The Orthodox Preterist versus the Heretical Dispensationalist

[Eternally Grateful]

Ahhhh, yes, it was. I agree with the "I will" part... But yes, God did put Abraham in a deep sleep, and what He then did was, in walking alone between the animal halves, promised to fulfill His end of the covenant as well as Abraham's, and to bear the consequences ~ to be like the animals and lay down His life ~ if either He or Abraham failed. And we know the rest of the story. Abraham ~ and all who are his offspring through Isaac, the child of the promise, which includes all His elect ~ failed miserably. As Paul says in Romans 3, all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. So God, in the Person of Christ Jesus, laid down His life. For us! "He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross" (Philippians 2). Truly magnificent!


Ah, well that's just it... We understand the covenant nature of Scripture (one story from beginning to end), as opposed to any sort of dispensational nature (a series of "do-overs"). :)

Grace and peace to you.

You missed the point

Abraham was not told to do anything, no did he agree to do anything,.

God had him sleep to show God would give him this land by grace. Abraham could not earn it. And his people could not earn it..

 

[covenantee]

He said the land was theirs forever.

That is a fact

he told them in lev 26 what would happen if they do not obey him.. But even when they were cast out. He said the land was still thers. and if they repent he will restor them.

God did not tewll abraham Isaac or Jacob I give you this land as long as you do this. It was not a dual coevant, it was an I will covenant. In fact Abraham was put to sleep when God walked and confirmed the covenant.. (gen 15)

of course if you were a true covenant person who understand them, you would understand this.

He also said that the passover was to be observed for ever.

That is a fact.

But it wasn't.

That is a fact.

Why not?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

He also said that the passover was to be observed for ever.

That is a fact.

But it wasn't.

That is a fact.

Why not?

So Jews do not observe the passover anymore?

 

[covenantee]

So Jews do not observe the passover anymore?

Is this what they do?

Exodus 12

22 And ye shall take a bunch of hyssop, and dip it in the blood that is in the bason, and strike the lintel and the two side posts with the blood that is in the bason; and none of you shall go out at the door of his house until the morning.

23 For the Lord will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the Lord will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Is this what they do?

Exodus 12

22 And ye shall take a bunch of hyssop, and dip it in the blood that is in the bason, and strike the lintel and the two side posts with the blood that is in the bason; and none of you shall go out at the door of his house until the morning.

23 For the Lord will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the Lord will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you.

They did that once.

But they celebrated the passover by eating the passover meal, as God demanded.

I believe they still do that..

If you’re trying to show me that eternal does not mean eternal or forever. Then stop.. Your wasting your time.. because your example does not prove you right.

Eternal means eternal.

If God said it, I think he means it. Whether it be giving someone and his descendents a peace of land. To giving his adopted children eternal life.

If it ever ends, it’s not eternal. And God lied.

there is no ands or buts

 

[covenantee]

They did that once.

But they celebrated the passover by eating the passover meal, as God demanded.

I believe they still do that..

If you’re trying to show me that eternal does not mean eternal or forever. Then stop.. Your wasting your time.. because your example does not prove you right.

Eternal means eternal.

If God said it, I think he means it. Whether it be giving someone and his descendents a peace of land. To giving his adopted children eternal life.

If it ever ends, it’s not eternal. And God lied.

there is no ands or buts

What you believe is irrelevant.

Through Christ's Sacrifice at Calvary,​

You lose.​

​

forever​

1 of 3

adverb​

for·ev·er fə-ˈre-vər
fȯ-;

Southern often fə-ˈe-və

Synonyms of forever
1
: for a limitless time
2
: at all times : CONTINUALLY


Notice that word: CONTINUALLY

 

[covenantee]

They did that once.

But they celebrated the passover by eating the passover meal, as God demanded.

I believe they still do that..

If you’re trying to show me that eternal does not mean eternal or forever. Then stop.. Your wasting your time.. because your example does not prove you right.

Eternal means eternal.

If God said it, I think he means it. Whether it be giving someone and his descendents a peace of land. To giving his adopted children eternal life.

If it ever ends, it’s not eternal. And God lied.

there is no ands or buts

Numbers 18
19 All the heave offerings of the holy things, which the children of Israel offer unto the Lord, have I given thee, and thy sons and thy daughters with thee, by a statute for ever: it is a covenant of salt for ever before the Lord unto thee and to thy seed with thee.

Through Christ's sacrifice at Calvary, you lose.

 

[covenantee]

They did that once.

But they celebrated the passover by eating the passover meal, as God demanded.

I believe they still do that..

If you’re trying to show me that eternal does not mean eternal or forever. Then stop.. Your wasting your time.. because your example does not prove you right.

Eternal means eternal.

If God said it, I think he means it. Whether it be giving someone and his descendents a peace of land. To giving his adopted children eternal life.

If it ever ends, it’s not eternal. And God lied.

there is no ands or buts

Numbers 19
10 And he that gathereth the ashes of the heifer shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even: and it shall be unto the children of Israel, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among them, for a statute for ever.

Through Christ's sacrifice at Calvary, you lose.

 

[covenantee]

They did that once.

But they celebrated the passover by eating the passover meal, as God demanded.

I believe they still do that..

If you’re trying to show me that eternal does not mean eternal or forever. Then stop.. Your wasting your time.. because your example does not prove you right.

Eternal means eternal.

If God said it, I think he means it. Whether it be giving someone and his descendents a peace of land. To giving his adopted children eternal life.

If it ever ends, it’s not eternal. And God lied.

there is no ands or buts

1 Samuel 2
35 And I will raise me up a faithful priest, that shall do according to that which is in mine heart and in my mind: and I will build him a sure house; and he shall walk before mine anointed for ever.

There'd be one tired priest somewhere out there.

But through Christ's sacrifice at Calvary, he rests, and you lose.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

What you believe is irrelevant.

Through Christ's Sacrifice at Calvary,​

You lose.​

I lose?

I have been saved by the grace of God. Adopted as his child. Given his spirit as a pledge, Justified freely by his grace. redeemed by his blood. Baptized into his body and am a foreigner in a strangle land awaiting the return of my Lord, whether I am alive or dead. to be risen to him.

I am no loser.

forever​

1 of 3

adverb​

for·ev·er fə-ˈre-vər
fȯ-;

Southern often fə-ˈe-və

Synonyms of forever
1
: for a limitless time
2
: at all times : CONTINUALLY


Notice that word: CONTINUALLY

Sorry bro. I don;t get my definitions from an english dictionary. I learned many years ago to go to the original source.

God will keep his promise, It is on him, God said I WILL and he said forever throughout ALL your generations .

He means it..

now whether you agree with God or not. Thats on you

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Numbers 18
19 All the heave offerings of the holy things, which the children of Israel offer unto the Lord, have I given thee, and thy sons and thy daughters with thee, by a statute for ever: it is a covenant of salt for ever before the Lord unto thee and to thy seed with thee.

Through Christ's sacrifice at Calvary, you lose.

once again, your pride and arrogance overcomes you

I am saved through Christs blood.

I do not lose

Jesus keeps his promises.

so I will never lose (as far as eternity goes)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

1 Samuel 2
35 And I will raise me up a faithful priest, that shall do according to that which is in mine heart and in my mind: and I will build him a sure house; and he shall walk before mine anointed for ever.

There'd be one tired priest somewhere out there.

But through Christ's sacrifice at Calvary, he rests, and you lose.

Yawn

what a joke.

I get it

according to you. God does not keep his promises

face it.. You lose (or will lose if you do not recieve eternal life though Christs blood)

 

[PinSeeker]

If anyone else wanted to see this mans pride. Here it is for all to see. If I don;t agree with him, I am lost..

Well, previous to that, to be fair, you did say to Spiritual Israelite, "...if you were a true covenant person who understand them, you would understand this..." So what you say here seems a bit hypocritical.

You missed the point...

Well, no, actually; I purposefully bypassed your "point," and communicated the true point (thereby issuing a correction). :)

Abraham was not told to do anything, no did he agree to do anything,. God had him sleep to show God would give him this land by grace. Abraham could not earn it. And his people could not earn it..

With all due respect, Eternally Grateful, that's no point at all. Again: God made a covenant with Abraham, which, at its most basic level, was an oath-bound relationship between the God and Abraham and a mutual agreement. Human covenants (for example, marriage; both the man and the woman agree to the covenant and vow not to break it) fall under this same general definition. The Abrahamic covenant, of course, is divine ~ God administers it and is one of the parties ~ and as such, God sovereignly establishes the relationship with Abraham and his descendants. Fundamentally, God binds Himself by His own oath to keep His promises. But there are surely conditions attached to that oath on the human side. If the human party involved in a covenant with God does not keep the covenant’s conditions, there will be consequences (as there were borne by Adam and Eve ~ and all of humanity, because Eve was the mother of the living [Genesis 3:20] ~ after the Fall [Genesis 3:16-19], in which Adam broke the covenant of life, the Adamic covenant). As I said, by putting Abraham into a deep sleep and walking alone through the animal halves, God promised to bear the consequences of failure to keep the covenant ~ death ~ on both His and Abraham's part. After the Fall, the conditions of the Lord’s covenants with man are ultimately met by God Himself. This is why the covenant is still in place and the Greater Promised Land ~ the earth... actually, finally, the new heaven and new earth ~ will be provided to all those who are truly of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, all those who are in Christ, all those who are God's elect, all of the Israel of God.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Well, previous to that, to be fair, you did say to Spiritual Israelite, "...if you were a true covenant person who understand them, you would understand this..." So what you say here seems a bit hypocritical.


Well, no, actually; I purposefully bypassed your "point," and communicated the true point (thereby issuing a correction). :)


With all due respect, Eternally Grateful, that's no point at all. Again: God made a covenant with Abraham, which, at its most basic level, was an oath-bound relationship between the God and Abraham and a mutual agreement. Human covenants (for example, marriage; both the man and the woman agree to the covenant and vow not to break it) fall under this same general definition. The Abrahamic covenant, of course, is divine ~ God administers it and is one of the parties ~ and as such, God sovereignly establishes the relationship with Abraham and his descendants. Fundamentally, God binds Himself by His own oath to keep His promises. But there are surely conditions attached to that oath on the human side. If the human party involved in a covenant with God does not keep the covenant’s conditions, there will be consequences (as there were borne by Adam and Eve ~ and all of humanity, because Eve was the mother of the living [Genesis 3:20] ~ after the Fall [Genesis 3:16-19], in which Adam broke the covenant of life, the Adamic covenant). As I said, by putting Abraham into a deep sleep and walking alone through the animal halves, God promised to bear the consequences of failure to keep the covenant ~ death ~ on both His and Abraham's part. After the Fall, the conditions of the Lord’s covenants with man are ultimately met by God Himself. This is why the covenant is still in place and the Greater Promised Land ~ the earth... actually, finally, the new heaven and new earth ~ will be provided to all those who are truly of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, all those who are in Christ, all those who are God's elect, all of the Israel of God.

Grace and peace to you.

With all due respect

When you make a dual covenant,

Both parties agree to do their part of the covenant.

as long as both parties agree and put it in writing, the covenant is bound as long as both parties keep their part of the agreement. if one parties fails to live up to his or her part of the agreement, he has broken the covenant, and the covenant is now2

if we look at the abrahamic covenant

God did not tell Abraham he must do something, he was not given a part. it is called an "I Will" covenant. because there is only one agreement.

It is why God will not break his covenant. Because to do so would be on him, since he made the promise, I give you, I will" and asked for nothing in return.

Our covenant with God through Grace is no different.

Christ died for us, He did not ask for anything in return, he died when we were yet his enemy

He said as many as have received him to THEM he gave the right to become Gods children.

He then said they have eternal life. they have the seal of the spirit. and will will never leave nor forsake them.. He did not ask for anything in return, because their was nothing we could (or can) offer him.,.

It is also an eternal covenant.

That is why I said, If God can go back on his other eternal covenants. then nothing stops him for going back on his promise to us.

curious, do you believe in eternal security. or do you believe we can forfiet salvation?

 

[PinSeeker]

When you make a dual covenant, Both parties agree to do their part of the covenant.

And they did. And God promised that He would bear the consequences for failure on either His or Abraham's part.

God did not tell Abraham he must do something, he was not given a part.

The human part in any and every divine covenant is obedience. That's what Abraham agreed to.

it is called an "I Will" covenant. because there is only one agreement.

Well, right, between two parties. A covenant, EG, by definition, is not unilateral. That would be an edict.

Our covenant with God through Grace is no different.

Are you not to love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength? And love your neighbor as yourself? Thankfully, God gives us His Spirit and makes us more like Jesus, but still, our obligation, our responsibility is what it is. We must strive to live as becomes followers of Christ.

He did not ask for anything in return...

So there are no commandments anymore, right? It's all just... FREEGRACE! Right? :) Being facetious. But that is the effect of what you are saying... No, see above.

It is also an eternal covenant.

LOL! An eternal God only makes eternal covenants... one, actually.

curious, do you believe in eternal security. or do you believe we can forfiet salvation?

Once a king of Narnia, always a king of Narnia. :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

And they did. And God promised that He would bear the consequences for failure on either His or Abraham's part.

Gen 12:
I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

Gen 15:
12 Now when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and behold, horror and great darkness fell upon him. 13 Then He said to Abram: “Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years. 14 And also the nation whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions. 15 Now as for you, you shall [d]go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age. 16 But in the fourth generation they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”
17 And it came to pass, when the sun went down and it was dark, that behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a burning torch that passed between those pieces. 18 On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying:
“To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates— 19 the Kenites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.”

Gen 17: As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of [b]many nations. 5 No longer shall your name be called [c]Abram, but your name shall be [d]Abraham; for I have made you a father of [e]many nations. 6 I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come from you. 7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you. 8 Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in[f] which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”

Can you show me abrahams part? And the part of Abrahams descendents God made them confirm they woulkd keep for this covenant to be valid?

The human part in any and every divine covenant is obedience. That's what Abraham agreed to.


Well, right, between two parties. A covenant, EG, by definition, is not unilateral. That would be an edict.

thats not true.

I can make a covenant/ promise to someone I love, and not demand anything in return. People do it all the time

Are you not to love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength? And love your neighbor as yourself? Thankfully, God gives us His Spirit and makes us more like Jesus, but still, our obligation, our responsibility is what it is. We must strive to live as becomes followers of Christ.

can I do that perfectly? Is this required for God to keep saving me? or if I fail to do this perfectly. Will God break his covenant with me?

So there are no commandments anymore, right? It's all just... FREEGRACE! Right? :) Being facetious. But that is the effect of what you are saying... No, see above.

Grace is free. if it must be paid for. its no longer grace it is works.

Can you live up to Gods standard?

LOL! An eternal God only makes eternal covenants... one, actually.

He has made many eternal covenants.. not just one

Once a king of Narnia, always a king of Narnia. :)

Grace and peace to you.

so you believe the moment we are saved, we are saved.

there is only one king..

 

[covenantee]

once again, your pride and arrogance overcomes you

I am saved through Christs blood.

I do not lose

Jesus keeps his promises.

so I will never lose (as far as eternity goes)

Jesus keeps his promises.

He certainly does.

Here's how:

Hebrews 8
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

That's been reality since Calvary, notwithstanding your incessant denial and rejection.

That which is better has transcended that which is not. That's how Wills and Testaments work.

Get with His program.

Stop being a loser.

 

[covenantee]

I have been saved by the grace of God. Adopted as his child. Given his spirit as a pledge, Justified freely by his grace. redeemed by his blood. Baptized into his body and am a foreigner in a strangle land awaiting the return of my Lord, whether I am alive or dead. to be risen to him.

All of that describes what Christ has accomplished at Calvary through the New Will and Testament in His Shed Blood. So you're a winner with those.

And that New Will and Testament has completely transcended the old will and testamment, because that's how Wills and Testaments work.

And there is no old land promise or hint thereof to be found anywhere in His New Will and Testament.

Or any other old trappings, such as the old passover, because all have been transcended in the New in Christ.

Never to reappear.

So stop trying to exhume what cannot be exhumed, because it has decayed and vanished. Hebrews 8:13

Get with His Program.

And be a complete winner.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

He certainly does.

Here's how:

Hebrews 8
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

That's been reality since Calvary, notwithstanding your incessant denial and rejection.

That which is better has transcended that which is not. That's how Wills and Testaments work.

Get with His program.

God keeps all his promises. Not just the ones you want him to keep

Stop being a loser.

Stop being a pharisee, another looser who knows Gods word but has no comprehension of it

 

[Eternally Grateful]

All of that describes what Christ has accomplished at Calvary through the New Will and Testament in His Shed Blood. So you're a winner with those.

And that New Will and Testament has completely transcended the old will and testamment, because that's how Wills and Testaments work.

The only old covenant that has been superseded is the mosaic covenant. Because it could not save anyone

And there is no old land promise or hint thereof to be found anywhere in His New Will and Testament.

Of course not. Because it is an eternal covenant, eternal covenants do not stop. they continue on..

Or any other old trappings, such as the old passover, because all have been transcended in the New in Christ.

Never to reappear.

So stop trying to exhume what cannot be exhumed, because it has decayed and vanished. Hebrews 8:13

Get with His Program.

And be a complete winner.

Get with the program, And make God a god who keeps his promises. and not a God who does not keep his promises.