of their Bibles or their doctrines. Don't confuse idolatry with pride or false loyalty. Consider the following conversation:

One day a pastor from one denomination is having coffee with a pastor from another denomination. Both pastors are friends and both get together to study the Bible. After each man orders A. says to B.

A. I finally discovered the proper interpretation of Romans chapter 9. Let me show you.
(Pastor A. lays out his interpretation for his friend pastor B.)
B. That is a very interesting proposal. I must think about it more. I believe you are correct.
A. Do you believe it then?
B. Well, it's difficult. If I affirmed the truth of what you say, I could no longer be a Baptist minister.

Denominational loyalty is born of pride and a sense of comradery. Not only does familiarity breed company, but it also gives us a great sense of comfort and security.

Not only this, but once a person commits to a particular idea or concept, one is not easily moved away from that idea or concept. Religious and theological ideas carry great weight and inertia. That is the way it should be. God gave us all the tools and skills required to make contact with the world "the way it really is" and we are blessed with a strong antidote to fatal skepticism. Once I learn something true, I am not going to give it up easily.

This doesn't mean that I worship knowledge or worship the Bible. I believe what the Bible says because it has demonstrated itself to be a reliable and trustworthy critique of me the sinner and a reliable and trustworthy account of God's will for mankind. I don't worship the Bible but I place it above other sources claiming to speak about God or for God. I believe God's testimony about himself, which is mediated through the written word and the Holy Spirit.

Bibliolatry is nothing but a false accusation waged against one's opponent. Based on this thread, I am beginning to suspect that UR people invented the word in order to deflect criticism coming from those who fear God and believe what his prophets and apostles wrote.

Please church, don't start accusing each other of this, causing each other to doubt the reliability of the written word.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I believe that people can worship the bible more than they will Yahava himself.

Really? I don't think so. I have NEVER heard of anyone worshipping a Bible. People say it all the time, but it doesn't really happen.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I think there is a lack of understanding as to what Idolatry actually is, or entails.

Certainly atheists claiming Christians worship the Bible is an example of that aforementioned failure in understanding.
As is holding respect for a particular doctrine not at Allan example of idolatry.

What happens in discussions like those initiated by atheists waging a personal grudge against the faith and the faithful when they make false accusations like those mentioned , if the Christians present watch how the atheists involved "at-a-boy" one another, is absolute contempt for God And disrespect for what gives meaning to every Christians life here.


It isn't atheism. I know atheists. They care not one bit about what we believe. And they certainly don't troll religious communities. I know because I've asked.

Rather, it's Satanism.
God's adversary. Adversaries.

Well said. I wholeheartedly agree.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Both are true. There is rampant IDOLATRY in Christianity today AND Christian’s don’t handle well when confronted with it, especially by atheists.


I concede it could be satanism. However, I prefer to give the atheist the benefit of the doubt; that they are here because of their own doubt and want iron to sharpen iron; that they feel the pull of the Holy Spirit and are grappling with their worldly philosophies, trying to reconcile what cannot be reconciled.

When I was a young believer we used to draw a distinction between "Christianity" and "Church-ianity." We attempted to sort out the difference between the praxis of the Christian religion and the praxis of the Christian Faith. Some who claim to be "Christian" in the first sense are not Christian in the second sense.

I would agree that we can find rampant Idolatry among those who practice the "Christian" religion, but never among the children of God who follow Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. And I agree with your observation concerning atheists.

 

[CadyandZoe]

When we believe the Bible is the inspired word of God, I think any argument that insists God does not speak to us in our mind or thought, is invalid.

Both are true, but the Bible helps us "test the spirits" so to speak. Yes? If it is really God speaking to us in our thoughts, then it will not contradict what has already been revealed.

 

[CadyandZoe]

But what are we to learn and understand from the bible? That God drowned the antediluvian world because they wouldn't dance to his tune?

What a stupid question.

Genesis 6:
5. Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

 

[MatthewG]

Really? I don't think so. I have NEVER heard of anyone worshipping a Bible. People say it all the time, but it doesn't really happen.

You are free to decide for yourself however you desire to. No one can know peoples hearts but Yahava. It is okay to disagree.

 

[CadyandZoe]

We grow closer to God and each other as we understand the character of God. It is God's character which the devil wants to obscure and misrepresent.....and he does a magnificent job.

So, the question that desperately needs asking is, 'what is God really like?' Is he genocidal as in OT accounts or is he as displayed in Jesus?....you know, 'love your enemy'. We must make the effort to find out why the discrepancy.

If we don't seriously ask that question and have the desire for a real answer, we will thrash around in religious irrelevancies infinitum. We will continue to call each other 'of the devil' because the discordant views which we have, yet say come from the bible, are at odds with someone else's view who also says it comes from the bible......and all this is because we do not understand the truth of the character of God.

This is the perfect example of idolatry. Isaiah was critical of his kinsmen for the idolatry they practiced. He observed that they took a piece of wood and used half of it to make a figurine and the other half to burn in the fire. Some Bible scholars are critical of Isaiah because he doesn't seem to understand that the figurine is not the god but only the god's token.

But the scholars don't understand the point Isaiah was making. Isaiah concludes that just as a man fashions the idol out of wood, he innovates the god it represents. The so-called god is fictional, not real, imaginary -- in a sense "crafted" by man.

UR has crafted a fictional god, an imaginary god, crafted by a man. Whatever god is, he isn't the one in the Bible.

 

[MatthewG]

@CadyandZoe, there are those in the bible who would go and study the bible but they would make their own traditions out of it to some extent or another. That was not worshipping Yahava, but worshipping whatever they wanted to instead, making pathways around Gods ways for ones own ways.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You are free to decide for yourself however you desire to. No one can know peoples hearts but Yahava. It is okay to disagree.

Don't feed me BS, Matthew. Either someone believes in objective truth or they don't.

 

[CadyandZoe]

@CadyandZoe, there are those in the bible who would go and study the bible but they would make their own traditions out of it to some extent or another. That was not worshipping Yahava, but worshipping whatever they wanted to instead, making pathways around Gods ways for ones own ways.

I agree with you. Well said. But let's be clear here. The concept of "worship" doesn't include the worship of things. Worship is giving deference to living beings such as God, or Satan, or demons, or human kings etc. And worship is given to a god or gods in exchange for promises to give us stuff or do something for us.

When the Bible says, "I will be your God . . ." it means to say, "I will be "god" for you." The promise is that God will favor his people, and bless his people both materially and spiritually in exchange for their faith in him and giving deference to him and his commandments. His people will live in a particular land, have plenty of children, animals, and crops. And he will protect them from enemies and fight for them.

No one expects that a Bible (a material object) will provide for them, and protect them.

But Peter talks about the people you mentioned.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A dog returns to its own vomit,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”

I think Peter would say something similar about those who, after reading the Bible, make their own traditions.