The 144,000 before God at the end.

[ewq1938]

They are raised at the SAME TIME, that's just Paul trying to reassure them their loved ones would not be left behind in the graves. It clearly states that they all meet in the air and go to be with the Lord.

No, the dead resurrect first, then the rapture of the living happens. That's why this verse says what it does:

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

(ASV) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep.

(BBE) For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are still living at the coming of the Lord, will not go before those who are sleeping.

 

[David in NJ]

The dead raised at the rapture is pretrib. Only the dead In Christ are raised.
After the mil is the GWT Judgement
The general resurrection where all the rest are resurrected.

The dead are NOT raised before His Coming = 1 Thess 4:13-18

1 Thess & 2 Thess are POST-TRIB accounts of His Second Coming.

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
Therefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[The Light]

He doesn't come at the 6th seal.

His coming is marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars. You can say He doesn't come at the 6th seal but the Word of God clearly shows that He does. It's a very, very simple conclusion.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

He remains in heaven opening the last seal.

No. He comes for a harvest in Matthew 24, Revelation 6 at the 6th seal, and Revelation 14. Same exact coming. Then after the harvest, the Lord returns to heaven where he will open the 7th seal.

The seals only tell about future events.

Where do you get this stuff? The first four seals are the beginning of sorrows of Matthew 24. The fifth seal is the great tribulation of Matthew 24, and the 6th seal is the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24.

Jesus tells us about end times in Matthew 24. John tells us about end times in Revelation 6. It's the exact same story of what will happen BEFORE the 7th seal is opened and the wrath of God begins. How are you missing this???????????????????????????????????????

The events of the 6th seal happen in one of the trumps not when any of the seals are opened. Trumps are action, not the seals.

No brother the 6th seal is the coming of Jesus for a harvest. Then the 7th seal is opened, and we see the wrath of God in the trumpets. You have got yourself completely discombobulated, with this line of thought. The 7th seal is the trumpets of wrath. The 1st 6 seals are the tribulation. Tribulation and wrath are NOT THE SAME EVENT.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

No, the dead resurrect first, then the rapture of the living happens. That's why this verse says what it does:

If people actually read all of the chapters they would understand scriptures. Read 1 Thess. and 2 Thess. and look at the overall letters (which is all they were, not meant as scriptures AND we do not even get the Thessalonians letters to Paul). But the gist is these people were in fear their lived ones would be left behind, so Paul, KNOWING this was a lie of Satan tries to ALLEVE this fear by telling them hey their loved ones will be raised first, which I do not believe is factual, we are all raised at the exact same time. He says they are raised first (WINK WINK) then we are CHANGED (means we die and go to heaven as Spirit Men) in the BLINK OF AN EYE, so he says they are raised a blink of an eye before us, GET OUT. Anyone with common sense knows Paul is just trying to alleve their fears. Paul's letters were not meant as "Thus saith the Lord scriptures" his job was as a pastor.

When you get to heaven you will understand Paul was acting as a Pastor, not as a Prophet putting forth Thus Saith the Lord Scriptures. His job was to give hope, teach faith.

 

[ewq1938]

His coming is marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars. You can say He doesn't come at the 6th seal but the Word of God clearly shows that He does. It's a very, very simple conclusion.

More of a simple mistake of interpretation. It does describe the second coming, but the second coming isn't happening at that time. As I said, he remains in heaven to open the 7th seal. He didn't go away for awhile. One must be able to discern prophecy of the second coming from a description of the second coming happening. The 6th seal is prophecy of a future second coming while Rev 19 is actually the second coming.

 

[ewq1938]

He says they are raised first (WINK WINK) then we are CHANGED (means we die and go to heaven as Spirit Men) in the BLINK OF AN EYE

No, to be changed means to be alive and then changed into an immortal. No death is involved in that change.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The dead are resurrected, the living are changed. We shall not all sleep means not all will die.

 

[The Light]

More of a simple mistake of interpretation. It does describe the second coming, but the second coming isn't happening at that time. As I said, he remains in heaven to open the 7th seal. He didn't go away for awhile. One must be able to discern prophecy of the second coming from a description of the second coming happening. The 6th seal is prophecy of a future second coming while Rev 19 is actually the second coming.

Here is the great tribulaiton of Matthew 24 which is the 5th seal.

Revelation 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Here is the exact same coming of Jesus that occurs at the 6th seal, and Matthew 24. You can say it doesn't happen all you want but we have proof that it does happen. The 6th seal is the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24, is the coming of Jesus in Revelation 14.
Revelation 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Somehow the trumpets of wrath have you all screwed up where you are unable to see the obvious. Or I guess it's some see, some don't.

 

[ewq1938]

Here is the exact same coming of Jesus that occurs at the 6th seal, and Matthew 24.

Did the second coming happen in Matthew 24?

 

[David in NJ]

If people actually read all of the chapters they would understand scriptures. Read 1 Thess. and 2 Thess. and look at the overall letters (which is all they were, not meant as scriptures AND we do not even get the Thessalonians letters to Paul). But the gist is these people were in fear their lived ones would be left behind, so Paul, KNOWING this was a lie of Satan tries to ALLEVE this fear by telling them hey their loved ones will be raised first, which I do not believe is factual, we are all raised at the exact same time. He says they are raised first (WINK WINK) then we are CHANGED (means we die and go to heaven as Spirit Men) in the BLINK OF AN EYE, so he says they are raised a blink of an eye before us, GET OUT. Anyone with common sense knows Paul is just trying to alleve their fears. Paul's letters were not meant as "Thus saith the Lord scriptures" his job was as a pastor.

When you get to heaven you will understand Paul was acting as a Pastor, not as a Prophet putting forth Thus Saith the Lord Scriptures. His job was to give hope, teach faith.

WOW

You may well rethink what you are saying here because it is not truth and you speak against the Truth.

 

[The Light]

Did the second coming happen in Matthew 24?

Yes the second coming happens in Matthew 24. All eyes see the coming of the Lord. He remains in the clouds and send His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. They return to heaven for the marriage supper. That why there is a great multitude before the throne in Revelation 7.

Here is the marriage supper with the great multitude in attendance.
Revelation 19
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

Then the armies of heaven return to the earth with the Messiah.

Armageddon happens and the Lord sets up His kingdom on earth.
Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

His return is the second advent where He returns to the earth like He left.

The Lord comes for a harvest at the 6th seal and then the Lord returns for Armageddon and to set up His kingdom at the end of the trumpets (or vials).

 

[ewq1938]

Yes the second coming happens in Matthew 24.

No, it doesn't nor didn't happen back then. Jesus was only describing a future second coming.

The Lord comes for a harvest at the 6th seal and then the Lord returns for Armageddon and to set up His kingdom at the end of the trumpets (or vials).

That's two second comings which isn't biblical. He comes once more, not twice or more times. He comes, the resurrection happens and then the rapture. They are moments apart.

 

[brightfame52]

Has the Church Replaced Israel ?​

Rom 9:6

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

No, The Church has always been Israel, but not Israel after the flesh, or the physical nation of Israel See within the physical nation of Israel was always a remnant according to the election of Grace, which is also Israel. Now under the Old Covenant Spiritual Israel, the Body of Christ was mostly comprised of saved jewish Christians. They would usually be persecuted by the non christian jews in the nation Matt 5:12


Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets[Believers in Crist] which were before you.

Lk 13:34

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

Now under the New Covenant, Body of Christ Israel the election of Grace has been multiplied by saving and grafting in multitudes into Spiritual Israel, which is still the Body of Christ ! So The Body of Christ, Israel according to the Spirit, the Election of Grace is not a replacement, it always has been, its now clarified who they are.

 

[No Pre-TB]

Somehow the trumpets of wrath have you all screwed up where you are unable to see the obvious. Or I guess it's some see, some don't.

They’re not trumpets of wrath. The first four are not even woes! Think about that a moment:They arnt even woes yet you call them wrath on mankind. No different than Pre-TBers calling the seals wrath and disregarding OT texts that say otherwise.

Here’s a question:
According to the Bible, When Rahab was saved, was it before the 1st trumpet or after the 7th was blown?

According to the Bible, When Rahab was saved, was she saved 7 days/years before the city was attacked or on the last day after the trumpets were blown while it was attacked?

Hmmm!

 

[Ronald D Milam]

They’re not trumpets of wrath. The first four are not even woes! Think about that a moment:They arnt even woes yet you call them wrath on mankind. No different than Pre-TBers calling the seals wrath and disregarding OT texts that say otherwise.

He's right on that, one of the few things, the Wrath is only the 7 Trumps, all judgments emit from the 7 Trumps (he will not get that for sure). The Asteroid Impact begins the 1260 days of God's Wrath. The Seals are not wrath, they foretell God's coming Wrath (Seal #6) and the Anti-Christs tyrannical rule (Seals 1-5) and then the 7th Seal FINALLY opens the Scroll of Judgments over in Rev. 8, where the ASTEROID HITS !! Why is there silence for "30 minutes"? Because Wrath has now come, it is not a joyous occasion in heaven that billions of people must be judged and die. It repented God when He had to flood the world and kill everyone but Noah and his kin.

They see the Seals as Wrath because they do not understand when it calls this the Wrath of the Lamb and men hide themselves that it is prophetic in nature. Now those who say the Seals were opened long ago, or some were, are also wrong. All of the 7 Seals are opened in front of the Pre Trib Raptured Church, in Heaven, as shown, CLEARLY in Rev. 4:4 and 5:9-10. The Three Woes are the Last Three Trumps, the Last Woe emits from the 7th Trump, in full the Last Woe is the 7 Vials which finish off God's TOTAL WRATH.

Thus Rev. 10 is now understood better, the 7 Thunders are the 7 Trumps, when the last one sounds time will be no more [as we now know it], Jesus will take over. The reason the little book being both bitter and sweet is also explained now, in order to move onto an Everlasting relationship in Heaven with Jesus/God judgment has to fall and men have to be judged and killed. Billions of human being getting killed is a bitter thing, for John, but also for God who loves us all, but it has to happen in order for us to move on and live eternally with God, and that is very, very sweet, Amen.

Here’s a question:
According to the Bible, When Rahab was saved, was it before the 1st trumpet or after the 7th was blown?

According to the Bible, When Rahab was saved, was she saved 7 days/years before the city was attacked or on the last day after the trumpets were blown while it was attacked?

Rahab was not a FAITH BELIVING Jew. She thus earned her way to life eternal by BELIVING God after the troubles started, Israel laid siege on Jericho. She was rewarded for he faith via her cities troubles.

 

[The Light]

They’re not trumpets of wrath.

Well, here's what happens at the end of the 6th seal.

Revelation 6
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The 7th seal is the trumpets of God wrath.

The wrath of God is over at the 7th trumpet. Armageddon is over and Jesus has set up his kingdom on the earth.
Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The first four are not even woes! Think about that a moment:They arnt even woes yet you call them wrath on mankind.

Just because they are not woes does not mean they are not wrath. What is this? a picnic?

Revelation 8
7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

No different than Pre-TBers calling the seals wrath and disregarding OT texts that say otherwise.

So pre tribbers do not not understand that the tribulation is not the wrath of God. That's because they do not understand the fig tree has two harvests. You don't understand that the fig tree has two harvests so you don't understand what the wrath of God is even when we are plainly told. It so puzzles me. Why are there so few that will accept what is written?

Here’s a question:
According to the Bible, When Rahab was saved, was it before the 1st trumpet or after the 7th was blown?

According to the Bible, When Rahab was saved, was she saved 7 days/years before the city was attacked or on the last day after the trumpets were blown while it was attacked?

Hmmm!

I cannot do justice to your questions as I don't have time at the moment. However, you have brought up something that I find interesting so I hope to look at this.

 

[The Light]

No, it doesn't nor didn't happen back then. Jesus was only describing a future second coming.

I got a question for myself. Does famine happen during the 3rd seal?

Well, ysss ............ er ah no, no, no, no. I almost screwed up. Of course, famine DOES NOT happen in the 3rd seal. That is only John describing a future famine in the 3rd seal.

How did I do? Is that correct?

That's two second comings which isn't biblical. He comes once more, not twice or more times. He comes, the resurrection happens and then the rapture. They are moments apart.

Actually He comes for the dead in Christ. He returns for the alive believers. He comes for the 144,000 first fruits. He comes for the harvest at the 6th seal and He comes to set up His kingdom. Looks like five to me. Of course if we just neglect a lot of scripture we can probably whittle it down in one coming.

 

[ewq1938]

I got a question for myself. Does famine happen during the 3rd seal?

Well, ysss ............ er ah no, no, no, no. I almost screwed up. Of course, famine DOES NOT happen in the 3rd seal. That is only John describing a future famine in the 3rd seal.

How did I do? Is that correct?

Yes, it is correct. Like Matthew 24, the things listed in the seals are future events. The events described DO NOT happen when Jesus describes them in the OD.

Actually He comes for the dead in Christ. He returns for the alive believers. He comes for the 144,000 first fruits. He comes for the harvest at the 6th seal and He comes to set up His kingdom.

Those things will eventually happen but not when the 6th seal is opened anymore than when He described them in Matthew 24.

Looks like five to me. Of course if we just neglect a lot of scripture we can probably whittle it down in one coming.

There is only one coming left. Multiple comings are unscriptural.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The dead are raised before the rapture. The rapture is post-trib according to the bible.

I am waiting for anyone to post a verse pointing to a postrib rapture.

 

[rebuilder 454]

No, the dead resurrect first, then the rapture of the living happens. That's why this verse says what it does:

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

(ASV) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep.

(BBE) For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are still living at the coming of the Lord, will not go before those who are sleeping.

You have the dead in Christ raised AFTER the gathering in rev 14.
Your theory is poorly thought out

 

[rebuilder 454]

Yes, it is correct. Like Matthew 24, the things listed in the seals are future events. The events described DO NOT happen when Jesus describes them in the OD.




Those things will eventually happen but not when the 6th seal is opened anymore than when He described them in Matthew 24.






There is only one coming left. Multiple comings are unscriptural.

Rev 14 is unscriptural?