teamventure
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I suspect that the "Great White Throne Judgment" as described in Revelation is only imagery rather than an event
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No I was just commenting on the OP showing that it was wrong according to Jesus
St. SteVen
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Great, thanks.
I had issues with the OP as well. But for different reasons. Link to my post #47 below.
I suspect that the "Great White Throne Judgment" as described in Revelation is only imagery rather than an event
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: I believe the word "everlasting" is a mistake. I believe the following translation is correct. Mathew 25:41 CLNT 41 "Then shall He be...
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ewq1938
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Says outside the city not the kingdom. The kingdom is global. They are in the LOF, which is outside of the city...very far outside the city not even on the Earth.
Thank you for sharing your opinion with me. Its a joy to be able to read the bible.
The Lake of fire is said to be in front of the Lamb.
“he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.”
Revelation 14:10 NKJV
Revelation 14:10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the hol | New King James Version (NKJV)
he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the hol
bible.com
May people be encouraged to read and study the bible.
Hope you all have a good day.
ewq1938
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Yes, and where the GWTJ and LOF punishment is located is not on the Earth. It is a place Jesus and his angels must come to/arrive at via a "coming" which most mistake as the "second coming" to Earth.
Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Many people aren't aware that the GWTJ does not occur on the Earth. Christ must leave the Earth to go to where it happens which results in a "coming" to this new place that is not a reference to his second coming which is to the Earth.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Earth and heaven fleeing away means this is a place away from both Heaven and Earth which means Christ would have to leave Earth and "come" to this new place. Not all "comings" refer to the Earthly second coming. A "coming" is simply an arrival somewhere. After completing his second coming which is to the Earth, Christ would have to leave the Earth to be present at the GWTJ and the punishment of the lake of fire.
Thank you for sharing your viewpoint with me.
Thats kind of how i see it. Jesus came and took his bride which they were taken away, as the judgement on material israel was had; and there was a judgement for satan and all those in hades, and it all relates to revelation 20 as the wrapping up of the age in that day.
Doing away with satan, hades, and everything that was precluded in that. And everything is made new, in revelation 21-22 as the heavenly kingdom has been established.
Anyway most people arent gonna agree with this view; and its okay cause they are still waiting for Jesus to show up, then all of these things happen.
ewq1938
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The second coming is when Jesus leaves heaven and comes here, wherein the resurrection of the saved dead and the rapture of those who survived the GT will occur. All these things are yet to happen.
I disagree and its okay you still believe they have not. Thats what abiding Christ is all about. Allowing freedom for others to think and choose for themselves ultimately. It would be different if i condemned you or something in my opinion.
There is more to consider. Are we judged as souls without a body, or as beings with a body?
Jesus said the Father destroys body and soul in the lake of fire. We obviously lose this earthly body, so to be judged or have consciousness we need a body to function. Jesus was given a new body on His resurrection.
Equally wherever judgement takes place it is a spectacle in front of the whole of creation.
This is to prove who God is, the lamb that was slain given great honour, the redeemed people of God, His people.
The fruit of lost lives also stands, with records and books of miss-deeds.
The prophets say the righteous will have their miss-deeds forgotten about, wiped clean, so in a sense the judgement does not happen for them.
In this creation reckoning, instant judgement does not work, but the sleep of death makes sense until the resurrection. But Gods people have nothing to fear because they have been cleansed and deemed righteous. Paul implies perfect, but whether that is behavioural perfection or directional behaviour is a key question. The thief on the cross repented and believed and was saved, but clearly his behaviour had no time to play out and be sanctified. This tension is dealt with in relationship terms, the established bonds stay strong so the believer walks on like Peter did after his denial of knowing Jesus.
A new heaven and new earth and God dwelling with mankind on a new earth is not some partial event, it is the turning of a creation page. This is Gods plan, so who am I to contradict scripture and His revelation, but rather explore its implications. Whatever the Lord wants to do, I say Amen.
God bless you
St. SteVen
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Wow, great post, thanks. Many points to discuss.
A would say a spiritual body. But this is some murky water to explore.
"... be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28 NIV
Hell being Gehenna in this verse. And who was the audience for this quote? Believers, or unbelievers?
And who is "the One"? Actually the NT Greek has only the definite article, "the".
The word "One" is inserted in English to aid understanding. (somewhat) - LOL
A Bible search on the term "realm of the dead" is very revealing, 29 references in the NIV translation.
Two of the references are in the book of Acts. And one in Ecclesiastes chapter 9 (vs 10) the famous "soul sleep" chapter.
Unless you mean it is to prove God is merciful. But I suspect that's not what you meant?
None will be lost from my perspective.
It hinges on the definition of the word "judgement" in my view.
Believers will have a rewards judgement correct? Burning away the wood, hay and stubble,
More to consider, yes!
A would say a spiritual body. But this is some murky water to explore.
Slight misquote there.
"... be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28 NIV
Hell being Gehenna in this verse. And who was the audience for this quote? Believers, or unbelievers?
And who is "the One"? Actually the NT Greek has only the definite article, "the".
The word "One" is inserted in English to aid understanding. (somewhat) - LOL
A Bible search on the term "realm of the dead" is very revealing, 29 references in the NIV translation.
Two of the references are in the book of Acts. And one in Ecclesiastes chapter 9 (vs 10) the famous "soul sleep" chapter.
Agree.
Agree.
Disagree,
Unless you mean it is to prove God is merciful. But I suspect that's not what you meant?
Lost lives?
None will be lost from my perspective.
There is something to that.
It hinges on the definition of the word "judgement" in my view.
Believers will have a rewards judgement correct? Burning away the wood, hay and stubble,
Agree.
See my comment above. (realm of the dead = a place)
Still a public judgment. Plenty to fear, but not ultimately. "... every idle word..."
Agree!
There are three biblical views of the final judgement. All three contradict each other.
ewq1938
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Which is a reference to the LOF.
There are three Greek words translated "hell": Geenna, Hades, and Tartaroo.
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
1067
1067 geenna {gheh'-en-nah}
of Hebrew origin 01516 and 02011; TDNT - 1:657,113; n f
AV - hell 9, hell fire + 3588 + 4442 3; 12
1) Hell is the place of the future punishment call "Gehenna" or
"Gehenna of fire". This was originally the valley of Hinnom,
south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the
city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and
their future destruction.
This word is the type of hell that is the final punishment, known as the lake of fire in Revelation.
Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
86
86 hades {hah'-dace}
from 1 (as negative particle) and 1492; TDNT - 1:146,22; n pr loc
AV - hell 10, grave 1; 11
1) name Hades or Pluto, the god of the lower regions
2) Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead
3) later use of this word: the grave, death, hell
In Biblical Greek it is associated with Orcus, the infernal regions,
a dark and dismal place in the very depths of the earth, the common
receptacle of disembodied spirits. Usually Hades is just the abode of
the wicked, Lu. 16:23, Rev. 20:13,14; a very uncomfortable place. TDNT.
This is not the same hell, but is where the unsaved dead dwell until the day of judgement. Its known as purgatory, death and the grave.
This "hell" is what is cast into and destroyed by the other "Hell" ie: the lake of fire:
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5020
5020 tartaroo {tar-tar-o'-o}
from Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hades);; v
AV - cast down to hell 1; 1
1) the name of the subterranean region, doleful and dark, regarded by
the ancient Greeks as the abode of the wicked dead, where they suffer
punishment for their evil deeds; it answers to Gehenna of the Jews
2) to thrust down to Tartarus, to hold captive in Tartarus
This is the third word and is a holding place for very evil souls. It is also known as the pit in Revelation where satan is held for 1000 years. It is a special place within Hades.
St. SteVen
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St. SteVen said:
Slight misquote there.
"... be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28 NIV
Hell being Gehenna in this verse.
Your explanation comes from the presupposition of Damnationism. (a forever burning hell)
How would your explanation change in view of either Annihilationism, or Christian Universalism? (both actually)
The view of Annihilationism would mean that the fire was temporary.
And from the view of Christian Universalism, that the fire was corrective, purifying, and restorative.
Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears?
For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.
Slight misquote there.
"... be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28 NIV
Hell being Gehenna in this verse.
Thanks for your thoughtful and detailed response.
Your explanation comes from the presupposition of Damnationism. (a forever burning hell)
How would your explanation change in view of either Annihilationism, or Christian Universalism? (both actually)
The view of Annihilationism would mean that the fire was temporary.
And from the view of Christian Universalism, that the fire was corrective, purifying, and restorative.
Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears?
For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
St. SteVen said:
Slight misquote there.
"... be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28 NIV
Hell being Gehenna in this verse.
Believers, or unbelievers? Seems like believers. How does that alter your view of salvation?
Matthew 10:26-30 NIV
“So do not be afraid of them, for there is nothing concealed that
will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known.
27 What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight;
what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs.
28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.
Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny?
Yet not one of them will fall to the ground outside your Father’s care.[a]
30 And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
Slight misquote there.
"... be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28 NIV
Hell being Gehenna in this verse.
And I suppose the other thing to consider is who is the audience Jesus was speaking to in Matthew 10:28 ?
Believers, or unbelievers? Seems like believers. How does that alter your view of salvation?
Matthew 10:26-30 NIV
“So do not be afraid of them, for there is nothing concealed that
will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known.
27 What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight;
what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs.
28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul.
Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny?
Yet not one of them will fall to the ground outside your Father’s care.[a]
30 And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
There is another view.
In revelation the beast and his followers are tortured eternally in the lake of fire.
For this to be significant, it suggests most sinners are actually destroyed not tortured.
If you take a sinner who stays lost in their sin and never resolves the contradictions and ignores God rather than accepts His reality and blasphemes Him openly, a short life which is justly given a short punishment and then destruction.
This seems to make sense of the two tiered verses of destruction and torture. If sinners get tortured, ie eternal life with pain, this seems disproportionate with scripture were sinners are just killed and eliminated as judgement. Why should sinners be made eternal to torture them when they did not know what they were doing or why, being just chaff blown in the wind.
This also resolves the meaning of the seed and the sower. If the word does not change ones life and bears fruit in ones soul, then one is lost, dysfunctional and burnt like weeds at the final judgement. Taking that which does not work and exalting it to eternity seems unjust and without purpose.
God bless you
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
I do think a lot of symbolism in the book of Revelation is just that--symbolism. But symbols do represent some reality, and we have to figure out what that is.
I think you're right that in some sense we're judged in our death. I also believe we're being judged as we live. But the GWTJ does appear to have a time, as in "there's a time and a season for everything." There must be a time when a final sentence is rendered. We may be judged today, but our reward comes later.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
To me the question to ask - to see if you have consistency - is, What is the sort of life the righteous have?
Matthew 25:46 KJV
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
This shows the same word for both places, "aionion". Young translates this "age-during". The punishment of the wicked is described in the same way as the life of the righteous, so my question is, how long is the life of the righteous?
Much love!
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