The Hell Doctrine - No doctrinal unity

[CadyandZoe]

Correct and, eventually, ALL that ever lived will proclaim that Jesus is Lord! That's what 1 Corinthians 15 tells us.

This is what I found in 1 Corinthians 15

1 Corinthians 15:22-23
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming . . .

Here the Apostle contrasts those "in Adam" with those "in Christ." Those "in Adam" all die. But those "In Christ" will be made alive.
Then the Apostle highlights and emphasizes the supremacy of Christ, noting that Christ was the first to be made alive, indicating his supremacy, then those who are Christ's will be made alive at his coming.

All are in Adam but not all are in Christ.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Amen. As Jesus said, the Gates of Hell will NOT stop Jesus's church nor will they prevent Jesus from saving ALL people. :)

Unfortunately, not all will see the light to be saved.

 

[CadyandZoe]

That's not what Paul said. You are mischaracterizing the word of God to make it fit the false doctrine of forever punishment.

We acquire an understanding of a passage from within the passage itself. Punishment is not mentioned at all in the passage. The only information we can gather from the passage pertains to the concepts of "consequence" and "inevitability."

If one is not "in Christ" then permanent death is inevitable.

Consider the man who arranged to meet a woman, with whom he is falling in love. The two arrange to meet at the train station at 9 am. But the man was late to the station and when he finally arrived he found that the woman had left. Being unable to spend time with his beloved is a consequence of being late.

Likewise, we all want to live. And since God is the only one with the power to sustain our life, we need to do business with him. And since he tells us that we must believe in his son in order to sustain our life, then those who obey God and believe in his son will live. Those who don't believe His son will die.

Here's another.

Isaiah 45: 23
By myself I have sworn from my mouth has gone out in righteousness a word that shall not return ‘To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance

Since a dead person can't swear allegiance, we understand that God speaks of the living. Everyone alive at the time will swear allegiance. It doesn't follow, however that every living person who ever lived will be alive at that time.

 

[CadyandZoe]

As ALL in Adam died so in Jesus ALL live. That's what you're misunderstanding.

Your proposal is certainly plausible, but I believe Paul meant something else. I am taking my cues from his customary practice, employing the phrase "in Christ" to indicate his followers.

Consider the following paragraph from Paul's Epistle to the Ephesians. Take note of the contrast between "those who formerly walked according to the course of this world" and those whom God "made alive together with Christ." And also note the oft-repeated phrase "in Christ", "in him", and "with Christ" and combinations such as these.

Ephesians 2:1-10

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.​

For Paul, the phrase "in Christ" carries a special meaning. In that phrase he indicates those in whom God is at work and due to this, they walk "in Christ", no longer walking according to the course of this world. When Paul says that those "in Christ" shall be made alive, the promise is specific and unique to his followers, not all of humanity.

 

[St. SteVen]

As ALL in Adam died so in Jesus ALL live. That's what you're misunderstanding.

A very good friend of mine explained it this way @CadyandZoe @Chadrho

This is essentially a conditional statement.
It is upon the basis that all die in Adam that all also are made alive in Christ. Or better, if all had not died in Adam, then there would have been no need to make all (or any) alive in Christ.

If all died in Adam, then all are made alive in Christ.

The same set of people are being referenced in both the antecedent and the consequent. So, if "all" doesn't mean all in the consequent, then it doesn't mean all in the antecedent.

Modus tollens: If all are not made alive in Christ, then all did not die in Adam.

But, of course, all did die in Adam (according to the fans of eternal torment).

Therefore, all means all in both instances.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

 

[St. SteVen]

Jesus referred to some of them as swine, but not necessarily to their face. You and I know that atheists are our brothers and sisters to whom God has not yet revealed the son.

And Jesus taught us to love our enemies, which is godly behavior.
Since loving our enemies is godly behavior, what should we expect God will do with his enemies?
Incinerating them doesn't seem like love.

 

[St. SteVen]

As ALL in Adam died so in Jesus ALL live. That's what you're misunderstanding.

@CadyandZoe

They focus on the phrase "in Christ" and make of it what it isn't, in this case,
while they totally overlook the "as in" and "so in" phrases, which are important.
It means, "in the same way". In the same way all... the same way all...
In the same way = all inclusive

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

 

[Brakelite]

Trying to remember the details of the parody I posted some time ago.

Person #1: Receive the free gift of eternal life.
Person #2: No thanks.
Person #1: I said it was free.
Person #2: There must be some strings attached.
Person #1: Well, of course.
Person #2: It's not a free gift then, right?
Person #1: You had better take it... or else!
Person #2: Say what?
Person #1: Otherwise you will be incinerated!
Person #2: What sort of free gift is that?

Indeed.

Your third response from #1 needs revision.
#2 "There must be some strings attached'.
#1. No strings. Trust Me.
#2. Trust you? That's it?
#1. Yep. Have I ever lied to you? It's a free gift. All you gotta do is unwrap it.
#2. What is the free gift?
#1. Eternal life.
#2. And if I refuse?
#1. I'll keep offering.
#2. Until when?
#1. Until you convince Me you despise and detest the very thought of living for ever with Me, then I will give you what you want.
#2. What do I want?
#1. There's only 2 alternatives.
KJV Deuteronomy 30:19
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live

:KJV John 5:24
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life
.

 

[Brakelite]

Incinerating them doesn't seem like love

It is love when you are actually delivering them from that which they would find torturous.

 

[Chadrho]

This is what I found in 1 Corinthians 15

1 Corinthians 15:22-23
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming . . .

Here the Apostle contrasts those "in Adam" with those "in Christ." Those "in Adam" all die. But those "In Christ" will be made alive.
Then the Apostle highlights and emp

hasizes the supremacy of Christ, noting that Christ was the first to be made alive, indicating his supremacy, then those who are Christ's will be made alive at his coming.

All are in Adam but not all are in Christ.

So sin abounds more than grace? It seems Paul contradicts himself. Adam's sin is more powerful, more successful in destroying than Christ's grace is in healing. That's not good news.

 

[Brakelite]

What sort of relationship is based on fear?

Not loving.

 

[Brakelite]

That's a noble view.
Why is the house burning and all exits but one blocked?
Seems there in no other rational choice.
Is salvation rational?

Right. That's the point. Glad you got it. Kudos.

Is mortifying fear a good reason for a relationship with God?
What sort of relationship is based on fear?

If God was content with people coming to Him out of fear, then He should have squished Lucifer/Satan right at the beginning of the rebellion and we could have done without all his theatrics right?

 

[Patrick1966]

Here the Apostle contrasts those "in Adam" with those "in Christ." Those "in Adam" all die. But those "In Christ" will be made alive.

Incorrect my friend.

 

[Patrick1966]

Unfortunately, not all will see the light to be saved.

How does one "see the light"?

 

[Brakelite]

I believe that Satan and the so-called "fallen" angels are doing EXACTLY what God intends for them to do. I also believe that they too will be saved and transformed by Jesus.

Revelation 14:10 esv
10 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

Remember, the word "torment" also means to test and is used in refining. And what is the purpose of sulfur? Sulfur is a refining agent. Satan will be refined and, as this scripture says, Jesus will supervise his refinement personally. Otherwise, what is his purpose for being there?

Satan doesn't want to be saved. He wants God's throne for goodness sake. It's a rebellion Patrick. A hard out guns blazing no holds barred irreconcilable conflict between good and evil, and Satan will never agree to terms. He had his opportunity and he confirmed his decision when he murdered God's Son. He doesn't deserve nor care about your sympathy and is likely laughing uproariously at your naivety. If it wasn't for God's protection, Satan would have killed you at birth.

 

[CadyandZoe]

How does one "see the light"?

The Holy Spirit opens the eyes and softens the heart. If Universalism were true, he would do that for everyone. He doesn't. Therefore Universalism isn't true.

 

[St. SteVen]

Your third response from #1 needs revision.
#2 "There must be some strings attached'.
#1. No strings. Trust Me.
#2. Trust you? That's it?
#1. Yep. Have I ever lied to you?

What happens if person #2 receives the "free gift"?
Will you wish them a happy forever and go on your way?

 

[St. SteVen]

It is love when you are actually delivering them from that which they would find torturous.

Did Jesus die to save us from God?

 

[St. SteVen]

Satan doesn't want to be saved.

Neither did we.
Christian dogma claims that we were born into condemnation, God's condemntion, right out of the chute.

 

[St. SteVen]

If God was content with people coming to Him out of fear...

Why should we assume that?