You're so ironic. lol
From post 164, "Altered and error filled translations by satan's will gives worship to one who has a God."
The Hell Doctrine - No doctrinal unity
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CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Here is an English translation with the Greek words in italics.
"And these will depart into eternal [αἰώνιον] punishment, but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιον] life.”
By inspection, I can see that Jesus used the same Greek word twice, once to mention eternal punishment and once to mention eternal life. Since the Lord draws a contrast between the final disposition of two groups, we understand that [αἰώνιον] should mean the same thing in either case.
But this leaves us with a problem many have already mentioned. Since one must be alive to experience "eternal punishment," how is that different from "eternal life"? The resolution to this apparent contradiction is resolved once we understand that Jesus intends to say something about the status of a person; regardless of what the person might experience. A man must be alive in order to experience punishment, but he doesn't need to be alive to have the legal status of "punished."
In other words, those who are permanently punished don't necessarily experience perpetual punishment. The state of eternal punishment is simply the inability to move beyond this life (age) into the next life (age.)
αἰώνιον [perpetual] is distinct from ἀΐδιος [eternal, everlasting.] That is, often times the word refers to anything that lists for a lifetime (not necessarily everlasting.) Anything that is [αἰώνιον] lasts for a lifetime. A man might have an [αἰώνιον] job, which means he can never be fired; he has his job for life. If a slave is freed, he can choose to leave, or he can choose to stay with the family. If he chooses to stay, he is considered a "son" [αἰώνιον] for the rest of his life.
The salient point is this. Once a slave becomes a son, his status as a "son" can never change. He is a son for as long as he lives, and if his life is everlasting then his status as "son" is everlasting.
Notice that it says "all men" and by that phrase he doesn't mean to exclude women or children. In other words "all men" doesn't mean "exclusively men." [I know you know this but I am making a point. :) ]
We derive the meaning of the phrase "all men" from the context, where Paul is asking us to pray for "Kings and rulers and all in authority." Here Paul the Apostle is exhorting men to live a quiet life, without being angry or anxious. He knows that men in particular are often perturbed by those in authority over them. Rather than get angry and upset about people in authority, Paul wants us to pray for them, because God desires that "all men" be saved. And by "all men" he means "don't forget to pray for those who get you upset. Don't exclude or forget anyone. Pray even for those who upset you.
In 1 Timothy 4:10, the phrase "all men" means the same thing. Paul isn't saying that God will save each and every man. He is saying that God will not ignore or dismiss someone based on their qualities or circumstances. God doesn't save every man, but he does save men from every race, nation, background, economic status or gender.
Patrick1966
Well-Known Member
That's exactly what he's saying. Jesus will save ALL people from forever death.
Patrick1966
Well-Known Member
My understanding is that the ages will end once we are all with God in his kingdom, so it is finite, but I'm open to being persuaded otherwise.
Patrick1966
Well-Known Member
@CadyandZoe
Here's another. All means all.
1 Corinthians 15:22 ESV
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
Here's another. All means all.
1 Corinthians 15:22 ESV
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Well, let's think this through for a second.
Doesn't the parable set up a contrast between "sheep" and "goats?" Why the contrast if God is going to save every man? Didn't Jesus set about to examine the differences between those who treated him well and those who didn't?
The gift of eternal life IS salvation from forever death. What happens to the goats if the sheep are granted eternal life (saved from forever death)? If the goats are saved from forever death, why draw the distinction? Does that make sense to you?
In my view, the comparison only works if "all men" doesn't indicate "every man." It works if "all men" indicates "every sort of man."
Patrick1966
Well-Known Member
Not all are saved from the Lake of Fire but all are saved from forever death. If that's untrue, then 1 Timothy 4:10, 1 Corinthians 15:22, and a whole bunch of other verses are false.
All the promises of salvation are CONDITIONAL upon believing in Jesus.
Mk 16 He that believeth not shall be DAMNED!
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
The second "all" is qualified by the phrase "in Christ," which indicates individuals who have chosen to follow Christ and live as his disciple.
Eternal destruction, eternal punishment, means never ending to me as it is eternal. People who experience this never escape from wherever they are for all eternity.
Eternal life means never ending, a life that goes on forever.
Jesus spoke of people who have passed from death into life once they believe in Him. They were dead before they believed, yet they had a conscious existence before being made eternally alive.
======================================
18 And when Jesus saw great multitudes about Him, He gave a command to depart to the other side. 19 Then a certain scribe came and said to Him, “Teacher, I will follow You wherever You go.”
20 And Jesus said to him, “Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head.”
21 Then another of His disciples said to Him, “Lord, let me first go and bury my father.”
22 But Jesus said to him, “Follow Me, and let the dead bury their own dead.”
Eternal life means never ending, a life that goes on forever.
Jesus spoke of people who have passed from death into life once they believe in Him. They were dead before they believed, yet they had a conscious existence before being made eternally alive.
Life and Judgment Are Through the Son
“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.======================================
18 And when Jesus saw great multitudes about Him, He gave a command to depart to the other side. 19 Then a certain scribe came and said to Him, “Teacher, I will follow You wherever You go.”
20 And Jesus said to him, “Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head.”
21 Then another of His disciples said to Him, “Lord, let me first go and bury my father.”
22 But Jesus said to him, “Follow Me, and let the dead bury their own dead.”
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
We have discussed each of these verses individually. In the New Testament, the word "all" doesn't always indicate "each and every". This is the same in English. The meaning of "all" depends on the context, especially because the Greek phrase "ta panta" (all things) is an idiomatic expression meaning, "everything we were just talking about." The scope of the Greek expression "ta panta:all things" is not universal or general; the scope is limited to the topic at hand.
Consider the following verse for instance,
Romans 14:2
One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only.
Here, in this context, the scope of "ta panta" is limited to food. Paul isn't suggesting that people are free to eat poison or rocks or anything other than food. The point is, for religious reasons, some people limit their diet to vegetables while others place no restrictions on their diet.
By contrast, the phrase "all men", derives meaning from the context. When the author intends to limit the scope of the phrase "all men" he qualifies the phrase with a descriptor.
1 Corinthians 15:12
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
Here the apostle limits the scope of those who will be made alive to those "in Christ."
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I agree. Some will experience the final age. But my point is broader than that. The New Testament calls it the Ages of the Ages due to the fact that the final age is substantially and qualitatively different.
In the first chapter of John's gospel, he doesn't use the term but he speaks about the Greek concept of "eudaimonia" roughly translated as "the state of human flourishing." Those who exist in that age will experience eudaimonia to a profound degree. John puts it this way,
John 1:4-5
"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
John refers to Jesus as "the Light of the world" which essentially indicates that Jesus shines a light on the possibility of the type of life indicated b the word "eudaimonia." The amazing story is this. His enemies almost destroyed the possibility that man would ever find the light that would lead to a life of human fulfillment. They tried to extinguish that light but they couldn't put it out.
Patrick1966
Well-Known Member
Correct and, eventually, ALL that ever lived will proclaim that Jesus is Lord! That's what 1 Corinthians 15 tells us.
Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Rev 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.'
Patrick1966
Well-Known Member
Amen. As Jesus said, the Gates of Hell will NOT stop Jesus's church nor will they prevent Jesus from saving ALL people. :)
Patrick1966
Well-Known Member
How did I misunderstand?
Rev 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.'
Patrick1966
Well-Known Member
That's not what Paul said. You are mischaracterizing the word of God to make it fit the false doctrine of forever punishment.
Here's another.
Isaiah 45: 23
By myself I have sworn from my mouth has gone out in righteousness a word that shall not return ‘To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance
So you think you can live in sin and be saved.
Mt 7 Narrow is the way that leads to life and FEW there be who find it.
Patrick1966
Well-Known Member
We've been through this numerous times. It's ok. It's not a salvational issue. You're not going to be condemned for believing that Jesus is an unforgiving sadist that tortures people forever.
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