Who Really Are The 144,000?

[jeffweeder]

Jesus through his salvation and the power of his cross, makes obvious who the 144000 are . They are the sum total of those of faith who prepared themselves prior to the Lords first appearing. Jesus atonement gives them the only license and credibility to be seen as such, that they may be saved.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Referencing post #102:
A kind of First fruits is correct, but they, the symbolic 144,000, were under the altar of Remembrance, being the OC.
Rev. 6:9-11 proves that God did not forget those who died in faith of "the Promise to come", he remembered them. Malachi 3:16.
Go see Simeon and Nathanael in the NT, and you will see their faith in action under the OC, just before Jesus' death and resurrection.

Are you saying that Jesus did not die for them also, who were of faith under the OC.??

I am not aware of the 144k being referred to as under the altar

 

[TribulationSigns]

You've just shown you anti-Semitism hatred against Jews. No need for any further remarks from someone like you.

False accusation.

You do not know who the Jews are in Christ, don't you? Read the verses yourself:

Rom 2:28-29
(28) For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
(29) But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

All the saved Jews from the Old Testament and all saved Gentiles in the New Testament are SPIRITUALLY JEWS, IN CHRIST. That is all that counts to get into New Jersualem! That is who I am talking about.


Anti-Semitism? Boy, you are really confused.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You ought to be able figure out who the natural branches are etc. etc. The Word speaks for itself. This is no mystery. It does however refute your claim.

Here is the mystery.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Oh. Ok. Care to name your god?

When I see talk like this and see your level of scriptural understanding, it doesn't match up.

Ummm. I'm reading your current post which no doubt is inspiring. All I've seen is barrage of out context scriptures that really proves nothing and of course the attacks.

That's just it. Nothing needs to be discerned. The 144,000 are EXACTLY who God says they are which are firstfruits of a harvest. Why draw a false conclusion when there is nothing to solve.


Personal attacks? I guess I hurt your feelings when you tried to roll those two feasts into one conclusion, and I merely posted the rest of the verses that disproved your nonsense.

I guess this is where you want me to post some out of context scripture that proves nothing like you have been doing.

Oh, I saw your claim of the teaching of the Holy Spirit, but I know the teaching of men when I see it.

Actually I quote scripture quite often. I just don't post a bunch of out of context ramblings.


Exactly. I assume that the Word of God means what it says, and we don't need any private interpretation, like the Church has replaced Israel. When God said that Israel would be regathered, that's what He meant. Oh, and He kept His Word despite the lack of faith of many.


Or as you said you went through 100 of my posts and realize that you have no answers to the scriptures that I am going to post which completely dismantles your teachings. The Word is like that. Here's a bone for you......

Hebrews 412 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

...also the word of God frames the church age in "the times of the gentiles completed " and The tribulation period as "jacobs Trouble," or "Israel's trouble".
IOW, Replacement theology removes the understanding of the PURPOSE of the trib.

 

[The Light]

You don't interpret prophecy by following and literally transposing history's physical people, places and things into it, rather you interpret prophecy by following and Spiritually transposing history's people, places, and things into it--according to God's defining it.

God gives many plain facts that should not be spiritualized. When scripture is spiritualized, the true meaning is lost. We will know when God is defining something as it will be clear.

Likewise, when God prophesied that in the future a place called Babylon would fall, it is not of the literal physical place located in Iraq or even Rome, it was of a place that would Spiritually become as Babylon was defined in Scripture.

Both will fall.

Jeremiah 50
The word that the Lord spake against Babylon and against the land of the Chaldeans by Jeremiah the prophet.

Revelation 17
And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

5 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.

6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

These people, places and things were not to be understood as a prophecy of very literal people, places and things, but to be understood in spirit and truth. The prophecies were meant to be understood "exactly" as God had always meant for them to be understood. Not as a man might surmise they should be understood like you do.

These prophecies concerning Babylon are literal. It involves literal places and literal people.

Becaucse you are making the SAME ERROR made by the Jewish leaders at Christ's first advent. They were literally looking for Christ to establish a literal Kingdom in physical Israel, and for Him to literally free the Jewish people from captivity under Roman rule, and for Elijah the prophet to literally come back before the Messiah. Like many today, especially the Premillennialists and pre-tribs, couldn't see the forest for the trees.

Christ will return to set up His literal kingdom on earth just as the Jew were looking for. However, they have been literally blinded just as the Word says they are. They rejected the chief corner stone just as the Word literally said they would. And in the future when the fullness of the Gentiles (Pretribulation rapture) comes in, they will have their eyes literally opened.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

They will literally become jealous of the Gentiles
Romans 11
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

When the time of Jacobs trouble begins after the pretribulation rapture of the Church, many of the 12 tribes across the earth will realize what happened.
Jeremiah 8
20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

All literal.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Statements like this, put all of your interpretations into question.
The Jews; the House of Judah, consists of just the two tribes; Judah and Benjamin. Some of the other ten tribes have joined them and some; plus gentiles too, still do so today. They practise Judaism and become Jews.

The 144.000 are 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes. We have lost the identity of the House of Israel and only God really knows who and where they all are. Amos 9:9
But because Jesus was sent to save that House of Israel, Matthew 15:25, we can be sure that the majority of the Christian peoples must be descended from ancient Israel. Proved by how they were exiled to the Caucasus region of Assyria and we of the Caucasian Western, nations were the people who accepted the Christian Gospel.
If, as some like to think; that Israel is only those who claim to be Jews, then Jesus' mission failed.

"Statements like this, put all of your interpretations into question."

Yep You got some interpretation issues for sure.
You can not just skip rom 11

God did not need to do that.
He sent Jesus to save us, people from every tribe, race, nation and language, but mainly people whose ancestry is lost and kept hidden from us. However; there is historical, archaeological, heraldic AND Biblical evidence of the fact that we of the Western, Caucasian peoples ARE the descendants of Jacob. We are the uncountable multitude, as many as the sand of the sea, who have received the Blessings given by Moses and by Jacob to his sons.

We must not conflate the Jews, who have wrongly usurped the name of Israel, with the true Israelites of God.

Let me get this straight,
The 144k are not really 144k ethnic Jews?
The jewish tribes vividly depicted are something else?
are they first fruits,or is that also something else.?
Are they the only ones sealed in their foreheads, or is that also in need of interpretation?

Not being smart alec, but are you pauline only?

 

[Keraz]

Yep You got some interpretation issues for sure.
You can not just skip rom 11

I understand Romans 11 quite well. It says that the natural Jewish, branches were cut off and can only be re-grafted by their conversion to Christianity. Which is nowhere said to happen, just a few ; a remnant will do so.

Let me get this straight,
The 144k are not really 144k ethnic Jews?
The jewish tribes vividly depicted are something else?

What you haven't got straight, is the Biblically detailed separation of Judah and Israel. they are mentioned as different entities in over 160 Bible passages. Jesus came to save the lost House of Israel. The House of Judah received Him not and they still refuse Jesus.

I see the 144k, as being 12,000 X 12, selected by Jesus, Rev 14:1, out of the great multitude of Christian peoples, who will have been divided into twelve divisions, each named after a son of Jacob.

Not being smart alec, but are you pauline only?

I am Bible only. I use all of the prophetic Word to obtain a picture of what God has planned for the future of His Christian peoples.
It is for them; us, to be His faithful people on earth, displaying His glory and proclaiming the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Ezekiel 39:25-29
THAT is our destiny and our great privilege.

 

[Earburner]

For Brethren in Christ that are not... deceived:

Jesus Christ gave His servants the God-given right to self-defense.

It is written in Luke 22 where He commanded His disciples, those who had an extra coat, or money, etc., to go BUY A SWORD.

Two of the disciples held up 2 swords, and He said that was enough.


Jesus speaking:

Luke 22:35-36
35 And He said unto them, "When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing?" And they said, "Nothing."

36 Then said He unto them, "But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
KJV


So don't allow anyone, brethren in Christ, to tell you that you haven't the God-given right to own a weapon and use it in self-defense of your person, or your family, or you home, or even your country!

If you fear having a weapon to protect yourself, then don't expect God to miraculously show up to protect against thugs coming at you. He gave you the RIGHT to ARM yourself, so why not listen to Him?

In Luke 22:35-36, Judas secured his own "purse" of 30 pcs. of silver by betraying Jesus.

It was Judas who was being spoken about, that it was he that should buy a sword, of which when he came later to arrest Jesus, they came with swords and staves. Mat. 26:42, Mark 14:43, John 28:3.
Broadly speaking, Judas surely did "buy" a sword, through the Jews, who had swords.

However, Jesus said this about all manner of weaponry for defense.
Mat. 26[52] Then said Jesus unto him [Peter], put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Of course there is much more to say about this, such as loving our enemies!

 

[Earburner]

You've gone too far. You are wrongly spiritualizing just about every one of God's Promises specifically to the seed of Israel at the coming of His future Kingdom under Jesus Christ.

Haven't you ever read Jeremiah 31 where God promised that Israel involving the seed would never cease being a nation forever? Even Apostle Paul in Romans 10 told you that all Israel will be saved; that the majority of Jews have been spiritually blinded by God's Own Hand, not their's. Did you forget to read that while you quoted Paul?

Here's a Truth in God's Word that you need to realize, instead playing doctrines of men...

If there is no LITERAL inheritance of a future LITERAL KINGDOM ON EARTH involving the believing 'seed' of Israel, then there could not be a spiritual inheritance for anyone.

It is terrible, even horrible, that you fail to understand that just as Christ's Church is made up of BOTH believing Israelites and believing Gentiles, they BOTH INHERIT THE PROMISES TO ISRAEL together. This is even what Apostle Paul said in Galatians 3 about our INHERITING WITH FAITHFUL ABRAHAM!

So there's @Keraz with his mostly Israel seed inheritance ideas, and then you on the other extreme with a 'spiritual' inheritance only up in the clouds somewhere! Neither idea follows God's Word, as the meek shall inherit the earth!

You are not very meek, if you think that you should arm yourself with weapons "to save yourself". Don't you trust God with your life, in that nothing can happen against you without the Father's will allowing it??
Becareful of whom you are calling deceived.

By the way, the only thing that we shall inherit into eternity and for eternity is our "earthen vessels" made to be Immortal, having the same ability as Jesus, to be physical and/or spiritual at will.

 

[Earburner]

I am not aware of the 144k being referred to as under the altar

It's a systemic and problematic situation, whereby "church-ianity" ("the wisdom of men" 1 Cor. 2:5) has trained us to think that all of Revelation was written for the far future, even to the point of extracting many prophetic words from Daniel of 2500 years ago, and erroneously applying them to Revelation.

Only men think in the isolated and segmented forms of past, present and future. However, God from His Eternity, thinks in the past, present and future, all at the same time. Only by "the mind of Christ within us", are we able to perceive His meanings, through His use of our words of our own language(s).

The book of Daniel was primarily written for the nation of Israel, being the "Age of Indignation", as the book of Revelation is written primarily for the church, being the manifestation of the "Age of God's Grace".

Originally, before He sent His Son, God was inclined to smite the earth with a curse.
If it wasn't for the joint ministry of the two anointed witnesses , being John the Baptist and Jesus, God would have ended it all right then and there. Zech. 4:14.
Malachi 4
[5] Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
[6] And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

So then, ever since Jesus' death and resurrection and Pentecost, God does not see any difference between Jew and Gentile. Therefore, under His Age of Grace, through the NC of Jesus, there is no such thing of Jews being separated from the Gentiles as deserving any kind of special favoritism from God. Rom. 10
[12] For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Edit: On the day the nation of Israel crucified to death their promised Messiah, all other promises that God prophesied for them, became null and void, and shall not be fulfilled.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I understand Romans 11 quite well. It says that the natural Jewish, branches were cut off and can only be re-grafted by their conversion to Christianity. Which is nowhere said to happen, just a few ; a remnant will do so.

What you haven't got straight, is the Biblically detailed separation of Judah and Israel. they are mentioned as different entities in over 160 Bible passages. Jesus came to save the lost House of Israel. The House of Judah received Him not and they still refuse Jesus.

I see the 144k, as being 12,000 X 12, selected by Jesus, Rev 14:1, out of the great multitude of Christian peoples, who will have been divided into twelve divisions, each named after a son of Jacob.

I am Bible only. I use all of the prophetic Word to obtain a picture of what God has planned for the future of His Christian peoples.
It is for them; us, to be His faithful people on earth, displaying His glory and proclaiming the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Ezekiel 39:25-29
THAT is our destiny and our great privilege.

1 The 12 tribes are ethnically designated. They are ethnic Jews.
2 It clearly says they will be grafted back in LATER...OUTSIDE the gentile church. Vividly declared.
3 You made up, out of thin air, your placement of the 144k as nothing to do with ethnic Jews...you literally made that up with some Judah/Israel non applicable sentences.
4 Your claim to understand rom 11 is not true. By omission, you have formed a doctrine. You omit the components of rom 11. Then claim expertise.
Why are there people on here that are clearly replacement theology, but will not admit it??????

 

[rebuilder 454]

It's a systemic and problematic situation, whereby "church-ianity" ("the wisdom of men" 1 Cor. 2:5) has trained us to think that all of Revelation was written for the far future, even to the point of extracting many prophetic words from Daniel of 2500 years ago, and erroneously applying them to Revelation.

Only men think in the isolated and segmented forms of past, present and future. However, God from His Eternity, thinks in the past, present and future, all at the same time. Only by "the mind of Christ within us", are we able to perceive His meanings, through His use of our words of our own language(s).

The book of Daniel was primarily written for the nation of Israel, being the "Age of Indignation", as the book of Revelation is written primarily for the church, being the manifestation of the "Age of God's Grace".

Originally, before He sent His Son, God was inclined to smite the earth with a curse.
If it wasn't for the joint ministry of the two anointed witnesses , being John the Baptist and Jesus, God would have ended it all right then and there. Zech. 4:14.
Malachi 4
[5] Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
[6] And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

So then, ever since Jesus' death and resurrection and Pentecost, God does not see any difference between Jew and Gentile. Therefore, under His Age of Grace, through the NC of Jesus, there is no such thing of Jews being separated from the Gentiles as deserving any kind of special favoritism from God. Rom. 10
[12] For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Edit: On the day the nation of Israel crucified to death their promised Messiah, all other promises that God prophesied for them, became null and void, and shall not be fulfilled.

What a reckless, non biblical, impossible to defend position.
None of your doctrine rings true.

More poorly thought out , non biblical replacement theology

 

[Earburner]

What a reckless, non biblical, impossible to defend position.
None of your doctrine rings true.

More poorly thought out , non biblical replacement theology

Why so many do not study, digest and comprehend all of 1 Cor. 2, is primarily due to their inability and/or unwillingness to depart from being taught by "the wisdom of men", instead of "the mind of Christ, that is within them",....that is if He is within them!

I might expect that your words "wreckless" and "non biblical", said against me, equate with the word "foolishness". But then that would be against you, and not me.
1 Cor. 2
[14] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[covenantee]

However, they have been literally blinded just as the Word says they are. They rejected the chief corner stone just as the Word literally said they would. And in the future when the fullness of the Gentiles (Pretribulation rapture) comes in, they will have their eyes literally opened.

So they were literally blinded in their literal eyes.

Was that in one eye, or both?

Did God use patches to blind them?

Did they have seeing eye dogs to help them?

You're not being literal.

 

[The Light]

So they were literally blinded in their literal eyes.

Was that in one eye, or both?

Did God use patches to blind them?

Did they have seeing eye dogs to help them?

You're not being literal.

LOL. Forgot something............Didn't EYE.

 

[covenantee]

LOL. Forgot something............Didn't EYE.

You're literally unable to literally answer the literal questions.

And you claim to be a literalist.

 

[The Light]

You're literally unable to literally answer the literal questions.

And you claim to be a literalist.

EYE answered........literally...........

 

[covenantee]

EYE answered........literally...........

The evil EYE.

 

[Keraz]

On the day the nation of Israel crucified to death their promised Messiah, all other promises that God prophesied for them, became null and void, and shall not be fulfilled.

It was the nation of Judah, who killed their Messiah.
Gods Promises will be fulfilled ; to the real Israelites of God, the faithful Christian peoples from every tribe, race, nation and language.

The 12 tribes are ethnically designated. They are ethnic Jews.

How come then, that most of the citizens of the Jewish State of Israel, are only Jewish by their faith in Judaism, or simply by their own declaration? There is no documentation or real proof that any of them actually descended from Judah or Jacob.

It clearly says they will be grafted back in LATER...OUTSIDE the gentile church. Vividly declared.

Hopelessly wrong.
Romans 11:19-24 says they were lopped off the 'Olive Tree;, and CAN be re-grafted back. We are told that only a small remnant will do that. Isaiah 6:15, Romans 9:27

your placement of the 144k as nothing to do with ethnic Jews.

God's faithful Christian peoples have nothing to do with ethnicity. Ephesians 2:11-18
It is your determination to have the Jews restored, that is error and is never said to happen.

 

[The Light]

The evil EYE.

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