If you came to grips with the fact that the Bible is not inerrant, would you toss the book? (I haven't)
The Hell Doctrine - No doctrinal unity
- Thread starter St. SteVen
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Patrick1966
Well-Known Member
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I understand the meaning of subjectivity. But I wasn't sure why you mentioned it. :)
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Actually He did!
Hebrews 10
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Patrick1966
Well-Known Member
Hebrews 10:26-31 ESV
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Here's my take.
It's clear that one should go to Christ in order to avoid the "Lake of Fire". Of course, the Bible tells us that people can NOT go to Christ unless God lets them. Going to Christ doesn't save believers from God the Father; it saves believers from the process that the wicked will have to endure otherwise known as the "Lake of Fire".
Let me offer an analogy. Take care of your teeth so that you won't need a root canal. The faithful do so and so are not in need of a root canal. The unfaithful ignore that command and, inevitably and for their own good, receive root canals.
My compliments to you Jack on that quality response to @St. SteVen question. Where I believe you are misled, my brother, is your belief in the false doctrine of forever punishment.
Patrick1966
Well-Known Member
Well, Jack, "eternal" actually means no beginning and no end. Only God is eternal.
And, have you noticed that in 2 Corinthians 4:4, most English translations use the Greek word for "the age" and translated it to "the world"?
2 Corinthians 4:4 ESV
Here is the Greek: 2 Corinthians 4:4 Greek Text Analysis
Why did they use the word "world" instead of "eternity" as they did in other scriptures? If they had the verse would say:
"In their case the god of this eternal has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."
So why didn't they use "eternal"? It's obvious that it wouldn't have made sense. So they changed it to "world".
Here is the KJV version:
"In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."
When PROPERLY translated, the verse reads like this:
2 Corinthians 4:4 CLNT
4 in whom the god of this eon blinds the apprehensions of the unbelieving so that the illumination of the evangel of the glory of Christ, Who is the Image of the invisible God, does not irradiate them.
Eternal punishment, eternal life. Same Greek word! NEVER ending! Unless you believe Christians don't have eternal life.
Again, same Greek word:
John 3
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
Hell is eternal!
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Yes, I agree with your definition and your observation. It can also mean "permanent," which is essentially the same.
If Patrick didn't have me on "ignore" I would say that "eternal punishment" doesn't necessarily mean constant and unending punishment. Most likely, it means "a permanent condition of being punished."
For instance, hypothetically speaking, if the punishment were, say, annihilation (not saying I agree with that but if) then the punishment would be permanent and therefore eternal in that sense.
@Patrick1966
Patrick1966
Well-Known Member
I encourage both you and Jack to consider if your engagement together is edifying and producing Godly fruit, or something else. I have a lot of people on "ignore" because I discovered that my engaging with them sometimes brought out a side of me that is not Godly. :)
Patrick1966
Well-Known Member
Ok. Let's try again. By the way, I only want to engage with friendly folks who are open to enhancing their understanding of God's word or can enhance mine. Let us love one another, share with one another, and agree to disagree at times while remembering what Jesus said, love one another.
Patrick1966
Well-Known Member
As you can see above, I shared the following with our brother Jack, but I don't believe he understands it. Perhaps you will. I'll post it again.
And, have you noticed that in 2 Corinthians 4:4, most English translations use the Greek word for "the age" and translated it to "world"?
2 Corinthians 4:4 ESV
2 Corinthians 4:4 Greek Text Analysis
Here is the Greek: 2 Corinthians 4:4 Greek Text Analysis
Why did they use the word "world" instead of "eternity" as they did in other scriptures? If they had the verse would say:
"In their case the god of this eternal has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."
So why didn't they use "eternal"? It's obvious that it wouldn't have made sense. So they changed it to "world".
Here is the KJV version:
"In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."
When PROPERLY translated, the verse reads like this:
2 Corinthians 4:4 CLNT
4 in whom the god of this eon blinds the apprehensions of the unbelieving so that the illumination of the evangel of the glory of Christ, Who is the Image of the invisible God, does not irradiate them.
Patrick1966
Well-Known Member
@CadyandZoe
Let's take a look at how the KJV translation contradicts itself due to inaccurate translations. Inaccurate translations result in inaccurate doctrines.
Matthew 25:46 KJV
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Ok. So some people go to "eternal" punishment. Fine. But wait a minute, let's look at the following verse from the same Bible.
1 Timothy 4:10 KJV
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
In Timothy, Paul says that Jesus is the savior of ALL men. It doesn't say that Jesus is the potential savior of all men, it says that Jesus IS the savior of ALL men.
So, @CadyandZoe, I must ask you, which verse is correct? They cannot BOTH be correct, so which is?
I can share more, but let's start here.
Let's take a look at how the KJV translation contradicts itself due to inaccurate translations. Inaccurate translations result in inaccurate doctrines.
Matthew 25:46 KJV
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Ok. So some people go to "eternal" punishment. Fine. But wait a minute, let's look at the following verse from the same Bible.
1 Timothy 4:10 KJV
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
In Timothy, Paul says that Jesus is the savior of ALL men. It doesn't say that Jesus is the potential savior of all men, it says that Jesus IS the savior of ALL men.
So, @CadyandZoe, I must ask you, which verse is correct? They cannot BOTH be correct, so which is?
I can share more, but let's start here.
Patrick1966
Well-Known Member
Patrick1966
Well-Known Member
From your link:
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
So I'll ask you. Of the two verses from your source, which one is correct?
Patrick1966
Well-Known Member
It's not a "big deal" to me. I'm just discussing doctrine and providing Biblical support. It's certainly ok with me if another doesn't believe exactly as I. :)
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Patrick,
I went back through the thread and couldn't ascertain the flow of the discussion. So my response may not apply to yours. For that I apologize.
Regarding the Greek word αἰών the word generally indicates an age, but sometimes it indicates a "period of existence," which is why the word is sometimes translated as "world." The words "world" and "age" share a common idea because an "age" is a period characterized by particular circumstances, events, or personages that exist during that time in the world. For this reason, one is correct to ask the question, "What was the world like during such and such an age?" One can ask about the antediluvian world or the technological world and it would mean the same thing as the antediluvian age, or the technological age. In these cases, "age" and "world" are synonymous.
Regarding the concept of eternal life; occasionally the New Testament speaks about "The Age of Ages," using the same Greek word.
Consider the following Greek Sentence.
εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων, ἀμήν.
Many translations render this as "forever and ever," but the literal reading is "unto the ages of ages, Amen." Just as before, the meaning not only includes the aspect of time; it also includes the aspect of conditions and circumstances characteristic of that time. Jesus often compares this age with the coming age, comparing how things are now with how things are going to be then.
The "ages of ages" will certainly never end. Still, the salient point is that the ages of ages will be qualitatively superior to any other age regarding human flourishing, happiness, fulfillment, and welfare.
Now, I'm almost sure that I didn't address what you were trying to say, so come back to me again if I missed it.
9 teachings from Jesus
Yes the words of the watchtower are correct that is the difference. Hey even a busted clock gets the time right twice a day! Even the Watchtower has biblical truths they did not or could not corrupt. But that is true of all the sects and cults that claim to be the one true representative of...
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Post 164
You're so filled with irony. lol
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