Does Christian Universalism sidestep the justice of God?

[St. SteVen]

I suppose I should weigh in on my own topic. Mostly been facilitating the discussion so far.

We need to ask, what is the Wrath of God?....what is its nature and how are men affected?

This was a good question/comment right up front in post #2.
Reminded me of this scripture.

Lamentations 3:22-23 NIV
Because of the Lord’s great love we are not consumed,
for his compassions never fail.
23 They are new every morning;
great is your faithfulness.

How can God's justice be fulfilled in UR if everyone is saved in the end?

Is the wrath of God absent in Christian Universalism?

Let's discuss. Thanks.

I suppose I wouldn't have launched this topic if I didn't believe that
God's justice would be fulfilled in Universal Reconciliation.

... Mercy triumphs over judgment. - James 2:13 NIV

The tendency in Christianity is to view the judgment as a manifestation of
God's wrath AGAINST humankind, that were created in his image.

But how should the God who commanded us NOT to take revenge act?
Yes, he will repay, but from my perspective, that doesn't have to mean lashing out
at us in unbridled fury. God is love. How does love respond to a wrong done?

What did Jesus teach us about godly behavior? We are to love our enemies.
Turn the other cheek, Go the extra mile. Pray for those who persecute you,
that you may be children of your Father in heaven. - Matthew 5:44-45

How should this GODLY behavior be manifested in God the Father?
Would he tell us to love our enemies while he incinerates his own?
I thought he hated hypocrisy. Is he not abounding in mercy?

That being said, he will certainly deal rightly with us. Every idle word and
every selfish deed will be answered for. We will be required to reconcile with the
one who knows us inside and out. There will be no escape from his inquiry,

The great physician will do major surgery on us to remove every bad thing.
A miracle of restoration for a soul that is literally welded to sin. (body of death)

Therefore I view God's justice as being done in each of us individually.
To the degree that it will satisfy the hurt of others we have caused.
Correction, restoration, healing and redemption for all of humankind.

A triumph of grace.

@Patrick1966 @RayaJade @Chadrho

 

[St. SteVen]

God is "self-serving." He said, "You shall have no other gods before Me."

Always amazes me that Christians would say such awful things about God without even realizing it.

Philippians 2:3-8 NIV
Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit.
Rather, in humility value others above yourselves,
4 not looking to your own interests
but each of you to the interests of the others.
5 In your relationships with one another,
have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God
something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

 

[St. SteVen]

To "restore everything" is to restore the entire nation, state, and country, though these terms may be somewhat synonymous. Restoring "everything" means farms in the country, businesses in the city, prosperity in child-bearing, blessing in long life, etc. etc. Removing pests and sicknesses, ending enemy challenges--you get the picture.

So... you have a problem with that?

 

[St. SteVen]

It does not mean "everything" as in "everything." ;) It may sound like that, but the initiated recognize that seemingly all-encompassing generalizations are, upon closer look, applicable to the thing that qualifies it. "Everything" in the land of Israel, but only with respect to those God chose to serve Him. And that's because the broader context defines who is in covenant with God, and who is not.

Perhaps you need more than one verse?

The restoration of all things

Matt 19:28 Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Acts 3:21 Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

Rom 8:20-21 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

Romans 5:10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

Romans 11:36 For from him and through him and for him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen.

Isa 65:17 "See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.

 

[Wrangler]

t does not mean "everything" as in "everything." ;) It may sound like that, but the initiated recognize that seemingly all-encompassing generalizations are, upon closer look, applicable to the thing that qualifies it. "Everything" in the land of Israel, but only with respect to those God chose to serve Him. And that's because the broader context defines who is in covenant with God, and who is not.

This is why it is so hard for outsiders and unbelievers to understand.

 

[Patrick1966]

Has it occurred to you, you give the devil a front row seat even though it's through mockery? He loves to consume our thinking anyway he can and he laughs with glee when he gets those who call themselves the followers of Jesus to do his work.

It's mainstream Christianity that elevates Satan above Jesus by deeming that the "Gates of Hell" WILL prevail and that Jesus will not only be incapable of bringing all to him, but that he will then torture them FOREVER.

That is their warped theology, not mine.

 

[MatthewG]

Would you be surprised if you found out you were wrong, @Patrick1966 when you died and went onward to God? I rather trust God, than man. Wouldn't you?

 

[MatthewG]

So many people fight and divide over this stuff, rather than seeking truth. One side just desires to win over the other.

It's embarrassing. What is truth?

 

[quietthinker]

Am I in the same boat, or are you more comfortable with the way I am responding/presenting?

No, you're not in the same boat mate.
We need to speak well of God in preference to poorly of Satan. To do this using the scriptures, it is helpful to understand some Hebrew rationale. It goes a long way to clear up misconceptions held by many Christians in modern times.

 

[face2face]

I've cited scripture to you while you cite your opinions.

What does 1 Timothy 4:10 mean when Paul said that Jesus is the savior of ALL men? Is Paul wrong? Does Jesus actually NOT save all men?

Not only have you proved to be wrong on Rev 14:11 because you cannot see the truth of Isa 34:10 but now you have gone deep into the darkness of pride.

Imagine the possibilities of being free and consider the doors that open to you once you can rightly divide the Word of Truth?

F2F

 

[face2face]

So many people fight and divide over this stuff, rather than seeking truth. One side just desires to win over the other.

It's embarrassing. What is truth?

Some people resist to their own hurt! Others will make an example of them so that other more genuine believers can be shown what is truth. The issue here is Patrick forced his own meaning on Rev 14:11 and when shown its not literal from Isa 34:10 rather than admitting his error we have seen him try to dodge and weave his way out - I'm holding his feet to the fire until such time as he admits his error and we all can be on our way. It's a sin to leave a person in their own ignorance Matt! You must make an attempt to snatch them from the fire so to speak.
Also, it's not about being right, its about the Word of God being right - the Word is its own interpreter - no stronger case than the one shown.
F2F

 

[face2face]

That's a good question.
Jesus paid the death penalty for all of humankind.
The work of the Atonement on our behalf was a complete work.

Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

@MatthewG read the above from SteVen. Can you see how he forces a literal reading of the text? He does so at the expense of many other passages. Now all who are saved will be justified this is correct, so the Word is upheld...its in the interpretation of the text that requires skill.
Verse 19 is a problem because ALL is not Many and Many is not All...and even if verse 19 had the word ALL which is what SteVen would want due to his bias, he cannot erase all the other Scriptures that teach many are called to be in Christ but only a few saved. Keep in mind the largest number Paul could conceived was 144,000 to represent the saints of God, though we know the number is as the Stars of Heaven and the Sand of the Seashore!
F2F

 

[MatthewG]

Steven ignores me. Its fine.

everyone on here thats been in and through all the the new testament and learned some of the old should be teaching christ; but thats my opinion @face2face.

Just like my grandpa Soondoon.

 

[face2face]

Getting back to the OP; any claim of Universal Salvation must explain:

1. The 2nd Death
2. Lake of Fire

So far, I haven't heard any rationalization for the aligment of these 3 points.

The Lake of Fire is a figurative term for the total destruction of the enemy at the end times. It's not literal and its not the imaginary place Christians have made it out to be. Universal salvationism is in the same class as those who believe the earth is flat!
F2F

 

[Jack]

The Teaching on hell as a place of eternal conscious punishment, by Jesus Christ Himself; and the fact that Jesus is very clear that there are FEW who will enter by the Narrow Gate, renders "Universal Salvation", HERESY!

The Holy Bible is The Infallible, Inerrant Word of God, and has no errors or contradictions, which US will require that it does.

Amen brother!!!

 

[face2face]

Steven ignores me. Its fine.

everyone on here thats been in and through all the the new testament and learned some of the old should be teaching christ; but thats my opinion @face2face.

Just like my grandpa Soondoon.

I'm not interested in the thousands of youtube clips out there...if you speak at all, it must be according to God's Word!
F2F

 

[MatthewG]

All the best, @face2face and to everyone else cause finally back to working i dont care people fighti g and bickerin on here.


Jesus christ isnt a clique we join where one side is right and one side is wrong.


Arent all one in Christ? Despite the doctrines they hold?

 

[quietthinker]

I suppose I should weigh in on my own topic. Mostly been facilitating the discussion so far.

This was a good question/comment right up front in post #2.
Reminded me of this scripture.

Lamentations 3:22-23 NIV
Because of the Lord’s great love we are not consumed,
for his compassions never fail.
23 They are new every morning;
great is your faithfulness.

I suppose I wouldn't have launched this topic if I didn't believe that
God's justice would be fulfilled in Universal Reconciliation.

... Mercy triumphs over judgment. - James 2:13 NIV

The tendency in Christianity is to view the judgment as a manifestation of
God's wrath AGAINST humankind, that were created in his image.

But how should the God who commanded us NOT to take revenge act?
Yes, he will repay, but from my perspective, that doesn't have to mean lashing out
at us in unbridled fury. God is love. How does love respond to a wrong done?

What did Jesus teach us about godly behavior? We are to love our enemies.
Turn the other cheek, Go the extra mile. Pray for those who persecute you,
that you may be children of your Father in heaven. - Matthew 5:44-45

How should this GODLY behavior be manifested in God the Father?
Would he tell us to love our enemies while he incinerates his own?
I thought he hated hypocrisy. Is he not abounding in mercy?

That being said, he will certainly deal rightly with us. Every idle word and
every selfish deed will be answered for. We will be required to reconcile with the
one who knows us inside and out. There will be no escape from his inquiry,

The great physician will will do major surgery on us to remove every bad thing.
A miracle of restoration for a soul that is literally welded to sin. (body of death)

Therefore I view God's justice as being done in each of us individually.
To the degree that it will satisfy the hurt of others we have caused.
Correction, restoration, healing and redemption for all of humankind.

A triumph of grace.

@Patrick1966 @RayaJade @Chadrho

Thoughts and words are creative. We can crush ourselves with constant negative self talk just as we can alienate others or lift them up with words. Satan is not ignorant of this.
Sin destroys us, either slowly or quickly yet it often has the appearance of a solution.

God does not destroy us, we destroy ourselves and others with the encouragement of evil agencies.

Philosophical religious jargon engaged has the appearance of intelligence. Ultimately it's hot air blown out of the end of a digestive tract. It does nothing to draw men to their Redeemer.

 

[MatthewG]

Youtube is a useful tool, God has allowed.

:)

 

[face2face]

Arent all one in Christ? Despite the doctrines they hold?

No, read 1 John 1 - he will tell you!