Do you believe Spirit baptism replaces water baptism?

[Johann]

If I was at your church, I would lift you into the pool myself brother. If you like I know a pastor of a Lutheran Church. I can ask him about accommodation for the handy capped.

I really appreciate your concern-I am not handicapped-it was the urgent plea from a member.
I am between a rock and a hard place at the moment here in South Africa-here where I am "Churches" are lukewarm and believe it or not-the Muslim Community is very helpful to the poor and the needy.
I don't know of any Lutheran Churches nearby as I don't have a car and my son is in need of constant daily care-

Again-thank you @CadyandZoe
Johann.

 

[ScottA]

I really appreciate your concern-I am not handicapped-it was the urgent plea from a member.
I am between a rock and a hard place at the moment here in South Africa-here where I am "Churches" are lukewarm and believe it or not-the Muslim Community is very helpful to the poor and the needy.
I don't know of any Lutheran Churches nearby as I don't have a car and my son is in need of constant daily care-

Again-thank you @CadyandZoe
Johann.

Sorry to hear all that.

Remember, you or He need not go but only believe. This was the faith of the centurion.

 

[Johann]

Sorry to hear all that.

Remember, you or He need not go but only believe. This was the faith of the centurion.

Practical help and assistance will go a long way brother-again, sad to say-the Muslim Community will put many to shame and so the Catholic Church-we receive a monthly donation from them re food parcels etc.
Hence the reason I know there are genuine born again ones in the Catholic Church.
I live a very reclusive life @ScottA -not by choice.
Shalom
J.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I really appreciate your concern-I am not handicapped-it was the urgent plea from a member.
I am between a rock and a hard place at the moment here in South Africa-here where I am "Churches" are lukewarm and believe it or not-the Muslim Community is very helpful to the poor and the needy.
I don't know of any Lutheran Churches nearby as I don't have a car and my son is in need of constant daily care-

Again-thank you @CadyandZoe
Johann.

Okay, I sent a letter to my pastor friend and when he responds I will pass along his advice, if any, to you. One could certainly design a baptismal pool with a ramp down to an appropriate level.

I remember a time when a young lady in a wheelchair came to speak at our church. The elevator was not working so my friend and I lifted her and her wheelchair up onto the stage, and when she was done, we lifted her down from the stage. This was nothing more than a couple of strong brothers helping out a sister in the Lord. When she was done, I had a conversation with her and while I spoke I sat on the floor next to her so we could speak eye-to-eye. She smiled.

Small things make a big difference.

 

[Johann]

Okay, I sent a letter to my pastor friend and when he responds I will pass along his advice, if any, to you. One could certainly design a baptismal pool with a ramp down to an appropriate level.

I remember a time when a young lady in a wheelchair came to speak at our church. The elevator was not working so my friend and I lifted her and her wheelchair up onto the stage, and when she was done, we lifted her down from the stage. This was nothing more than a couple of strong brothers helping out a sister in the Lord. When she was done, I had a conversation with her and while I spoke I sat on the floor next to her so we could speak eye-to-eye. She smiled.

Small things make a big difference.

Again-@CadyandZoe-I am NOT handicapped-my apologies if that came across as such-

Q. How Important is Baptism? (with handicap) | Bible.org

I am a 2 time stroke survivor. My son introduced me to Christ several years ago. He explained to me that water baptism would complete my connection to Christ. I currently can no longer stand nor walk. Can someone wheel me in my wheelchair into the water or perhaps someone who has great in Christ...

bible.org

Besides-I am in South Africa-but have, as a young lad-gave pastors the initiative on how to help the poor and needy in Brakpan-Benoni, Boksburg and Johannesburg-that is more my calling and have found that in a ministry called The Ark in Durban-long closed by now.
I was a young boxer under one of the Toweel brothers-way back.

But hopefully you can pass the information on to pastors in Churches on how to make the building more wheel chair friendly and to reach out to those who are in need-from members IN the Church and those in your community.

God bless.
J.

 

[amigo de christo]

Again-@CadyandZoe-I am NOT handicapped-my apologies if that came across as such-

Q. How Important is Baptism? (with handicap) | Bible.org

I am a 2 time stroke survivor. My son introduced me to Christ several years ago. He explained to me that water baptism would complete my connection to Christ. I currently can no longer stand nor walk. Can someone wheel me in my wheelchair into the water or perhaps someone who has great in Christ...

bible.org

Besides-I am in South Africa.
God bless.
J.

My friend has arrived . To the trenches my friend . The lambs shall point to CHRIST JESUS and all biblical doctrine HE did inspire
To the end . Hit the trenches and let the LORD be praised my friend .

 

[Johann]

what does testing ones faith have to do with the topic.

water baptism either saves a soul or it does not and is obeying one of Gods many commands.

it can;t be both ways

I have answered-reread the post-as @atpollard showed you.

 

[atpollard]

then I must ask why he attacks everyone who tries to teach that water baptism is not required.

Its one thing to say you do not believe something, it is another to actually follow that with actions..

He did not say that it is not required. He said it is not a REQUISITE for salvation.

• Is it required that you stop sinning in order for God to save you?
• Does that mean that people who are saved should continue sinning?
• [Why or why not to the above.]

Now apply that same thinking to "get Baptized" instead of "stop sinning".

 

[Johann]

He did not say that it is not required. He said it is not a REQUISITE for salvation.

• Is it required that you stop sinning in order for God to save you?
• Does that mean that people who are saved should continue sinning?
• [Why or why not to the above.]

Now apply that same thinking to "get Baptized" instead of "stop sinning".

One day you will know how much I appreciate this my brother-Brothers and sisters standing in the gap and on/in behalf of those who are weak and vulnerable.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

He did not say that it is not required. He said it is not a REQUISITE for salvation.

• Is it required that you stop sinning in order for God to save you?
• Does that mean that people who are saved should continue sinning?
• [Why or why not to the above.]

Now apply that same thinking to "get Baptized" instead of "stop sinning".

when someone says something is an imperative, they saying it is required. or at the least, people will think this.

 

[atpollard]

Ahh, what the heck. I have a bizarre personal story about WATER BAPTISM (mine) that bridges Paedobaptism, Credobaptism, Baptismal Regeneration, and Water vs Spirit Baptism. So here goes:

It begins with a fight between Catholic Maternal Grandparents that are DETERMINED that their grandchild will be baptized and Methodist Paternal Grandparents that are determined that HELL will freeze over before their grandchild will be raised Catholic [this was the early 1960's]. In response, my Atheist father, who wanted nothing more than a little peace in his life, located a local Lutheran Pastor who agreed to baptize baby Arthur (that's me) in his Lutheran Church (which, to the best of my knowledge, we attended twice including my infant baptism).​

​

Such a Paedobaptism qualifies as "genuine" by NOBODY's definition of Baptism. It symbolized nothing, was attended by unbelievers, who then lied about bringing up the child and were part of no covenant. God, however, was setting up to have the last laugh. Unknown to EVERYONE involved, God was placing the "powers and principalities and rulers of this age" on notice that THIS SOUL was only on loan to them, because God had predetermined that He would be coming back to RECLAIM this baby for Himself.​

​

Growing up with my family legacy, I made the most of the opportunities the world offered to embrace the darkness. I chose gangs. I smuggled drugs. I set enemies on fire. I embraced not merely the folly of Atheism, but the emptiness of Nihilism. That was when God called in His marker ... Road to Damascus style. In an instant, I was not my own, but I belonged to Him and walked away from EVERYTHING in my old life.​

​

Since I heard the Gospel from a Charismatic Outreach, and since I learned most of what I knew from just cold reading the New Testament, and since I did not make it through the Catechism to be able to embrace the RCC church (the nearest Church to where I lived), I had no opportunity to be baptized at my conversion [so much for Baptismal Regeneration].​

​

Ten years later, I had graduated college and moved to another state and started studying "Precepts" and "threads running throughout the Bible" under an African Missionary TO the United States [Yes, Africa sends missionaries to the USA to reach the lost ... how is that for a kick in the head?]. One day, the local "Church of God of Anderson Indiana" [part of the Wesleyan Holiness movement of the 1800's] that I was attending was baptizing some new Christians. (It was really great. I love adult baptisms.) I happened to mention to the deacon sitting next to me that because of the strange circumstances of my conversion, I was never baptized. I didn't think much of it - the fact that I didn't set people that pissed me off on fire spoke volumes about my heart - but that poor old man seemed like he was about to die of a heart attack in front of my eyes.​

​

So the Pastor called me into his office for a chat and I told him the story I just told y'all above. He suggested that I really should get baptized since Jesus commanded it. I had no objections, better late than never, I guess, but after the change in me over the last 10 years, I just can't really accept that water is 100% ESSENTIAL to God doing what God does when it comes to SALVATION. So I was finally, Credobaptized via immersion (pity the fish that swim in the water carrying away MY sins ;) ) in accordance with the command of Christ.​

And THAT's my story. Weird, huh?

 

[atpollard]

when someone says something is an imperative, they saying it is required. or at the least, people will think this.

Since my questions appear to have been too hard to follow, let me break it down for you ...

• Is it an imperative that Christians stop sinning (living a life characterized by sin, in the flesh)? [YES]
• Is it required for the unsaved to stop sinning (living a life characterized by sin, in the flesh) before God can save them? [NO]

• Is it an imperative that Christians obey the commands of Jesus (including the command to be baptized)? [YES]
• Is it required for the unsaved to obey the command of Jesus (to be baptized) before God can save them? [NO]

Now, do you have any questions?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Since my questions appear to have been too hard to follow, let me break it down for you ...

• Is it an imperative that Christians stop sinning (living a life characterized by sin, in the flesh)? [YES]

To be saved, No it is not imperative

• Is it required for the unsaved to stop sinning (living a life characterized by sin, in the flesh) before God can save them? [NO]

• Is it an imperative that Christians obey the commands of Jesus (including the command to be baptized)? [YES]

To be saved? No.

• Is it required for the unsaved to obey the command of Jesus (to be baptized) before God can save them? [NO]

Now, do you have any questions?

Its not imperative that we do any of these things.

Now if we want to be blessed. it would be profitable that we do them..

 

[Johann]

Since my questions appear to have been too hard to follow, let me break it down for you ...

• Is it an imperative that Christians stop sinning (living a life characterized by sin, in the flesh)? [YES]
• Is it required for the unsaved to stop sinning (living a life characterized by sin, in the flesh) before God can save them? [NO]

• Is it an imperative that Christians obey the commands of Jesus (including the command to be baptized)? [YES]
• Is it required for the unsaved to obey the command of Jesus (to be baptized) before God can save them? [NO]

Now, do you have any questions?

I am really starting to appreciate you brother-but I am afraid we might "have intense moments of fellowship" since I don't give my trust easily.
I held myself accountable to two, or three brothers and a sister-since I don't claim to know it all-went good for awhile and now "silence"
I have this inward witness I can learn a lot from you-but my mother tongue is Afrikaans and don't express myself well enough-or clearly-hence continual miscommunication and misrepresentation.

Doesn't mean I am illiterate-far from it-just a work in progress.
Shalom to you and precious family.
Johann.

 

[Johann]

Its not imperative that we do any of these things.

Now if we want to be blessed. it would be profitable that we do them..

Now isn't this a contradiction?
Never mind.
Enjoy your day, mine was productive.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Now isn't this a contradiction?
Never mind.
Enjoy your day, mine was productive.

No it is not

unless you want to make it be.

 

[atpollard]

I am really starting to appreciate you brother-but I am afraid we might "have intense moments of fellowship" since I don't give my trust easily.
I held myself accountable to two, or three brothers and a sister-since I don't claim to know it all-went good for awhile and now "silence"
I have this inward witness I can learn a lot from you-but my mother tongue is Afrikaans and don't express myself well enough-or clearly-hence continual miscommunication and misrepresentation.

Doesn't mean I am illiterate-far from it-just a work in progress.
Shalom to you and precious family.
Johann.

Tread carefully around me ... I am one of those MEAN CALVINISTS :) (and a Credobaptist to boot!!)

So my Doctrines of Grace or rejection of covenants tend to piss off everyone sooner or later. ;)
I am learning not to take it personal. God just has a sense of humor.

Romans 14:1-6 [CSB]

Welcome anyone who is weak in faith, but don't argue about disputed matters. One person believes he may eat anything, while one who is weak eats only vegetables. One who eats must not look down on one who does not eat, and one who does not eat must not judge one who does, because God has accepted him. Who are you to judge another's household servant? Before his own Lord he stands or falls. And he will stand, because the Lord is able to make him stand. One person judges one day to be more important than another day. Someone else judges every day to be the same. Let each one be fully convinced in his own mind. Whoever observes the day, observes it for the honor of the Lord. Whoever eats, eats for the Lord, since he gives thanks to God; and whoever does not eat, it is for the Lord that he does not eat it, and he gives thanks to God.​

So let us each "be fully convinced in his own mind" as we do "not judge one another" and together, all "give thanks to God".

 

[Johann]

Tread carefully around me ... I am one of those MEAN CALVINISTS :) (and a Credobaptist to boot!!)

So my Doctrines of Grace or rejection of covenants tend to piss off everyone sooner or later. ;)
I am learning not to take it personal. God just has a sense of humor.

Romans 14:1-6 [CSB]

Welcome anyone who is weak in faith, but don't argue about disputed matters. One person believes he may eat anything, while one who is weak eats only vegetables. One who eats must not look down on one who does not eat, and one who does not eat must not judge one who does, because God has accepted him. Who are you to judge another's household servant? Before his own Lord he stands or falls. And he will stand, because the Lord is able to make him stand. One person judges one day to be more important than another day. Someone else judges every day to be the same. Let each one be fully convinced in his own mind. Whoever observes the day, observes it for the honor of the Lord. Whoever eats, eats for the Lord, since he gives thanks to God; and whoever does not eat, it is for the Lord that he does not eat it, and he gives thanks to God.​

So let us each "be fully convinced in his own mind" as we do "not judge one another" and together, all "give thanks to God".

So far so good-and may I add-we can pontificate on the Scriptures all we want-but if the D'varim is not put into practice-it's dead and useless.
Allow me to illustrate-if we have people here coming from squatter -rural areas to hear the Word of God-very good-but then they go back to the rural areas, no water, commodities hard to come by-what good is that when there is no follow up?

You see where I am coming from?
I'm glad you used the words "pissed off"-that is exactly how I am feeling.
I don't hold to Calvin and his teachings.
All good?
J.

 

[atpollard]

I don't hold to Calvin and his teachings.
All good?

I don't require ANYONE to hold to my beliefs (except the core Gospel stuff, like Jesus is God ... start with the Jehovah's Witness denying the Trinity and I become less polite because then, you are not a "brother"). [Romans 10:9-10]

I like to follow the motto of the Moravian Church: "In essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, in all things charity (love)."
So we are all good.

 

[Behold]

Do you know
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You didnt answer my question.
You only posted more cut and paste that nobody reads....

So, Go back and read my question.
See if you can answer it from your own mind @Johann