The 144,000 before God at the end.

[rebuilder 454]

The passage shows the grain harvest and the grape harvest. The grain apparently to be gathered into the barn, the grapes cast into the winepress.

Personally, I see the 144,000 having already been translated into heaven at this point.

Much love!

Nope
The 144 are gathered first as firstfruit Jews.
It is a no brainer thet the second harvest in rev 14 is a Jewish harvest of rom 11.
Vivid and self explanatory.
The harvest you speak of is the GWT Judgement AFTER the mil.
The chaff is burned.
That would the LOF after the mil.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Yes, the 144,000 are in heaven, BEFORE the Great Tribulation. Here is the Great Tribulation.

Revelation 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

The Great Tribulation is the 5th seal. The coming of Jesus for the harvest when He sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth is the 6th seal.

I do not see this harvest as the grain and grape harvest. I see the dead in Christ as the spring barley harvest. Then the Lord return for the alive that remain at the summer wheat harvest. Together, this makes up the grain harvest.

Then the second harvest is the fruit harvest which is what we see in Revelation 14. The good fruit is gathered and the grapes in the wilderness are cast into the wrath of God.

The fig tree has two harvests and there will be two raptures. First the Gentiles and then followed by the saved 12 tribes across the earth, the seed of the woman that keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Only the nation of Israel, those that flee to the place of protection and unbelievers will be on earth during the wrath of God.

...and makes a postrib rapture impossible.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The harvest does not start until Jesus is sitting on His throne in Jerusalem between the 6th and 7th Seals being opened. The first 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders are the final harvest.

The winepress is about those left after the final harvest. Those are the last of Adam's dead corruptible flesh during the days of the 7th Trumpet. Revelation 10 declares time is up when the 7th Trumpet starts to sound.

Not a world event.
It is local to israel.
The world event is after the mil at the GWT Judgement.
Two different dynamics.

 

[Timtofly]

Not a world event.
It is local to israel.
The world event is after the mil at the GWT Judgement.
Two different dynamics.

Are you saying the rapture is after the Millennium?

 

[Ronald D Milam]

It's a very interesting passage. It's seems to me to look ahead at the coming separation of wheat and weeds.

If you care to take a look, I'm interested in what you think:

So, Revelation has an Order (Rev. 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 all happen after the 70th week begins but before God's Wrath falls. Rev. 8, 9, 15&16 (really one chapter) are the Wrath of God. Rev. 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18 and 19 are Parenthetical Citation type chapters or events happening at the same time as Rev. chapters 8, 9 and 16.

Each has a purpose, Two-witnesses (11) Satan chases Israel (12), The Anti-Christ (13) The Harlot (17 False Religion) Babylon gets judged (18 Whole World).

The Three Harvests = Revelation 14.

The 144,000 = Israel, we know 1/3 or 3.5-5 million Jews repent, so they are not "really" on Mt. Zion when Jesus returns, its PROSE. They are in the Patra/Bozrah region, but since Jesus will rule from Jerusalem with the Jews for 1000 years we get a painted picture of Israel (144,000) waiting on Mt. Zion. That is the Wheat Harvest. Lastly we get a picture of the Wicked Grapes (Snares) being bound to be burned later (in 1000 years at the 2nd Resurrection) but as per the Harvest Chapter here they are the Wicked Grapes, they will be placed in the Wine-press of God's Wrath.

Now I will explain Rev. 14:14, God is the original author of the Movie FLASHBACK (Smile). In order to give us a "Harvest Chapter" God needed to give us a flashback, we see Jesus from upon a cloud thrust in the sickle to Harvest (the Barley which does not need to be crushed in order to be sifted) and thus we are taken out Pre Trib in a Flashback, that is why we are seen in Rev. 4:4 and Rev. 5:9 before the Seals are ever opened. So, yes it is also the Wheat and Tares story, but here God uses Three Harvests and the middle Harvest comes first.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Like I said, its fulfillment theology, Israel national was a type, shadow, picture, the Church is the Fulfillment of Israel Gods Chosen People, Chosen in Christ before the foundation.

God/Jesus do not lie, Jesus rules from Jerusalem with Israel for 1000 years. You just do not understand Prophecy it seems.

 

[David in NJ]

You will never be able to
change rev 14 to get traction on the "spoof" (your word) that you promote.

"spoof" ???

 

[David in NJ]

The list of the twelve tribes as the 144,000 basically shows the end time remnant or spiritual Israel, who have been sealed and will go through the final crisis of the mark of the beast, the time "such as never was". But notice that some are missing, it excludes Dan and includes Manasseh and then adds Joseph, but Joseph was not one of the 12 tribes and this takes out Ephraim. So why were Dan and Ephraim taken out, well the Bible gives a clue, as they were associated with the idolatrous apostasy.
Hosea 4:17
Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone.
2 Kings 10:29
Howbeit from the sins of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, who made Israel to sin, Jehu departed not from after them, to wit, the golden calves that were in Bethel, and that were in Dan.

It seems to show that God’s saints will be cleansed from all "idolatry" which if you look has a meaning of false worship or worship other than God and they stand as a pure virgins, undefiled by this apostasy and corruption. So the 144,000 is not to a literal number of Jewish tribes, but to what it signifies. The number 144,000 consists of 12 times 12 times 1,000. Twelve is a symbol of God’s people: the tribes of Israel and the church built upon the foundation of the Twelve apostles. Thus, the number 144,000 stands for the totality of God’s end time people, all of spiritual Israel (Jews and Gentiles) who are alive and ready for Christ’s return and who will be raised up and taken to Gods kingdom in heaven without seeing death, at the Second Coming.

@Hobie @The Light @rebuilder 454 @marks @amigo de christo @L3astAm0ngManyB13ss3d


144,000 is symbolic of the Bride of Christ, Jew & Gentile = the New Jerusalem which will come down from Heaven at His Time

Revelation 21: 9-21
Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, “Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.”
And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal. Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them,
HELLO = which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.


Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. And he who talked with me had a gold reed to measure the city, its gates, and its wall. The city is laid out as a square; its length is as great as its breadth. And he measured the city with the reed: twelve thousand furlongs. Its length, breadth, and height are equal.
Then he measured its wall: one hundred and forty-four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of an angel. The construction of its wall was of jasper; and the city was pure gold, like clear glass. The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with all kinds of precious stones: the first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third chalcedony, the fourth emerald, the fifth sardonyx, the sixth sardius, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, and the twelfth amethyst.
The twelve gates were twelve pearls: each individual gate was of one pearl. And the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass.

 

[The Light]

...and makes a postrib rapture impossible.

Actually there is a post trib rapture as seem here........

Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

It is of course not the Church that is raptured from the earth.

The Church is already in heaven seen here.
Revelation 5
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

These guy that think they are post trib are really post wrath as the tribulaiton is over before the wrath of God begins.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

The book of Revelation IS NOT in Chronological Order, when you see someone who says it is do not listen to what they are putting forth, it will be in error.

 

[No Pre-TB]

Nope
The 144 are gathered first as firstfruit Jews.
It is a no brainer thet the second harvest in rev 14 is a Jewish harvest of rom 11.
Vivid and self explanatory.
The harvest you speak of is the GWT Judgement AFTER the mil.
The chaff is burned.
That would the LOF after the mil.

A couple of points to make.

The 144k are first fruit Jews as you say. And who is a Jew?
Romans 2:29
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Romans 10:12
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Do you believe Christ died on the cross for your sins? Do you obey his word and do it? Then you are a Jew.

Matt 13:39 says of the harvest:
The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

Multiple verses in John tell us the resurrection is on the last day! Not 7 years before the last day, not at the beginning of the end of the world before things happen, not before Christ leaves Heaven at the restoration of all things and not before his Kingdom comes.

Matthew 13:30 says,
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Look what Christ says regarding it:

The harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire:

That implies Christ is reigning when they gather out of his Kingdom. For him to be reigning, as he is shown in Rev 14:14 as the son of Man wearing a crown, the kingdoms of the world are his. The implication is this event happens after the 7th trumpet is blown. He removes, in the millennial kingdom, all workers of iniquity. It's not after the millennium, It's in it. How does it end in Matt 13:43?

Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.

Do we shine forth as this in the millennial kingdom or is it after it? In it and after it. If we shall in it, why would this apply to only after it as you say? For the beast kingdom, it's citizenry and the man of sin are all thrown into the lake of fire before the 1 thousand years are finished. After the 1k years, all the dead, not in the book of life are thrown in as well. There is no harvest after the 1k years. There is only 1 harvest as Christ shows us at the end of the world. if there were another, he would have told us.

 

[No Pre-TB]

The book of Revelation IS NOT in Chronological Order, when you see someone who says it is do not listen to what they are putting forth, it will be in error.

I'd go a step further Ronald. I'd say parts are and parts are not. But if we said Revelation 6-20 are completely chronological in sequence, no it is not. Some chapters have a chronological component but are not sequential. Others are not and give additional information of a subject.

Example #1: Rev 12 does not happen chronologically after Rev 11 ends.
Example #2: Rev 14 has a reoccurring theme if you pay attention to the rest of the work.
A. 144k precedes,
B: the command to fear God because the hour of his judgment has come, which precedes
C: Babylon falling which will precede,
D: the mark of the beast which gives to
E: those who are dead that decide to die in the Lord.
F: and finishing at the harvest

This chronologically happens, but is it sequential? What is proven is I saw, then followed, then a second angel, then I saw a third angel...showing chronology. It is up to the reader to understand and determine where this fits into the general framework of the apocalypse.

And why I dont understand how Pre-Tb's miss this, read this last portion:

If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Here is my question. If this event happens AFTER Babylon falls and it is a warning from the angel after that time, how is any other time BEFORE or during it considered God's wrath? It specifically says if you do this after Babylon falls, God will pour out his wrath on you. That means, he hasnt been doing it up to this point yet Pre-TB says his wrath has been happening this whole time. Then why the warning and the threat of a punishment if they are all currently experiencing God's wrath and are experiencing punishment? Riddle me this Batman! The exact same question is in Rev 11:18. It was said, and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. Wait, wasnt He destroying them that destroy the earth this whole time? Or was He? According to Pre-TB and others, He was dishing out his wrath. But that disagrees with the warning from the angel and the statement in Rev 11.

 

[TribulationSigns]

144,000 is symbolic of the Body of Christ

Bingo!!!

 

[The Light]

Here is my question. If this event happens AFTER Babylon falls and it is a warning from the angel after that time, how is any other time BEFORE or during it considered God's wrath? It specifically says if you do this after Babylon falls, God will pour out his wrath on you. That means, he hasnt been doing it up to this point yet Pre-TB says his wrath has been happening this whole time. Then why the warning and the threat of a punishment if they are all currently experiencing God's wrath and are experiencing punishment?

You are correct is your assessment of the wrath of God. Pretrib has is WRONG. And that fact puts confidence in you that you are correct in all that you believe. And yet does this prove that there is not a pretribulation rapture. Absolutely not. That fact that pretribbers do not understand that there is a difference between God's wrath and the tribulation only means that they do not understand that Jesus also comes at the 6th seal for a harvest in addition to Him coming before the seals are opened.

So if you are able to understand that tribulation and wrath are not the same thing, how is it that you are unable to understand that Jesus comes at the 6th seal, after the tribulation, and comes again at the end of wrath? His coming is marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars so there can be no mistake as to what is happening.

Riddle me this Batman! The exact same question is in Rev 11:18. It was said, and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. Wait, wasnt He destroying them that destroy the earth this whole time? Or was He? According to Pre-TB and others, He was dishing out his wrath. But that disagrees with the warning from the angel and the statement in Rev 11.

Riddel me this Robin! So if you are able to understand that tribulation and wrath are not the same thing, how is it that you are unable to understand that Jesus comes at the 6th seal, after the tribulation, and comes again at the end of wrath? His coming is marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars so there can be no mistake as to what is happening.

 

[The Light]

Bingo!!!

Or maybe the 144,000 are EXACTLY what God says they are which is the first fruits of the second harvest.

 

[David in NJ]

Or maybe the 144,000 are EXACTLY what God says they are which is the first fruits of the second harvest.

Or maybe you do not believe EXACTLY who God says they are...................Post 328

 

[David in NJ]

The 144k are first fruit Jews as you say. And who is a Jew?
Romans 2:29
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Romans 10:12
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Do you believe Christ died on the cross for your sins? Do you obey his word and do it? Then you are a Jew.

Matt 13:39 says of the harvest:
The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

Multiple verses in John tell us the resurrection is on the last day! Not 7 years before the last day, not at the beginning of the end of the world before things happen, not before Christ leaves Heaven at the restoration of all things and not before his Kingdom comes.

Matthew 13:30 says,
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Look what Christ says regarding it:

The harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire:

That implies Christ is reigning when they gather out of his Kingdom. For him to be reigning, as he is shown in Rev 14:14 as the son of Man wearing a crown, the kingdoms of the world are his. The implication is this event happens after the 7th trumpet is blown. He removes, in the millennial kingdom, all workers of iniquity. It's not after the millennium, It's in it. How does it end in Matt 13:43?

Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.

Do we shine forth as this in the millennial kingdom or is it after it? In it and after it. If we shall in it, why would this apply to only after it as you say? For the beast kingdom, it's citizenry and the man of sin are all thrown into the lake of fire before the 1 thousand years are finished. After the 1k years, all the dead, not in the book of life are thrown in as well. There is no harvest after the 1k years. There is only 1 harvest as Christ shows us at the end of the world. if there were another, he would have told us.

When we submit to "It is written" the Holy Spirit reveals the connections of Scripture.

There are no contradictions in the Design of Scripture that Tells the Story.

 

[The Light]

Or maybe you do not believe EXACTLY who God says they are...................Post 328

I missed the part where the Lord said the 144,000 are symbolic. Now I did see where you said they were symbolic but you are not to be compared to the Lord.

It's just the old lack of belief that your teachers started somewhere around 400 AD. No faith in what is written.

 

[David in NJ]

I missed the part where the Lord said the 144,000 are symbolic. Now I did see where you said they were symbolic but you are not to be compared to the Lord.

It's just the old lack of belief that your teachers started somewhere around 400 AD. No faith in what is written.

YES Brother, i know you are struggling with this.

When you submit to the Holy Spirit, HE will guide you into Truth as HE does for many, many Saints including myself.
But if you insist on believing men's opinions(pre-fib) against "it is written" then you will stump your own growth in the Scriptures.

 

[ewq1938]

Riddel me this Robin! So if you are able to understand that tribulation and wrath are not the same thing, how is it that you are unable to understand that Jesus comes at the 6th seal

He doesn't come at the 6th seal. He remains in heaven opening the last seal. The seals only tell about future events. The events of the 6th seal happen in one of the trumps not when any of the seals are opened. Trumps are action, not the seals.