Do you believe Spirit baptism replaces water baptism?

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Behold

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You need to find all this in the Bible instead of making it up.


I "made up" the new Covenant, that is the Blood Atonement, that is Christ on the Cross, dying for your sin"?

Try again.
Guess again.

Listen,
If water died for you on the Cross, then keep believing what your cult teaches.
Did it?
If, however, Water is not Christ on the Cross, shedding His BLOOD for your sin,....... then my advice is to :


= THINK.
 
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Johann

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Being born again is LITERALLY connected to = "SPIRITUAL" Baptism.....
As this is the "new creation" by the Holy Spirit, whereby God birth's the spirit of the believer into the Holy Spirit of God.
This is the "washing of regeneration", SPIRITUALLY, as water can't do that for you.
If it could then we'd all be born again, when we took our first BATH or SHOWER.

Water baptism, follows salvation......it does not cause it.

If you read Acts 8, you'll notice that "all that believe are saved"........
Notice that Philip tells the Eunuch that he can get in the water, "If you have BELIEVED with all your heart, = FIRST"..

That is "As many as believe in Jesus.....God gives to THE BELIEVER, the power to become a Son/Daughter, of God".
By the washing of regeneration (διὰ λουτροῦ παλινγενεσίας)

Λουτρόν only here and Eph_5:26. It does not mean the act of bathing, but the bath, the laver. Παλινγενεσία only here and Mat_19:28, where it is used of the final restoration of all things. The phrase laver of regeneration distinctly refers to baptism, in connection with which and through which as a medium regeneration is conceived as taking place. Comp. Rom_6:3-5. It is true that nothing is said of faith; but baptism implies faith on the part of its recipient. It has no regenerating effect apart from faith; and the renewing of the Holy Spirit is not bestowed if faith be wanting.

Renewing (ἀνακαινώσεως)


Only here and Rom_12:2. Comp. 2Co_5:7. Paul has ἀνακαινοῦν to renew, 2Co_4:16; Col_3:10 : ἀνακαίνωσις renewing, Rom_12:2. Ἁνακαινίζειν to renew, only Heb_6:6. The connection of the genitive is disputed. Some make it dependent on λουτροῦ bath, so that the bath of baptism is conceived as implying regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit. Others construe with renewing only, ἀνακαινώσεως being dependent on διὰ; through the laver of regeneration and (through) the renewing, etc. The former seems the more probable. The phrase renewing of the Holy Spirit only here. In N.T. the Spirit or the Holy Spirit is joined in the genitive with the following words: comfort, joy, power, love, demonstration, manifestation, earnest, ministration, fellowship, promise, fruit, unity, sword, sanctification.
Vincent.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"by the washing of regeneration" This is literally "through the bath of regeneration." The term washing (loutron) is used only twice in the NT (Eph. 5:26 and here). It was rarely used in the Septuagint. It can refer to

1. the place of bathing

2. the water of bathing

3. the act of bathing

In Leviticus washings were a symbol of cleansing or purifying persons or things (cf. Dead Sea Scrolls). In Eph. 5:26 the bathing refers to a ritual bath before marriage.

The term "regeneration" (palingenesia) is also a rare term, found only in Matt. 19:28 and here. It is a compound from "again" (palin) and "birth" (genesis).


Therefore, it refers to the new birth brought about by the finished work of Christ and the wooing of the Spirit. The occasion of the new birth is water baptism, the agent is the Holy Spirit (cf. Titus 3:5-6), the means is the death and resurrection of Christ (cf. Titus 3:6), and the basis of it all is the love and mercy of the Father (cf. Titus 3:4).

This is not a text that supports baptismal regeneration.


Baptism was the occasion for the public confession/profession (cf. Acts 2:38) and the symbol of the believer's death, burial, and resurrection with Christ in symbolic action (cf. Rom. 6:3-9; Col. 2:12). In the early church baptism was the opportunity for a person's public profession of faith ("Jesus is Lord" cf. Rom. 10:13). The focus is the action of the Holy Spirit (i.e. birthing and renewing).



"renewing"

This is also a rare term used only twice in the NT, here and Rom. 12:2. It means to cause someone or something to become new. A related term is found in Col. 3:10. Grammatically it is synonymous with "rebirth." There is only one preposition (dia) for both of them. Therefore, this is not two works of grace, but two aspects of one work. This implies they are one event administered by the Holy Spirit. This would be similar to John 3:5-8 and 1 Pet. 1:23.

3:6 "poured out" This could refer to the Father (cf. Titus 3:4) or the Holy Spirit (cf. Titus 3:5). The same verb with the same ambiguity is used in Acts 2:17-18,33; 10:45, which is taken from Joel 2:28-30.
Utley.

Just my 2 cents-before being subjected to another verbal assault.
But I have to admit I am learning a lot from this pastor-with Scriptures to give a balanced, unbiased view on the various interpretations and I love his knowledge re the rabbinical writings and the Targums as well as the Morphology and Syntax as it stands written-in Koine Greek and the Hebrew Scriptures.

Some believe in baptismal regeneration-some don't-the burden of proof is on you to convince others-with Scripture references-whether it is false, or not-without attacking the PERSON

here is Gill

by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; by the former is meant, not the ordinance of water baptism; for that is never expressed by washing, nor is it the cause or means of regeneration; the cause being the Spirit of God, and the means the word of God: and besides, persons ought to be regenerated before they are baptized; and they may be baptized, and yet not regenerated, as Simon Magus; nor is it a saving ordinance, or a point of salvation; nor can it be opposed to works of righteousness, as this washing is; for that itself is a work of righteousness; see Mat_3:15 and if persons were saved by that, they would be saved by a work of righteousness, contrary to the text itself: but regenerating grace is meant, or a being born of water, and of the Spirit; that is, of the grace of the Spirit, comparable to water for its purity and cleansing virtue: hence such who are regenerated and sanctified, are said to be washed and cleansed, having their hearts purified by faith, and their consciences purged from sin by the blood of Christ: by the latter,

Exp-Greek

God saved us by Baptism, which involves two complementary processes, (a) the ceremony itself which marks the actual moment in time of the new birth, and (b) the daily, hourly, momently renewing of the Holy Spirit, by which the spiritual life is supported and fostered and increased. And the moving cause of this exceeding kindness of God was not any merits of our own, but His mercy.

Another source-
According to the context, Paul calls baptism the bath of the new birth, not meaning that it pledges us to the new birth (“to complete the process of moral purification, of expiation and sanctification,” Matthies), -

nor that it is a visible image of the new birth (de Wette), for neither in the one sense nor in the other could it be regarded as a means of saving (ἜΣΩΣΕΝ ἩΜᾶς ΔΙΆ). Paul uses that name for it as the bath by means of which God actually brings about the new birth.[13] Comp. with this the apostle’s expressions elsewhere regarding baptism, especially Rom_6:3 ff., Gal_3:27, Col_2:12, which all alike assign this real signification to baptism.
καὶ ἀνακαινώσεως πνεύματος ἁγίου] The genit. πν. ἁγ. is the genit. of the efficient cause: “the renewal wrought by the Holy Spirit” (de Wette, Wiesinger, van Oosterzee). This may be taken as the continuing influence of the Spirit working in the regenerated Christian, or as the single act of inward change by which the man became a καινὴ κτίσις (2Co_5:17), a τέκνον Θεοῦ.


Here the word is to be taken in the latter signification, as is clear from its connection with ἔσωσεν ἡμᾶς;[14] otherwise in Rom_12:2; Eph_4:22-24. According to some expositors, the genit. ἀνακαινώσεως is dependent on ΔΙΆ; Bengel: duae res commemorantur: lavacrum regenerationis, quae baptismi in Christum periphrasis et renovatio Spiritus sancti. According to others, it depends on ΛΟΝΤΡΟῦ, and is co-ordinate with ΠΑΛΙΓΓΕΝΕΣΊΑς; Vulgate: per lavacrum regenerationis et renovationis (de Wette, Wiesinger).

The latter is the right view, for “what else could ἈΝΑΚΑΊΝΩΣΙς ΠΝ. ἉΓ. be than the new birth denoted by ΠΑΛΙΓΓΕΝΕΣΊΑ?” (Wiesinger). In this way ἈΝΑΚ. ΠΝ. ἉΓ. is added epexegetically to the previous conception ΠΑΛΙΓΓΕΝΕΣΊΑ, explaining it, but not adding any new force to it.[15] Heinrichs quite wrongly thinks that ΠΝ. ἉΓ. here is the ΠΝ. hominis, ipsius, which (quatenus antea fuit ΨΥΧΙΚΌΝ, ΣΑΡΚΙΚΌΝ, ἘΠΊΓΕΙΟΝ) becomes holy by the ἈΝΑΚΑΊΝ.

But-knowing you by now-you will not read the info.



1694272459213.png
J.
 

CadyandZoe

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There is the OT Repentance of Israel.......jewish believers, under the law.
That is a water baptism. That is the "John the Baptist, repent and be baptized".....
However, No one is "In Christ', so that one is for them., not the born again.

After the Cross is Raised, we know... you know... that we get in the water and are immersed, and we come out of the water, symbolically, as the "new life in Christ".

The Water cults, however..... teach that this is what the Catholic Bible teaches in John 3.. that is a "doctrine of Devils"..

A.) The Catholic Bible teaches....>"Born again BY.... water".

See that mistranslation, ?

That is where this...>"sins are washed away by water"... comes from...
And you think I teach "born again by water?" I don't think I did.
 

Behold

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And you think I teach "born again by water?" I don't think I did.

Let me show you what you said, in relation to what a member said.

---------------------------------------------
He explained to me that water baptism would complete my connection to Christ.

Sincerely,
********,
@CadyandZoe said..

If I was at your church, I would lift you into the pool myself brother.


So, here is the problem, with your response.
This person has been unfortunately taught that "water baptism" is the completed "connection" to Christ.
And in fact, its no such thing, as all the born again are "COMPLETE IN HIM"> and that is without the help of the city water supply.
Understand?
You've read that verse ????? , = as its not talking about WATER WATER WATER.

So, you agreed with this "connection to Christ", as WATER, offering to connect them.


So, that is why i connected YOU to "baptismal regeneration".
 
J

Johann

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Now how did I know you did not read the full post?
You are in a debate with a member and instead of calling it "cultic" you need to prove your position-from Scriptures-as in my post you should have seen the various interpretations.

IF he believes in baptismal regeneration why don't you show him?
 

Behold

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Now how did I know you did not read the full post?
You are in a debate with a member and instead of calling it "cultic" you need to prove your position-from Scriptures-as in my post you should have seen the various interpretations.

IF he believes in baptismal regeneration why don't you show him?

I have.

I've shown them that "Born again BY water" came from the Catholic mistranslation of the Latin Text.

Jerome did this....>He translated the verse as... "Born Again BY Water".

If you have more questions, im here to answer them for you.
 

Grailhunter

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I "made up" the new Covenant, that is the Blood Atonement, that is Christ on the Cross, dying for your sin"?

Try again.
Guess again.

Listen,
If water died for you on the Cross, then keep believing what your cult teaches.
Did it?
If, however, Water is not Christ on the Cross, shedding His BLOOD for your sin,....... then my advice is to :


= THINK.
The Bible is not a cult....
 
J

Johann

Guest
I have.

I've shown them that "Born again BY water" came from the Catholic mistranslation of the Latin Text.

Jerome did this....>He translated the verse as... "Born Again BY Water".

If you have more questions, im here to answer them for you.
Answer my questions WITHOUT being sarcastic and allow me to use Dr. Utley? He is not my ultimate secondary source since Scripture is my primary source.
But through/dia this minister I am learning a lot-fast, with the assistance of the Holy Spirit.

Would that be OK?
 

Behold

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Answer my questions

Then ask a question.

see, suggesting that i should show a member some verses, is not asking me a question.
Its making a demand.

Understand?

So, if you have a QUESTION< then ask it, as a QUESTION.

That's pretty simple , and does not require a 4000 word "cut and paste" essay, instead. @Johann
 
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Johann

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Then ask a question.

see, suggesting that i should show a member some verses, is not asking me a question.
Its making a demand.

Understand?

So, if you have a QUESTION< then ask it, as a QUESTION.

That's pretty simple , and does not require a 4000 word "cut and paste" essay, instead. @Johann
So I take it as a negative-according to you I cannot, on pain of death-use Dr. Utley and his hermeneutics.
That's fine-no problems
 

Behold

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The Bible is not a cult....

True.

But the teaching that the city water supply that washes your BODY, can also reach inside you and deal with your sins, is not "the bible".

"Water baptism washes away sin".......Its a "cult of Mary" teaching that is also taught by the JW's and some other fringe Baptist groups and few others that are not worth taking the time to SPELL.
 
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Behold

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So I take it as a negative-according to you I cannot, on pain of death-use Dr. Utley and his hermeneutics.
That's fine-no problems

I think its a well known fact that you are always going to post "some man's" videos and commentary.

You came to this forum as a "Calvinist" teaching that one's demonic nonsense.
So, now you've shifted to a new "man", and you teach HIS theology.

I wonder who will be your new "man" next ?

Are you working on that yet?
 
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Grailhunter

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True.

But the teaching that the city water supply that washes your BODY, can also reach inside you and deal with your sins, is not "the bible".

Its a "cult of Mary" teaching that is also taught by the JW's and some other fringe Baptist groups and few others that are not worth taking the time to SPELL.
Again the Bible is not a cult....
And the Cathoics did not write the scriptures....
And no one is talking about the cult of Mary.....
And no one is talking about washing away sins....

All this is wandering around between your ears.....not part of reality or the discussion.
 

CadyandZoe

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Let me show you what you said, in relation to what a member said.

---------------------------------------------

@CadyandZoe said..

If I was at your church, I would lift you into the pool myself brother.


So, here is the problem, with your response.
This person has been unfortunately taught that "water baptism" is the completed "connection" to Christ.
And in fact, its no such thing, as all the born again are "COMPLETE IN HIM"> and that is without the help of the city water supply.
Understand?
You've read that verse ????? , = as its not talking about WATER WATER WATER.

So, you agreed with this "connection to Christ", as WATER, offering to connect them.


So, that is why i connected YOU to "baptismal regeneration".
Well I can assure you that I didn't read all of that into his simple statement. I heard the cry of a fellow believer's wish to be closer to his lord, believing the testimony that baptism would help.

Even though I don't believe in baptismal regeneration, I believe in a singular faith -- one that is willing to do whatever it takes to love God and his Son Jesus Christ. If a man believes that being placed into a baptismal pool will complete him, then why would I dare hold him in contempt?

I'm careful to never dismiss anyone's faith -- even the singular faith of one devoted to Jesus Christ.

Consider the following passage

Matthew 9:20-22
And behold, a woman who had been suffering from a hemorrhage for twelve years came up behind Him, and touched the border of His cloak; for she was saying to herself, “If I only touch His cloak, I will get well.” But Jesus, turning and seeing her, said, “Daughter, take courage; your faith has made you well.” And at once the woman was made well.

I believe that Jesus would describe this kind of faith as "little" faith, comparable to a tiny mustard seed. Although she believed everything she had learned about Jesus, there was one flaw in her understanding. She assumed that Jesus had some sort of "touch-transfer" power, and thought that touching his cloak would heal her. However, this was not the case. Healing occurs only when commanded by Jesus or the Father.

The crucial thing to understand is that Jesus doesn't require us to have correct theology before responding to us. His mercy is greater than our ignorance, and so should mine be. Instead of theology, it is mercy that guides my desire to help the man into the baptismal pool. I don't have to assess someone's understanding of the gospel before showing them kindness, generosity, and mercy.
 
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Johann

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Again the Bible is not a cult....
And the Cathoics did not write the scriptures....
And no one is talking about the cult of Mary.....
And no one is talking about washing away sins....

All this is wandering around between your ears.....not part of reality or the discussion.
You need to go easy on him-cognitive dissonance.

Cognitive dissonance is the discomfort a person feels when their behavior does not align with their values or beliefs. Cognitive dissonance is not a disease or illness. It is a psychological phenomenon that can happen to anyone. American psychologist Leon Festinger first developed the concept in the 1950s.

He has a tendency to be repetitive-not really the sort of man that will stand in any debate-since there are rules before engaging in a debate on a topic-such as water baptism-baptismal regeneration-etc.

But here he has the right to bring up past mistakes and what I have noticed is that he is not reading-always ready with an attack on you as a person-no love, since this is his right.
Pray for him-it's hard getting old, and here in South Africa anyone over the age of 40 are a burden.

God bless.
J.
 
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Johann

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Well I can assure you that I didn't read all of that into his simple statement. I heard the cry of a fellow believer's wish to be closer to his lord, believing the testimony that baptism would help.

Even though I don't believe in baptismal regeneration, I believe in a singular faith -- one that is willing to do whatever it takes to love God and his Son Jesus Christ. If a man believes that being placed into a baptismal pool will complete him, then why would I dare hold him in contempt?

I'm careful to never dismiss anyone's faith -- even the singular faith of one devoted to Jesus Christ.

Consider the following passage

Matthew 9:20-22
And behold, a woman who had been suffering from a hemorrhage for twelve years came up behind Him, and touched the border of His cloak; for she was saying to herself, “If I only touch His cloak, I will get well.” But Jesus, turning and seeing her, said, “Daughter, take courage; your faith has made you well.” And at once the woman was made well.

I believe that Jesus would describe this kind of faith as "little" faith, comparable to a tiny mustard seed. Although she believed everything she had learned about Jesus, there was one flaw in her understanding. She assumed that Jesus had some sort of "touch-transfer" power, and thought that touching his cloak would heal her. However, this was not the case. Healing occurs only when commanded by Jesus or the Father.

The crucial thing to understand is that Jesus doesn't require us to have correct theology before responding to us. His mercy is greater than our ignorance, and so should mine be. Instead of theology, it is mercy that guides my desire to help the man into the baptismal pool. I don't have to assess someone's understanding of the gospel before showing them kindness, generosity, and mercy.
Well said.
1 Cor13.
Johann.
 
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Behold

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Well I can assure you that I didn't read all of that into his simple statement.

No doubt.

But now that you read it more carefully, and you see my point, then you understand what i've said.

I know you see it, but if you need to keep trying to, sort of not agree, .. .thats fine, as ive posted what is necessary to understand.

Also, i have not accused you of teaching "born again BY water".
 
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Grailhunter

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A Catholic "Jerome" translated the Catholic Bible that offends the Cross, by teaching : "Born again BY water".

That's a cult teaching., taken from a cult's bible.
The Latin translation has no place in the Truth.
It is not from the biblical era or accurate translations.
And really not part of this discussion.
 
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