Why are Bible scholars leaving Christianity?

[quietthinker]

Interesting perspective, and GREAT post, thanks.
"... too opaque and and two, self focused." Wow. Such an interesting observation.
Could you unpack the term "opaque" a bit more, as it relates to "emphasis on spirit and born again"?
Do you see a lack of transparency? Is that what you mean?

By opaque I mean, attributing to the spirit an ego out of control manifested in false humility....ultimately mundane utterances with vagaries of the imagination, as if born again is thereby validated.

 

[quietthinker]

I don't know what you know or have experienced but this thread is about Biblical scholars who left Christianity. Implied is that you suppose they left because they are alway going on about 'the spirit, the spirit' but the evidence in the vids is the opposite. Your posts remind me of these 2 cultural references.

understanding what my post is speaking to is a good place to start Wrangler

 

[keithr]

Bible scholars are leaving Christianity in droves. Why?

I only watched the first two videos (and only half of the second video), but from that I suspect that the main reason they stopped believing was because they had no personal experience of proof.

When I started to get more serious about Christianity, I used to say that I had 99.9% belief in God, but there was always that tiny amount of doubt, that possibility that it was all made up by men. So I used to pray to God that he would increase my faith. Eventually he did that, although not in a way that I had expected! After carrying a heavy load for a long distance I ended up with a back problem that was ongoing for 4 months and not getting any better. Other Chistians laid hands on me and prayed for healing, and I prayed for healing too, but it didn't get any better. Then after 4 months I went to a meeting of an evangelist who had come to my home town (a once in a lifetime event!), and at the end of the meeting he prayed for healing for those that wanted healing from God. I experienced a wonderful tingling feeling enter my head from above and fill down through my torso, that lasted for maybe 10 - 15 seconds and was a very pleasant and enjoyable feeling. After that my back was healed!

The evening before my back was healed, we had a Bible study in my home, and because I had been struggling for months to understand something I asked the pastor who was teaching us, about it, but even he was unable to satisfactorily answer my question. But during the night while I was asleep and having a non-sensical dream, my dream was interupted by three words, then the dream continued. It startled me and I woke up, and I decided that the words (three digits) had to be a page number in my Bible (I only had one Bible at that time!). I went back to sleep, and not having a very good memory it was eventually 4 days later when I remembered while I was at home and had access to my Bible, and when I looked up that page, right at the top of the page was the start of a chapter that was about the subject I had been struggling with - it was an aswer from God! (and also confirmation of Matthew 18:20, "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there I am in the middle of them").

Those two events, that occured on the same day (Saturday early morning and evening), were enough to raise my faith/belief from 99.9% to 100%. I later realised that that was how God had answered my prayers for increased faith. Once you have had a supernatural experience like that (or even more amazing for some people) it is difficut to loose your faith, because it is a constant reminder of the undeniable reality of our God and Saviour. These scholars, however, I suspect never had a supernatural experience, and spending so much time in research outside the Bible, and especially if they start to believe scientists rather than God's written word, they end up having that tiny doubt of faith growing until they decide the evidence (erroneous or true) inconsistent with God's word is more convincing to them than their initial belief in God's word.

Some though, even after having supernatural proof, still end up not believing - Hebrews 3:7-19 (ESV):

(7) Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says, “Today, if you hear his voice,​

(8) do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, on the day of testing in the wilderness,​

(9) where your fathers put me to the test and saw my works for forty years.​

(10) Therefore I was provoked with that generation, and said, ‘They always go astray in their heart; they have not known my ways.’​

(11) As I swore in my wrath, ‘They shall not enter my rest.’”​

(12) Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.​

(13) But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.​

(14) For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.​

(15) As it is said, “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”​

(16) For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses?​

(17) And with whom was he provoked for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness?​

(18) And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient?​

(19) So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief.​

 

[Wrangler]

understanding what my post is speaking to is a good place to start Wrangler

Yea, about that, A is A.

 

[David in NJ]

Thanks for joining the discussion.
I see this common view as problematic. The testimonies of these scholars and others who are leaving the faith
indicate that they truly WERE "Born-Again by the Spirit to begin with.' (to use your description)
I think our knee-jerk reaction is WRONG in many cases.

Did they say they were leaving christianity or that they do not believe Christ is the only Salvation?

There is a difference, as some people are just leaving the 'hoopla' of religion but continue in Christ and His word.

SEE Post #77 as this is the real issue

 

[David in NJ]

Thanks for joining the discussion.
I see this common view as problematic. The testimonies of these scholars and others who are leaving the faith
indicate that they truly WERE "Born-Again by the Spirit to begin with.' (to use your description)
I think our knee-jerk reaction is WRONG in many cases.

Confession = i did not watch the videos and was hoping for you to simply break it down for us as the reasons given for leaving the faith.

So, my 'knee jerk' reaction was based on Scriptural reasons alone = the Point of View that Says it ALL

Today christianity is a business and a occupation = anyone can go to Bible college/universities and receive a Degree in 'Christianity'.

Growing up in religion can also convince a person that they were genuinely SAVED.

As Sister @L3astAm0ngManyB13ss3d said: "anyone can study and quote scripture..."

 

[amadeus]

@amadeus I guess the question really should be what is Eternal life - wouldn't it be the newness of spiritual life? Mark shared a good verse, of the assurance of that life.

That life must be the Holy spirit - life, the Spirit of Christ - within a believer.

If that Life, the Life which Jesus brought, is the Holy Spirit, then what happens when one with the Spirit quenches the Spirit?

However you also bring up a great weight, in the scale of it - as "Every professer in Christ - may not even fully believe in their heart God raised them from the dead", how could they have eternal life with-in them?

May there not be some who have claimed to have eternal Life who are in error either through ignorance or because they claimed something simply to stay with the "in crowd"?

While there is the abstraction exception of those who are out there with no bible, and can only submit themselves to God through the saying "Wow there is someone greater than me - that created all of this life - and bowing the knee and having a change of heart."

How long must a true believer be a Bible student in order to have every answer to every question that any believer or unbeliever might express?

What do you think about these things?

 

[MatthewG]

If that Life, the Life which Jesus brought, is the Holy Spirit, then what happens when one with the Spirit quenches the Spirit?

There flesh reigns just a little more, and the Father chastens to let them know they are doing wrong.

It happened so many time with my relapses, and not only that but also when I was negative or hateful toward a person be it willful language or mindful inside cruelty of hatred - wishing death upon people or wishing misfortunate.

What you about your thoughts?

May there not be some who have claimed to have eternal Life who are in error either through ignorance or because they claimed something simply to stay with the "in crowd"?

What do you mean by "in crowd"?

How long must a true believer be a Bible student in order to have every answer to every question that any believer or unbeliever might express?

I don't believe anyone will have every single answer to every question.

I believe though you express a great question - a bible student should be pleased when they are introduced to the truth and are set free, and have placed God, and Christ in the center of their heart. It's not about doing this or that for a church or making oneself look good. It's about the heart, the looking at another person in love and consideration - without the "flesh" dominating.

What do you think about Jesus and him being the rock ? (If the rock falls on someone it will crush them - when truth is brought by the spirit of truth - it crushes people - they may think you being a big head or meany for example) What if one willingly throws themselves upon the rock, and the let rock break them, (the flesh) and allow the Potter (God) to renew them?

 

[St. SteVen]

I only watched the first two videos (and only half of the second video), but from that I suspect that the main reason they stopped believing was because they had no personal experience of proof.

That certainly helps.
Great testimony post. Thanks so much.

 

[amigo de christo]

Court is different.

Paul talks about if you don't wanna get in trouble don't do bad things. Crimes, that have been caught up in to the legal system is something to thank God for.

However, even when they get to prison, - if they go to a bible study - guess what condemns them? It's the Word. Never should the word be used out of context though... In my opinion.

I realize people really hate homosexuals. so... I dont care if a person is homosexual or not, if they are willingly to sit down and read the bible with me im all about it.

Now if it a homosexual trying to get a 11 year old little boy, then yeah that does need to be addressed with the police invovled.

You gotta find a balance @Wrangler.

NEVER ever should the word be taken out of context . YOU RIGHT .
SO then why do so many DO IT . why do so many try and twist what it clearly says about homosexuality
and make it seem okay . WHY do so many do this with other sins too .
WHY cant we just read it and say it , JUST LIKE ITS WRITTEN .
DONT ye know the unrighteousness will NOT INHERIT the kingdom of GOD
homosexuality IS ON that list . WHY would we dare to lie to them . DONT WE LOVE THEM , DONT WE DESIRE GOOD FOR THEM .
SURE its gonna offend them , BUT AT LEAST SOME OF them might actually hear and repent .
AND IF EVEN ONE DID it was well worth the price paid of whatever happend to me by this world for doing it .
I franklky dont care what this world does to me . I ONLY care that GOD was HONORED GLORIFIED
that CHRIST was honored and glorified and that at least some souls heard and repented .
IT dont matter how much they or anyone else hated me . I was the the worst of the worst
Changed by GOD and now have the desire to see GOOD for all as well . CORRECTION is GOOD .
IF our desire IS GOOD for them . ALL sin , all error must be corrected WITHIN the church .
And the gospel must be preached to all that has breath .

 

[St. SteVen]

Did they say they were leaving christianity or that they do not believe Christ is the only Salvation?

Each one had a different path and a different destination.

There is a difference, as some people are just leaving the 'hoopla' of religion but continue in Christ and His word.

Right. That's a good distinction to make. Reject the institutional church is one thing, walking away from God is ANOTHER.

SEE Post #77 as this is the real issue

I'll check it out.

 

[MatthewG]

NEVER ever should the word be taken out of context . YOU RIGHT .
SO then why do so many DO IT . why do so many try and twist what it clearly says about homosexuality
and make it seem okay . WHY do so many do this with other sins too .
WHY cant we just read it and say it , JUST LIKE ITS WRITTEN .
DONT ye know the unrighteousness will NOT INHERIT the kingdom of GOD
homosexuality IS ON that list . WHY would we dare to lie to them . DONT WE LOVE THEM , DONT WE DESIRE GOOD FOR THEM .
SURE its gonna offend them , BUT AT LEAST SOME OF them might actually hear and repent .
AND IF EVEN ONE DID it was well worth the price paid of whatever happend to me by this world for doing it .
I franklky dont care what this world does to me . I ONLY care that GOD was HONORED GLORIFIED
that CHRIST was honored and glorified and that at least some souls heard and repented .
IT dont matter how much they or anyone else hated me . I was the the worst of the worst
Changed by GOD and now have the desire to see GOOD for all as well . CORRECTION is GOOD .
IF our desire IS GOOD for them . ALL sin , all error must be corrected WITHIN the church .
And the gospel must be preached to all that has breath .

Do you believe God allows people to freely choose, and do you believe that Jesus Christ paid for the sins already? Can a Christian struggle with the flesh and the spirit? Or does a Christian have to be perfect in every single way? Those are good questions to ask yourself friend. If God accepts people only if they are perfect, we are all doomed. Thank God for the Lord Jesus Christ. Those are my thoughts, Amigo.

If God expects you to be perfect in every single way... then your doomed.
If God Loves you only if you're clean 100%, then your doomed.

 

[St. SteVen]

One can have ALL the credentials the world has to offer, in any field of study, and also can be proficient in quoting from Genesis1:1 to the last amen in Revelations , this does not make ANY righteous.

Only those who have been born from above by the Spirit of God are saved. This comes only by a contrite heart and a broken spirit, calling out to God; O' Lord wretched man that I am, save me, a sinner !

Many people today are so selfish and puffed-up with their own importance to even recognize the God of all creation, even in so called Christendom !

Easy for us to label those outside the tribe as evil. (and selfish)
I find some really descent humans in these videos.
Many are recovering from the treatment they received from the church.
Makes you wonder who the real villain is here. ???

@David in NJ

 

[amigo de christo]

Did they say they were leaving christianity or that they do not believe Christ is the only Salvation?

There is a difference, as some people are just leaving the 'hoopla' of religion but continue in Christ and His word.

SEE Post #77 as this is the real issue

Most scholars were never of CHRIST to start with . I didnt say all , i do say MOST .
And they are abandoing even the very gospel now . THEY no longer even believe one must believe to be saved .
Many of them are embracing the idea of another version of GOD , which aint GOD .
This version accepts all paths , the idea is all will be saved , just lovey do .
THEY go by titles like EXVANGELIST , they say things like i was deconstructing for years
THEY say things like the still FOLLOW CHRIST , but not the bible , not that version .
THIS IS ANTI CHRIST AT WORK david . And as i said most of them never truly believed on CHRIST to begin with .
Folks better beware the voice of he who cometh as though he be light , BUT IS DARKNESS doing all to portray itself as thoough
it is LIGHT and enlightment . Its voice crys to the wayward children , COME YE and enter thou into this all inclusive love god .
Come and bow with love and acceptance and be thou thine own GOD . determine thy own truth and to thy truth be true .
And it bows before one alter . AN alter that all wayward children of all religoins , of atheism and all
can bow too . THEY CALL IT LOVE . but its of the world and of the dragon , its a love that cometh of the world
and will honor the world . ITS LOVE will call the TRUTH of GOD LIES and HATE .
ITS LOVE will make the GOD of the old test seem as satan . And it will cliam to be following JESUS
but if we examine its jesus , take note that one aint captilized , we will see its jesus SEEMETH TO HATE THE BIBLICAL JESUS .
ITS jesus , take note its not captilized , will use SOME of JESUS teachings but take them out of text
to produce the most heneious and vile peoples who dishonor GOD and CHRIST and yet believe they have the LOVE of GOD
ITS NOT LOOKING GOOD my friend . WE BESS STICK IN THE BIBLE .

 

[amigo de christo]

Do you believe God allows people to freely choose, and do you believe that Jesus Christ paid for the sins already? Can a Christian struggle with the flesh and the spirit? Or does a Christian have to be perfect in every single way? Those are good questions to ask yourself friend. If God accepts people only if they are perfect, we are all doomed. Thank God for the Lord Jesus Christ. Those are my thoughts, Amigo.

If God expects you to be perfect in every single way... then your doomed.
If God Loves you only if you're clean 100%, then your doomed.

I believe in all things we ought to sound JUST like JESUS CHRIST of the bible , the apostels of the bible .
NEITHER Of them ever seemed to take sin lightly but rather corrected with SPEED sin and error if it was seen .
I believe we ought to teach as JESUS did and the apostels did concering SALVATION .
BELIEVE YE was their words . I believe we ought to teach the dire severity of GOD towards those who believe not
I believe we ought to behold BOTH the GOODNESS OF and SEVERITY OF GOD .
I BELIEVE we ought to live by EVERY WORD OF GOD , OF CHRIST , OF THE SPIRIT .
THUS I BELIEVE its HIGH TIME FOLKS GET back into the BIBLE and actually start learning THAT .

 

[St. SteVen]

Confession = i did not watch the videos and was hoping for you to simply break it down for us as the reasons given for leaving the faith.

I did that in post #7

 

[St. SteVen]

So, my 'knee jerk' reaction was based on Scriptural reasons alone = the Point of View that Says it ALL

Today christianity is a business and a occupation = anyone can go to Bible college/universities and receive a Degree in 'Christianity'.

Growing up in religion can also convince a person that they were genuinely SAVED.

Oftentimes in these presentations it is clear that these folks HAD a genuine faith and commitment.
To claim that they were NEVER one of us is an outlandish accusation. IMHO

 

[MatthewG]

I believe in all things we ought to sound JUST like JESUS CHRIST of the bible , the apostels of the bible .
NEITHER Of them ever seemed to take sin lightly but rather corrected with SPEED sin and error if it was seen .
I believe we ought to teach as JESUS did and the apostels did concering SALVATION .
BELIEVE YE was their words . I believe we ought to teach the dire severity of GOD towards those who believe not
I believe we ought to behold BOTH the GOODNESS OF and SEVERITY OF GOD .
I BELIEVE we ought to live by EVERY WORD OF GOD , OF CHRIST , OF THE SPIRIT .
THUS I BELIEVE its HIGH TIME FOLKS GET back into the BIBLE and actually start learning THAT .

That didn't answer my question, but okay amigo thank you for sharing what you believe.

I don't believe there is any authority to tell people what they can and can't do anymore.

God can convict people by the spirit (if they allow God into there lives), but it is just like you said, to go verse by verse and chapter by chapter to build up a fortified relationship with knowing who Christ is, and the apostles which really helps a person choose for themselves which direction they desire to go.

Cause as far as I can tell God isn't gonna force anyone to do anything they do not want to do.

If you see that somehow in the scripture I would like to take a look at it, however thank you for the encouragement.

 

[amigo de christo]

Do you believe God allows people to freely choose, and do you believe that Jesus Christ paid for the sins already? Can a Christian struggle with the flesh and the spirit? Or does a Christian have to be perfect in every single way? Those are good questions to ask yourself friend. If God accepts people only if they are perfect, we are all doomed. Thank God for the Lord Jesus Christ. Those are my thoughts, Amigo.

If God expects you to be perfect in every single way... then your doomed.
If God Loves you only if you're clean 100%, then your doomed.

OPINIONS WILL CHANGE , if we but follow CHRIST and read that bible for ourselves . THUS
I plead and beg for YOU and all to do just that . GET back into it for you mathew .
Behold and watch how in time your opinions , the ones that were contrary to GOD
will BE CHANGED and become in full agreement WITH GOD . But
will you do what i simply beg and plead for you to do . WILL YOU please go back into the bible
and read and read it with love and hunger after its every word . As a child who simply
has one desire . HONOR GOD and CHRIST above all . FROM that everything else SPRINGS FORTH .
FOR GOD is with the lambs , a new heart he giveth and that heart , LOVETH TRUTH , HIM , CHRIST , ABOVE ALL
and then from that love comes the true love that also actually loves thy neighbor as thyself .
Mathew , Remember these words and may they spring alive and life within you ,
AND that is this , COME YE UNTO ME all ye who do labor and are weary and YE shall find rest for your souls .
NOW GO AND LEARN WHO SAID THAT IN THE BIBLE and then learn and keep learing daily ALL THINGS HE DID teach
and later the apostels did . LOVE and embrace the truth . LOVE and embrace the pure and holy wisdom that cometh of GOD
and not that whichcame of men . DIG mathew . DIG DOWN DEEP , be a hearer and a doer of the WORD
HE who hears and does my SAYINGS is a like a man who DUG DEEP INTO THE EARTH
HAD A REAL GOOD FAT FOUNDATION . and no matter what storm came and comes against that house
it will not fall , that man will not be MOVED . Be encouraged mathew .
REMEMBER the first love , the faith one had at first .WHEN THE HEART HUNGRERED for GOD , HIS TRUTH , HIS EVERY WORD .
RETURN to the bible with a fresh mind and be ready to learn .

 

[amigo de christo]

That didn't answer my question, but okay amigo thank you for sharing what you believe.

I don't believe there is any authority to tell people what they can and can't do anymore.

God can convict people by the spirit, but it is just like you said, to go verse by verse and chapter by chapter to build up a fortified relationship with knowing who Christ is, and the apostles which really helps a person choose for themselves which direction they desire to go.

Cause as far as I can tell God isn't gonna force anyone to do anything they do not want to do.

If you see that somehow in the scripture I would like to take a look at it, however thank you for the encouragement.

THEN read the bible . just do it mathew . Opinions will change and will ALIGN with the HOLY SPIRIT , WITH TRUTH .
You are running on gas that is highly mixed with water . On that you cannot survive and will crash .
GO to , return to , embrace and cling too the pure holy truth in the bible . LEARN it . Let your soul be filled
with the pure green grass of the LORD , let your spirit be renewed .