The 144,000 before God at the end.

[Timtofly]

The overwhelming evidence of Scripture points to 144k as being symbolic.

There is only one Scripture explanation found in Revelation 7:1-8.

If those verses overwhelm your human understanding, that is telling.

The explanation is literal, not symbolic. Those are the literal sons of Jacob. At a literal point in time, literal humans are given literal seals on literal foreheads, by literal angels.

Jesus even claimed that would happen:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him,"

A literal Jesus is literally coming to a literal earth with literal angels.

"And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."

We know who the "we" is in Revelation 7:3

"Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

The angels on the earth are the "we". John does not say they are gathered, and taken some place. John says they are sealed to be protected on the earth. After the church is gathered at the 6th Seal, those same angels then seal 144k humans on the earth.

Then in verse 9 we see who was gathered at the 6th Seal from Paradise and from the earth.

"And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."

This is the church, gathered, or caught up, or raptured both from the earth and from Paradise where they have been since the Cross. They are gathered in one place for one purpose, before returning to Paradise which is the scene in Revelation 7:9.

The one purpose:

"And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season."

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

The entire church will put on white robes, to be just like Jesus. Not a literal robe. The robe is symbolic of what Jesus will appear as at the Second Coming.

The 144k do not put on white robes. They are part of those, the church is waiting for.

"They should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

"Killed" is also symbolic. Being sealed by angels is the act of removing them from Adam's dead corruptible flesh. The seal is literal. What happens when sealed is described in the previous chapter via symbolism. They are changed into the description found later at the moment they were sealed. It was nothing about who they were, or what they had done. It was the blood of Jesus on the Cross that redeemed them and afforded this description:

"Having his Father's name written in their foreheads.... And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

God changed them at the moment they were sealed with His name on their foreheads. God did all the work, not anything they planned or did. It would be as impossible for someone to be born and live that way as much, or even more so than some claim it is impossible to find 144k direct descendants of Israel. They are out there. They will be literally changed. They will follow Jesus as King just like the 12 disciples were chosen for His first earthly ministry. Jesus is coming to earth, and will be here during the Trumpets and Thunders. So are the angels who seal those 144k literal Israelites. Their birth into the family of God is the birth of Israel in a Day.

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

"Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children."

Or the whole chapter of Ezekiel 37. This happens on earth for an earthly Israel where Daniel 9:24 is a reality. It starts in Revelation 7, after Jesus and the angels are on the earth.

 

[David in NJ]

There is only one Scripture explanation found in Revelation 7:1-8.

If those verses overwhelm your human understanding, that is telling.

The explanation is literal, not symbolic. Those are the literal sons of Jacob. At a literal point in time, literal humans are given literal seals on literal foreheads, by literal angels.

Jesus even claimed that would happen:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him,"

A literal Jesus is literally coming to a literal earth with literal angels.

"And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."

We know who the "we" is in Revelation 7:3

"Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

The angels on the earth are the "we". John does not say they are gathered, and taken some place. John says they are sealed to be protected on the earth. After the church is gathered at the 6th Seal, those same angels then seal 144k humans on the earth.

Then in verse 9 we see who was gathered at the 6th Seal from Paradise and from the earth.

"And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."

This is the church, gathered, or caught up, or raptured both from the earth and from Paradise where they have been since the Cross. They are gathered in one place for one purpose, before returning to Paradise which is the scene in Revelation 7:9.

The one purpose:

"And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season."

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

The entire church will put on white robes, to be just like Jesus. Not a literal robe. The robe is symbolic of what Jesus will appear as at the Second Coming.

The 144k do not put on white robes. They are part of those, the church is waiting for.

"They should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

"Killed" is also symbolic. Being sealed by angels is the act of removing them from Adam's dead corruptible flesh. The seal is literal. What happens when sealed is described in the previous chapter via symbolism. They are changed into the description found later at the moment they were sealed. It was nothing about who they were, or what they had done. It was the blood of Jesus on the Cross that redeemed them and afforded this description:

"Having his Father's name written in their foreheads.... And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

God changed them at the moment they were sealed with His name on their foreheads. God did all the work, not anything they planned or did. It would be as impossible for someone to be born and live that way as much, or even more so than some claim it is impossible to find 144k direct descendants of Israel. They are out there. They will be literally changed. They will follow Jesus as King just like the 12 disciples were chosen for His first earthly ministry. Jesus is coming to earth, and will be here during the Trumpets and Thunders. So are the angels who seal those 144k literal Israelites. Their birth into the family of God is the birth of Israel in a Day.

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

"Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children."

Or the whole chapter of Ezekiel 37. This happens on earth for an earthly Israel where Daniel 9:24 is a reality. It starts in Revelation 7, after Jesus and the angels are on the earth.

Timtofly says: "If those verses overwhelm your human understanding, that is telling."

This is very funny - thank you

 

[David in NJ]

There is only one Scripture explanation found in Revelation 7:1-8.

If those verses overwhelm your human understanding, that is telling.

The explanation is literal, not symbolic. Those are the literal sons of Jacob. At a literal point in time, literal humans are given literal seals on literal foreheads, by literal angels.

Jesus even claimed that would happen:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him,"

A literal Jesus is literally coming to a literal earth with literal angels.

"And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."

We know who the "we" is in Revelation 7:3

"Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

The angels on the earth are the "we". John does not say they are gathered, and taken some place. John says they are sealed to be protected on the earth. After the church is gathered at the 6th Seal, those same angels then seal 144k humans on the earth.

Then in verse 9 we see who was gathered at the 6th Seal from Paradise and from the earth.

"And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."

This is the church, gathered, or caught up, or raptured both from the earth and from Paradise where they have been since the Cross. They are gathered in one place for one purpose, before returning to Paradise which is the scene in Revelation 7:9.

The one purpose:

"And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season."

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

The entire church will put on white robes, to be just like Jesus. Not a literal robe. The robe is symbolic of what Jesus will appear as at the Second Coming.

The 144k do not put on white robes. They are part of those, the church is waiting for.

"They should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

"Killed" is also symbolic. Being sealed by angels is the act of removing them from Adam's dead corruptible flesh. The seal is literal. What happens when sealed is described in the previous chapter via symbolism. They are changed into the description found later at the moment they were sealed. It was nothing about who they were, or what they had done. It was the blood of Jesus on the Cross that redeemed them and afforded this description:

"Having his Father's name written in their foreheads.... And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

God changed them at the moment they were sealed with His name on their foreheads. God did all the work, not anything they planned or did. It would be as impossible for someone to be born and live that way as much, or even more so than some claim it is impossible to find 144k direct descendants of Israel. They are out there. They will be literally changed. They will follow Jesus as King just like the 12 disciples were chosen for His first earthly ministry. Jesus is coming to earth, and will be here during the Trumpets and Thunders. So are the angels who seal those 144k literal Israelites. Their birth into the family of God is the birth of Israel in a Day.

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

"Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children."

Or the whole chapter of Ezekiel 37. This happens on earth for an earthly Israel where Daniel 9:24 is a reality. It starts in Revelation 7, after Jesus and the angels are on the earth.

lol - "Human understanding" is claiming the 144K as Jewish flesh = which is carnal understanding compared to what the Spirit says

 

[Ronald D Milam]

The announcement of the number of those who are sealed marks the completion of the sealing. This event takes place at the same time as the mark of the beast is accepted by apostates. The 144,000 cannot be a literal number of the saved, nor a literal number of Jewish evangelists... The church is God's vehicle for missionary work, and national Israel is one part of the mission field.

You are correct, it is not a literal number, but it takes place 75 days or so before the Beast goes forth conquering, this is over most peoples heads so I leave it off unless they enquire, no use wasting time. In general, the 1335 comes first, then the 1290, then the Beast at 1260, which are all a set number of days from certain events unto Jesus' 2nd coming ends all of these wonders.

Jews are a part of the Church, Israel is not, they only repent after the Pre Trib Rapture, at the 1335, as seen in Zech. 13:8-9 just before the DOTL arrives in Zech. 14:1 (1260 event). Just like the Church is not 10 Virgin Brides, the 144,000 is also a code or symbolism. The numbers are different, but ad to to completion just like 10 = completion for the Church, except its 12 (fulness) x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 (Completeness) so its quite obvious the number 144,000 stands for all Israel/Jews who repent during the 70th week. Why are thy "Protected" unlike the Gentiles who come to Christ during the 70th week? Because God's plan still calls for a Kingdom Age where Jesus rules from Jerusalem for 1000 years amongst his Jewish brothers, and yes, being a Jew means you are from Judea and all12 Tribes lived in Judea after the Northern Kingdoms were toted off and thus became Judeans or Jews, because of where they all resided, just like Italians living in New York for 100 years are New Yorkers or Americans !!

John hears that their number is 144,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel. The reference here is not to a literal number but to what it signifies. The number 144,000 consists of 12 times 12 times 1,000. Twelve is a symbol of God’s people: the tribes of Israel and the church built upon the foundation of the Twelve Apostles (Eph. 2:20). Thus, the number 144,000 stands for the totality of God’s end-time people: “All Israel” (Jews and Gentiles) who are ready for Christ’s return and who will be translated without seeing death (Rom. 11:26, 1 Cor. 15:51–53).

Pretty spot on here...

The 144,000 are further described as the ones who have been “redeemed from among men” as “firstfruits to God and to the Lamb” (Rev. 14:4, NKJV). In ancient Israel, the firstfruits were the best fruits of the harvest offered to God (Num. 18:12). The word “firstfruits” can refer to saved people as distinct from those in the world (James 1:18), but in Revelation the 144,000 are clearly a special group because they will be translated without seeing death (1 Cor. 15:50–52). Thus, they are the firstfruits of the larger harvest of the saved through all the ages (see Rev. 14:14–16).

Jesus remember, there are three Harvests which have been celebrated for eons in Israel the Barley Harvest which always came first and Barley does not need to be crushed in order to be sifted thus that represents the Church, as a matter of fact the word the English got their word Tribulation from was TRIBULUM, a machine used to crush Wheat so that it could be sifted. Next the Wheat can be harvested and represents the Jews first-fruits, and in Rev. 14 Jesus used the Grapes as representing the Wicked who receive the Wine-press of God's Wrath.

 

[Timtofly]

Speaking of twisting things...............

You have not one shred of Scriptural evidence that God has separated 144K Jews from the Body of Christ.

Are you claiming every human conceived makes up the body of Christ, until separated from Christ?

How is this misdirection of human reasoning even acceptable, much less mentioned in Scripture?

No one has made that point, until you introduced it.

The church is not the natural olive tree, neither is ethnic Israel. The olive tree is rooted in Jesus, and the branches are just that, branches. This is all part of replacement theology, that turns simple literal facts into a symbolic mess of human reasoning.

The church is simply those of Adam's dead corruptible flesh called out of the world. They then actually have to accept that calling for it to work. Doing nothing is pointless. Abraham by faith.... Noah by faith.... Abel by faith..... They all did something by faith.

Those 144k are not forced apart from the body of Christ as you misleadingly put it.

You cannot put these 144k just willy nilly into your pet verses that some claim support replacement theology.

How is this for a better point of view: In the first century Jesus taught in parables that God would remove Israel from being stewards of the Vinyard and give the position of stewardship to the church. Now at the Second Coming, the same could be said of self proclaimed post trib stewards of the Vinyard. That job of stewardship will be taken from post trib stewards and given to the 144k. No wonder you all deny they are literal Israel taking your jobs away during the Trumpets and Thunders, the final harvest. What will you all be doing on earth, while the church is glorified in heaven and the 144k are sealed on the earth as Jesus' Disciples?

Those 144k are not part of the redeemed until they are sealed with the Father's name on their foreheads.

"These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God."

No verse states they were separated from the body of Christ. They were placed into redemption the moment they were literally sealed by the angels.

But all those claiming to be on earth during the Trumpets and Thunders, are they now separated from the body of Christ, because they definitely are not in Paradise with the church, and certainly not the 144k? Because they claimed to already be the church prior to the 6th Seal, but claim they remain on the earth. The 144k are not making such a claim. They don't even know who they are, as sealed, until after the 6th Seal is opened. Who do you know claim they are redeemed after the 6th Seal?

You only approach this as some symbolic view of the church. Paul already said Israel would be blind until the Second Coming. That is when the church is removed and the natural branches are re-instated. Of course Paul used symbolism. But no one should be guessing, about who is who. The church cannot be left on earth after the 6th Seal. The 144k cannot be the church. At least not in the sense they are called out. They have no choice. They do nothing by faith. Their sin has been removed. They can no longer disobey, nor would even want to. Not that they are robots, but because they were stripped out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, and redeemed. They were instantly born at one time, when they were all sealed at the same time. The seal removed their spiritual blindness at the same time they were removed from Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

Those who propose this symbolic view of the 144k, don't even understand the redemptive process that happened, but mock the Word of God. They fit this verse to a "t".

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits."

When God's Word is making a definitive point, best just accept it. Even if it does not make sense. Certainly don't change the point with your own 2 cent nonsense.

The 144k are on earth, because they have not been redeemed until sealed. This multitude before the throne of God, are not on earth, because they are all now in Paradise waiting for the final harvest to be completed. They remain in Paradise, until the NHNE. That is when the church comes to earth in the New Jerusalem.

 

[Timtofly]

lol - "Human understanding" is claiming the 144K as Jewish flesh = which is carnal understanding compared to what the Spirit says

Not claiming they are flesh, since you mock God's Word.

They have physical bodies, because Adam was created with a physical body.

Do you pretend to not understand the redemptive process?

How is physical earth experienced once sin is removed? You seem to imply carnally, yet what is the definition of carnal, if sin has been removed?

Being carnal is the embodiment of the curse of sin. You are trampling under foot the redemption of the Cross, by inserting human wisdom, into literal words of God, via your alleged symbolic "fixing" of a perfectly understandable point being made.

Revelation 7:1-8 is the restoration of Israel as a nation. It is the redemption of Israel, and the removal of their sin. The blindness has been removed, and natural branches restored.

Then you belittle the passage with your insignificant excuses of why God cannot do something.

 

[David in NJ]

Not claiming they are flesh, since you mock God's Word.

They have physical bodies, because Adam was created with a physical body.

Do you pretend to not understand the redemptive process?

How is physical earth experienced once sin is removed? You seem to imply carnally, yet what is the definition of carnal, if sin has been removed?

Being carnal is the embodiment of the curse of sin. You are trampling under foot the redemption of the Cross, by inserting human wisdom, into literal words of God, via your alleged symbolic "fixing" of a perfectly understandable point being made.

Revelation 7:1-8 is the restoration of Israel as a nation. It is the redemption of Israel, and the removal of their sin. The blindness has been removed, and natural branches restored.

Then you belittle the passage with your insignificant excuses of why God cannot do something.

Disagreeing with you is not "mocking God's words".

Carnal understanding is assuming what you do not know or understand from the Holy Scriptures.

To help your understanding on the subject of the 144K, please read Post #253

 

[Timtofly]

Dispensationalism is enslaved by Replacement Biology racism, which seeks to divide the Body of Christ by DNA.

Blaming another group for your own shortcomings is a terrible excuse of an argument.

No one brings up DNA, but you.

Paul used natural and wild branches in his explanation.

Who to listen to:

Paul with branch symbolism?

A modern day "expert" on DNA?

You do realize that Paul was speaking about the period of time between the Cross and the Second Coming? John in Revelation 7 was talking about the time between the Second Coming and the NHNE.

That literal time, you dismiss with a wave of your amil human opinion.

Do you think God understood about DNA from the time he called Abraham and claimed he was the father of many nations? Did God stop understanding DNA when Jesus was born? Did the Cross prevent God's understanding of DNA? Why would the Second Coming also prevent God's understanding of DNA?

Why do you continue to present your understanding as being superior to God's understanding?

 

[covenantee]

No one brings up DNA, but you.

No one complains about DNA, but you.

If you don't understand what DNA means, leave it for those who do.

 

[brightfame52]

There is only one Scripture explanation found in Revelation 7:1-8.

If those verses overwhelm your human understanding, that is telling.

The explanation is literal, not symbolic. Those are the literal sons of Jacob. At a literal point in time, literal humans are given literal seals on literal foreheads, by literal angels.

Jesus even claimed that would happen:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him,"

A literal Jesus is literally coming to a literal earth with literal angels.

"And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."

We know who the "we" is in Revelation 7:3

"Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

The angels on the earth are the "we". John does not say they are gathered, and taken some place. John says they are sealed to be protected on the earth. After the church is gathered at the 6th Seal, those same angels then seal 144k humans on the earth.

Then in verse 9 we see who was gathered at the 6th Seal from Paradise and from the earth.

"And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."

This is the church, gathered, or caught up, or raptured both from the earth and from Paradise where they have been since the Cross. They are gathered in one place for one purpose, before returning to Paradise which is the scene in Revelation 7:9.

The one purpose:

"And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season."

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

The entire church will put on white robes, to be just like Jesus. Not a literal robe. The robe is symbolic of what Jesus will appear as at the Second Coming.

The 144k do not put on white robes. They are part of those, the church is waiting for.

"They should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

"Killed" is also symbolic. Being sealed by angels is the act of removing them from Adam's dead corruptible flesh. The seal is literal. What happens when sealed is described in the previous chapter via symbolism. They are changed into the description found later at the moment they were sealed. It was nothing about who they were, or what they had done. It was the blood of Jesus on the Cross that redeemed them and afforded this description:

"Having his Father's name written in their foreheads.... And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

God changed them at the moment they were sealed with His name on their foreheads. God did all the work, not anything they planned or did. It would be as impossible for someone to be born and live that way as much, or even more so than some claim it is impossible to find 144k direct descendants of Israel. They are out there. They will be literally changed. They will follow Jesus as King just like the 12 disciples were chosen for His first earthly ministry. Jesus is coming to earth, and will be here during the Trumpets and Thunders. So are the angels who seal those 144k literal Israelites. Their birth into the family of God is the birth of Israel in a Day.

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

"Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children."

Or the whole chapter of Ezekiel 37. This happens on earth for an earthly Israel where Daniel 9:24 is a reality. It starts in Revelation 7, after Jesus and the angels are on the earth.

Thats salvation according to the flesh.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Exactly, the 144,000 are identified ...How can they be defined as "Symbolic"

My understanding from reading, is these 12,000 from each tribe are celibate, pure as the driven snow. At first read one would question ....where would they find 144,000 male virgins ...But, this is Israel and stranger things have happened ....

sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.”4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

5 12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed,
12,000 from the tribe of Reuben,
12,000 from the tribe of Gad,
612,000 from the tribe of Asher,
12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali,
12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,
712,000 from the tribe of Simeon,
12,000 from the tribe of Levi,
12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,
812,000 from the tribe of Zebulun,
12,000 from the tribe of Joseph,
12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.

Exactly.
But lets assume they are symbolic to play out the charade.
They are a small segment of a harvest ( firstfruits)
They are gathered via rapture or martyrdom mid trib.
They precede main harvest of Jews ( ooops cant say "Jews")
So, if they are the church, the church is raptured mid trib and then the church is again raptured mid trib a few sentences later.
Flat out goofy

 

[rebuilder 454]

It’s not my doctrine as I created it, It was Paul’s.

Nope
Paul has the dead in Christ PRECEEDING the living harvest of rev 14.
Only pretrib rapture fits.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Thats salvation according to the flesh.

You almost have to be replacement theology.
You and David nj

 

[rebuilder 454]

Romans clearly states Israel according to the flesh (ex.Jews today that identity as Israelites) are not the children of God nor are they partakers of the promises. Israelites of the spirit, Jew and Gentile, are Abrahams seed, children of God and inherit the promises. There is only 1 group as Gentiles by grace thru faith are grafted into an already existing spiritual Israel. We join in, we don’t supersede.

There it is.
Omission once again.
Sad

 

[rebuilder 454]

Never let men lie to us . TRUE JERUSALEM is above . THE HOLY CELIESTIAL CITY OF GOD and of the LAMB .
Access in , IS ONLY THROUGH JESUS CHRIST .
Now many under the precepts of men say , OH but the jews BELIEVE GOD .
DO they all really beleive GOD . I know abraham did . I know paul , peter , james , john , jude
did . THEY BELIEVED GOD . THEY BELIEVED JESUS .
IF JESUS SAID IT , GOD SAID IT . THEY BELIEVED , WE BELEIVE . Its that simple .
Any man that believeth not JESUS CHRIST , DOES NOT BELEIVE GOD . And that is A FACT .

I don't know what you think you are proving.
I have yet to see any of you replacement adherents unpack rom 11.
What do you do with the verses that DESTROY your assumptions?????

Please do a study on covenant.
Please cast off the replacement theology deception so you can cleanly look at the verses.
If you can not do it, remain in deception, because , once again, your error originates in extra biblical assumptions, then you guys incubate that notion in omission.
It is appalling ,the obsession with omission. Just flat out crazy.

 

[rebuilder 454]

It is said "your views on eschatology will affect your view on all of the Bible" and these threads on the 144k and the rapture prove exactly that.
Everything's pointing toward the rapture.
that's the next Super event that's coming from Heaven.
the rapture of the church, then the tribulation ,which is Jacob's trouble is pointed to Israel that's why you see the 144,000 Jews
that's the reason that you're seeing Jewish Dynamics after the rapture because it says the "time of the Gentiles completed"
that's when God turns to Israel
that's the whole point of the tribulation period
if you don't get that straight how in the world can you possibly unpack anything of end times???
the first miracle that Jesus did was at a wedding
he turned the water into wine
there had to be a wine miracle and the wine could not be fermented it had to be supernaturally produced. Plus it was declared at that wedding ,which again, was the first miracle, that you have saved the best for last.
that is the Jewish Harvest of rom 11
God Saves the best, the apple of his eye, the wayward wife gone awhoring, his Jewish Covenant people for last
we come in ahead of them.
your theology, your whole thing, is backwards it doesn't recognize any of that

 

[The Light]

Thats the Church, the Body of Christ, the Lambs Wife Eph 5:25-27

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

There is absolutely nothing in those verses about the 144,000 that would point to them being the Church. If it was the Church all John would have to do is use the word Church. Instead John goes to a lengthy description of exactly what and who those 144,000 are. Instead of accepting the written Word of God you force yourself to deny the truth. All John had to do was say Church. Why not just accept what is written so you can understand the Word of God. As soon as you start making stuff up you are lost.

The same thing goes for those that claim that the 144,000 are all of Israel. All John had to do was say Israel. There is an elaborate description so that we would understand EXACTLY who and what the 144,000 are. THEY ARE FIRSTFRUITS. That obviously means there will be a harvest of those of the twelve tribes. And yet we find the need to make things up. SMH.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

There is absolutely nothing in those verses about the 144,000 that would point to them being the Church. If it was the Church all John would have to do is use the word Church. Instead John goes to a lengthy description of exactly what and who those 144,000 are. Instead of accepting the written Word of God you force yourself to deny the truth. All John had to do was say Church. Why not just accept what is written so you can understand the Word of God. As soon as you start making stuff up you are lost.

The same thing goes for those that claim that the 144,000 are all of Israel. All John had to do was say Israel. There is an elaborate description so that we would understand EXACTLY who and what the 144,000 are. THEY ARE FIRSTFRUITS. That obviously means there will be a harvest of those of the twelve tribes. And yet we find the need to make things up. SMH.

Again, all John had to say was Israel and he used "THE WOMAN" in Rev. 12. The WHY has been explained unto you numerous times, but it hinders you true 144,000 theory so you pretend there was no reason for the 144,000 CODE.

 

[brightfame52]

You almost have to be replacement theology.
You and David nj

Fulfillment theology, so you must be trusting in the flesh theology, that God saves some men based on ethnicity. Paul renounced that mess !

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Fulfillment theology, so you must be trusting in the flesh theology, that God saves some men based on ethnicity. Paul renounced that mess !

Gal. 3 is not Paul saying Israel has no unique calling, that is you and others not understanding the chapter.